Author Topic: Gun Control  (Read 79465 times)

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Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #300 on: December 31, 2012, 11:34:03 am »
There are also the usual potential holes thanks to gun shows, private sales, and the internet in any system set up. Depending on how lot numbering of ammo is set up, it could be very hard to actually convict any violators.
This reminds me of an old question I had, is it actually legal to ship live ammo? I've heard of mail order and internet purchasing, but that seems like a rather bad idea.

And the anti-reg people can suck my nuts. I have little intention to infringe, I just want to know who has the damn things so when someone uses one I can figure out where it came from.
The legalities seem to vary state to state from the little bit that I looked at. It's also legal here in Canada. I pulled this from Le Baron a well established vendor who have been around since I was a kid.

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5. Shipping and Delivery
All orders less than 30 kg are shipped by Expedited Parcel Post. If you have a preferred method of transport, please indicate. Orders over 30 kg., will be shipped by the most economical transport. Firearms will be shipped via Canada Post, and to Canadian residents only. Ammunition and related products will be shipped via licensed carrier, and to Canadian residents only.


6. Firearms and Ammunition Ordering
To purchase a firearm, you must provide a valid Possession and Acquisition Licence (P.A.L.) number, along with your birth-date, place of birth, and permit holder's address. To purchase ammunition you must provide a valid P.A.L. or a Possession Ownership Licence (P.O.L.).
Please note that these products can only be shipped to the permit holder's address. Firearms and hazardous materials cannot be shipped outside of Canada.

Sounds like they treat it pretty much like any other potentially hazardous to transport material.

Offline Damen

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #301 on: December 31, 2012, 01:53:20 pm »
And here's a thought, any objections to requiring a gun license to be presented to purchase ammo? Edit: By which I mean a license for a gun using the desired ammo.

On it's face I really have no objections to it but there are aspects of it that give me pause for how it would work and one aspect that would worry me.

See, my own state, Oklahoma, is one of a few where we don't require people to register their firearms or get a license to own them and the only way this would work is if a law were passed at a Federal level requiring firearms to be registered. Otherwise, it'd likely end up near illegal for the vast majority of citizens to purchase ammunition in the states where they don't require registration. And normally, I don't have a problem with registration, but the only way I could support it at the Federal level is if a law is passed that the personal information of registered firearm owners is to remain confidential to prevent abuses of that info like this one.

If we can resolve those issues, I'd have no real problems with it.

This reminds me of an old question I had, is it actually legal to ship live ammo? I've heard of mail order and internet purchasing, but that seems like a rather bad idea.

Yeah, it's legal, but like Mojo said, it varies by state. The states known for strict gun-control, for example, don't allow it. But for the majority of the USA, it can be shipped, but you have to pay an extra fee because it's considered a hazardous material.
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Offline MaybeNever

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #302 on: December 31, 2012, 01:57:37 pm »
Read first two posts, then last two posts.

Thread goes from image of Navy SEALs killing bin Laden to a discussion of shipping and transport logistics.
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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #303 on: December 31, 2012, 02:24:54 pm »
the only way this would work is if a law were passed at a Federal level requiring firearms to be registered. Otherwise, it'd likely end up near illegal for the vast majority of citizens to purchase ammunition in the states where they don't require registration.
My assumptions are generally at the fed level, as state level just means you go a state over to buy the weapons/ammo.

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And normally, I don't have a problem with registration, but the only way I could support it at the Federal level is if a law is passed that the personal information of registered firearm owners is to remain confidential to prevent abuses of that info like this one.

If we can resolve those issues, I'd have no real problems with it.
Here's my thing, why shouldn't it be public information that someone has a weapons permit? I see claims of omg someone's gonna steal my guns or such, I might even lean toward it being a privacy issue, if it didn't involve something you could kill your neighbor with from your living never leaving the living room to do it.

I'm reasonably sure the information is public in NY and this is just someone making a map out of it. Which does a lovely job of pointing out just how damn many guns there are out there, even in NY which is a pretty restrictive state on ownership. Without even going into Westchester county itself.

Offline Damen

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #304 on: December 31, 2012, 02:56:59 pm »
And normally, I don't have a problem with registration, but the only way I could support it at the Federal level is if a law is passed that the personal information of registered firearm owners is to remain confidential to prevent abuses of that info like this one.

If we can resolve those issues, I'd have no real problems with it.
Here's my thing, why shouldn't it be public information that someone has a weapons permit? I see claims of omg someone's gonna steal my guns or such, I might even lean toward it being a privacy issue, if it didn't involve something you could kill your neighbor with from your living never leaving the living room to do it.

I'm reasonably sure the information is public in NY and this is just someone making a map out of it. Which does a lovely job of pointing out just how damn many guns there are out there, even in NY which is a pretty restrictive state on ownership. Without even going into Westchester county itself.

As it stands getting that information requires a FOIA request, so while it is technically publicly available, it isn't readily available...until now.

And as for why it shouldn't be public knowledge?

  • This is a list of law-abiding citizens, not criminals.
  • Criminals now have a map of which houses are armed and which aren't.
  • Yes, the fear of a stolen firearms is a perfectly valid one, considering they are some of the most nabbed items.
  • This map does nothing to locate illicit firearms.
  • This map does not show us which criminals have firearms.
  • This map only serves to stigmatize lawful firearm owners when the only other group of people we do that to are registered sex offenders.
  • A number of the people on this map are police officers and people under protective orders who are now worried that their abusers and criminals with a grudge will now have an easy way to track them down.
  • When both the NRA and the Brady Campaign say it's a bad idea, then you can be pretty sure it's a bad fucking idea.

If they wanted to say how many permits are in any given county, or how many of whatever type of firearm are in a county, I'd have no problems with that. But a map with names and addresses of lawful firearm owners? No, that's going way too far, plain and simple.
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Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #305 on: December 31, 2012, 03:19:28 pm »
And normally, I don't have a problem with registration, but the only way I could support it at the Federal level is if a law is passed that the personal information of registered firearm owners is to remain confidential to prevent abuses of that info like this one.

If we can resolve those issues, I'd have no real problems with it.
Here's my thing, why shouldn't it be public information that someone has a weapons permit? I see claims of omg someone's gonna steal my guns or such, I might even lean toward it being a privacy issue, if it didn't involve something you could kill your neighbor with from your living never leaving the living room to do it.

I'm reasonably sure the information is public in NY and this is just someone making a map out of it. Which does a lovely job of pointing out just how damn many guns there are out there, even in NY which is a pretty restrictive state on ownership. Without even going into Westchester county itself.

As it stands getting that information requires a FOIA request, so while it is technically publicly available, it isn't readily available...until now.

And as for why it shouldn't be public knowledge?

  • This is a list of law-abiding citizens, not criminals.
  • Criminals now have a map of which houses are armed and which aren't.
  • Yes, the fear of a stolen firearms is a perfectly valid one, considering they are some of the most nabbed items.
  • This map does nothing to locate illicit firearms.
  • This map does not show us which criminals have firearms.
  • This map only serves to stigmatize lawful firearm owners when the only other group of people we do that to are registered sex offenders.
  • A number of the people on this map are police officers and people under protective orders who are now worried that their abusers and criminals with a grudge will now have an easy way to track them down.
  • When both the NRA and the Brady Campaign say it's a bad idea, then you can be pretty sure it's a bad fucking idea.

If they wanted to say how many permits are in any given county, or how many of whatever type of firearm are in a county, I'd have no problems with that. But a map with names and addresses of lawful firearm owners? No, that's going way too far, plain and simple.

I compare it to publishing a map of people who use marijuana. While there are some people who use marijuana irresponsibly, the vast majority of marijuana users and growers are doing what they do for benign, beneficial, or even necessary reasons. In the same way, while there are some irresponsible gun owners, the vast majority of them practice gun safety. They have not committed any crime. However, it is a huge security risk for marijuana users and growers to have their information posted on the internet. While legal under my state's law, people who have a lot of marijuana are already prone to break-ins and robberies if news of their stash gets around. Marijuana plants are worth a lot on the black market and people are willing to break in and steal them instead of acquire them legally. In the same way, publishing where the legal guns are on the internet is just going to give criminals a way to easily find target homes to break in to.

I know there's a bunch of hysterical parents defending this invasion of privacy, saying "I HAZ THE RITE TO KNO IF THERES A GUN IN THE HOUSE." No, you don't. Owning a legal gun, like taking legal marijuana, is a private choice that people make in their private lives. You don't get to expose people's private lives to the entire fucking world just because you're terrified that gun owners will eat Dorothy and her little dog too.

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Just because information is public does not make it newsworthy. People own guns for a wide range of law-abiding reasons. If you are not breaking the law, there is no compelling reason to publish the data.

    Publishing gun owners’ names makes them targets for theft or public ridicule. It is journalistic arrogance to abuse public record privilege, just as it is to air 911 calls for no reason or to publish the home addresses of police or judges without cause.

    Unwarranted publishing of the names of permitted owners just encourages gun owners to skip the permitting.

http://www.poynter.org/latest-news/mediawire/199148/newspaper-publishes-names-addresses-of-gun-owners/

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #306 on: December 31, 2012, 04:21:35 pm »
My problem here is weed can't kill you from across the street.

How many of the school shootings or other recent big gun crimes were comitted with illegal guns? How many with legal ones?

The point right now is that you don't need to have an illegal gun to be the prick that's out shooting people. You can have a perfectly legal one and decide to shoot someone, or have a perfectly legal one someone takes, shoots you, and then proceeds to shoot up a number of other people.

Guns are weapons, effective ones. Why do we not treat or consider them as such?

Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #307 on: December 31, 2012, 04:29:22 pm »
My problem here is weed can't kill you from across the street.

How many of the school shootings or other recent big gun crimes were comitted with illegal guns? How many with legal ones?

The point right now is that you don't need to have an illegal gun to be the prick that's out shooting people. You can have a perfectly legal one and decide to shoot someone, or have a perfectly legal one someone takes, shoots you, and then proceeds to shoot up a number of other people.

Guns are weapons, effective ones. Why do we not treat or consider them as such?

And that justifies treating all gun owners like potential trigger-happy child killers... how? Oh, wait. It doesn't.
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Offline Damen

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #308 on: December 31, 2012, 04:36:47 pm »
I want to return your attention to my list:

  • This is a list of law-abiding citizens, not criminals.
  • Criminals now have a map of which houses are armed and which aren't.
  • Yes, the fear of a stolen firearms is a perfectly valid one, considering they are some of the most nabbed items.
  • This map does nothing to locate illicit firearms.
  • This map does not show us which criminals have firearms.
  • This map only serves to stigmatize lawful firearm owners when the only other group of people we do that to are registered sex offenders.
  • A number of the people on this map are police officers and people under protective orders who are now worried that their abusers and criminals with a grudge will now have an easy way to track them down.
  • When both the NRA and the Brady Campaign say it's a bad idea, then you can be pretty sure it's a bad fucking idea.

The problem with this list is that it lumps all firearm owners into the same category: ticking time bombs waiting to go off. It demonizes people who have done nothing wrong. It does not point out who is at risk of shooting up a public place, it does not point out who has mental problems and owns a firearm, it does not point out anything of any value.

This map serves ZERO positive purpose.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 03:59:13 pm by Damen »
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Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #309 on: December 31, 2012, 06:24:49 pm »
We get upset when the sex offender registry lumps 16 year olds who were consensually sexting each other in with repeat child molesters even though they are in fact in violation of the law. What makes it right to try and stigmatize a bunch of law abiding citizens? Not "what makes it legal?" what makes it right?

Offline Stormwarden

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #310 on: December 31, 2012, 10:55:52 pm »
I'm with Damen. When the NRA AND the Brady Campaign agree on ANYTHING, then maybe one should take notice. The mapping is a bad idea, especially given that most of them are law-abiding citizens. Even Type III weapon license holders(for the really heavy ordinance) aren't subject to that level of surveillance. Cops are free to search the premises with that license, but don't usually deign to keep it under surveillance.

Maybe the fact that I hate that we're becoming a surveillance state colors my bias a little. To me, surveillance isn't the solution, it's part of the problem along with the militarization of law enforcement.


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Offline MaybeNever

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #311 on: December 31, 2012, 11:24:28 pm »
Maybe the fact that I hate that we're becoming a surveillance state colors my bias a little. To me, surveillance isn't the solution, it's part of the problem along with the militarization of law enforcement.

Whoa, easy there. You should watch what you say about the surveillance state. At least until Big Brother can do it for you.
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #312 on: January 01, 2013, 12:03:06 am »
You have a right to privacy. A newspaper needs to make a very good public interest justification to beat that right, which I don't think has been made. My understanding is that the stuff was already reasonably publicly available, meaning that people could find the information if they wanted it. All publicising it did was, as people have pointed out, stigmatize people who are obeying the law and make it easier for small-time criminals to steal weapons.
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Offline Stormwarden

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #313 on: January 01, 2013, 01:53:38 am »
MaybeNever: Big Brother can go fuck himself, and if he needs a pike to do so, I'll make one.


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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #314 on: January 01, 2013, 06:05:32 am »
Maybe the fact that I hate that we're becoming a surveillance state colors my bias a little. To me, surveillance isn't the solution, it's part of the problem along with the militarization of law enforcement.

Whoa, easy there. You should watch what you say about the surveillance state. At least until Big Brother can do it for you.

Haha, that gave me a good laugh. Your wit is a beautiful thing, MN.