American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?

[TheL]

On the subject of generational differences, I feel I should point out that people tend to get more conservative as they age. The baby boomer generation, those supposedly evil arch-conservatives who're the last obstacle between us and a youth-led progressive golden age? They're the Woodstock generation. They're the people who were hippies back in the 60's, fucking anything with a pulse, smoking whatever'll burn, not showering and singing about peace and love. They're the people behind the anti-Vietnam war movement for god's sake.

If any of you think the same thing that happened to every other generation won't happen to ours, once we get a bit older and wealthier, well, then you're incredibly naive to say the least.

Wealthier?  You seriously think our generation is ever going to be wealthier, as hellbent as the upper class is on devouring everything lately?

[Art Vandelay]

On the subject of generational differences, I feel I should point out that people tend to get more conservative as they age. The baby boomer generation, those supposedly evil arch-conservatives who're the last obstacle between us and a youth-led progressive golden age? They're the Woodstock generation. They're the people who were hippies back in the 60's, fucking anything with a pulse, smoking whatever'll burn, not showering and singing about peace and love. They're the people behind the anti-Vietnam war movement for god's sake.

If any of you think the same thing that happened to every other generation won't happen to ours, once we get a bit older and wealthier, well, then you're incredibly naive to say the least.

Wealthier?  You seriously think our generation is ever going to be wealthier, as hellbent as the upper class is on devouring everything lately?

Yeah, generally that's what happens. People advance in their careers as they get experience, get to know the right people and jobs open up in higher positions due to older folks retiring, not to mention the simple act of saving over the course of a lifetime really adds up. Rather cute though that you think the rich were any less ruthless and money-hungry in the past than they are now.

That reminds me, when my father was younger, apparently people thought that his generation would never be able to afford to buy property, at least not in Sydney. Funny how that turned out.

[Her3tiK]

On the subject of generational differences, I feel I should point out that people tend to get more conservative as they age. The baby boomer generation, those supposedly evil arch-conservatives who're the last obstacle between us and a youth-led progressive golden age? They're the Woodstock generation. They're the people who were hippies back in the 60's, fucking anything with a pulse, smoking whatever'll burn, not showering and singing about peace and love. They're the people behind the anti-Vietnam war movement for god's sake.

If any of you think the same thing that happened to every other generation won't happen to ours, once we get a bit older and wealthier, well, then you're incredibly naive to say the least.

Wealthier?  You seriously think our generation is ever going to be wealthier, as hellbent as the upper class is on devouring everything lately?

Yeah, generally that's what happens. People advance in their careers as they get experience, get to know the right people and jobs open up in higher positions due to older folks retiring, not to mention the simple act of saving over the course of a lifetime really adds up. Rather cute though that you think the rich were any less ruthless and money-hungry in the past than they are now.

That reminds me, when my father was younger, apparently people thought that his generation would never be able to afford to buy property, at least not in Sydney. Funny how that turned out.

Yeah.... I don't know many people in my generation who are making rent and student loan payments, or not on food stamps, never mind a savings account. And now, thanks to Obamacare's business mandate, nobody hiring part time jobs (which my generation should still be using for the most part) won't put anyone to work for enough hours to qualify for said benefits. These same places tend to want open availability, which makes juggling two of them incredibly difficult, assuming you can land a 2nd job. I'd love to believe the whole "it gets better" line, but at this point, after 2yrs of un- or under-employment, with the only jobs I've got being because my parents know people, I'm not inclined to believe it. The fact that I appear to be one of the lucky ones somewhat terrifies me.

[Art Vandelay]

Yeah.... I don't know many people in my generation who are making rent and student loan payments, or not on food stamps, never mind a savings account. And now, thanks to Obamacare's business mandate, nobody hiring part time jobs (which my generation should still be using for the most part) won't put anyone to work for enough hours to qualify for said benefits. These same places tend to want open availability, which makes juggling two of them incredibly difficult, assuming you can land a 2nd job. I'd love to believe the whole "it gets better" line, but at this point, after 2yrs of un- or under-employment, with the only jobs I've got being because my parents know people, I'm not inclined to believe it. The fact that I appear to be one of the lucky ones somewhat terrifies me.

America is kind of only just beginning to recover from a rather nasty recession right now, so in the mean time things are difficult. That will change, though, just give it maybe five more years at the very most and things will be booming once again (no doubt with the Republicans back in power and taking all the credit for the business cycle simply running its course, but I digress).

If you really think things will never improve, just look at the 30's and 40's. Great Depression followed by the rise of fascism and WWII, then followed by probably the biggest and longest economic boom that America has ever seen.

[Her3tiK]

Yeah.... I don't know many people in my generation who are making rent and student loan payments, or not on food stamps, never mind a savings account. And now, thanks to Obamacare's business mandate, nobody hiring part time jobs (which my generation should still be using for the most part) won't put anyone to work for enough hours to qualify for said benefits. These same places tend to want open availability, which makes juggling two of them incredibly difficult, assuming you can land a 2nd job. I'd love to believe the whole "it gets better" line, but at this point, after 2yrs of un- or under-employment, with the only jobs I've got being because my parents know people, I'm not inclined to believe it. The fact that I appear to be one of the lucky ones somewhat terrifies me.

America is kind of only just beginning to recover from a rather nasty recession right now, so in the mean time things are difficult. That will change, though, just give it maybe five more years at the very most and things will be booming once again (no doubt with the Republicans back in power and taking all the credit for the business cycle simply running its course, but I digress).

If you really think things will never improve, just look at the 30's and 40's. Great Depression followed by the rise of fascism and WWII, then followed by probably the biggest and longest economic boom that America has ever seen.

That was the spoils of a wartime economy and Europe being ravaged, so there wasn't really competition until they rebuilt and Asia modernized. Not quite the route I want to follow to recovery.

[Art Vandelay]

That was the spoils of a wartime economy and Europe being ravaged, so there wasn't really competition until they rebuilt and Asia modernized. Not quite the route I want to follow to recovery.

Bad example, I suppose. Still, the depression itself and the brief upturn before the war (which no doubt would've continued had war not broken out) still stands. Or I suppose you could look at pretty much any other recession in history. Granted, there's not many as severe as this one, but regardless of size, they never last more than maybe 6-7 years at the very most before things pick up again.

[Her3tiK]

That was the spoils of a wartime economy and Europe being ravaged, so there wasn't really competition until they rebuilt and Asia modernized. Not quite the route I want to follow to recovery.

Bad example, I suppose. Still, the depression itself and the brief upturn before the war (which no doubt would've continued had war not broken out) still stands. Or I suppose you could look at pretty much any other recession in history. Granted, there's not many as severe as this one, but regardless of size, they never last more than maybe 6-7 years at the very most before things pick up again.

I'm afraid I'm too much of a cynic to agree, though I'd love survivalists like my mother to be proven completely wrong. I just don't see it happening with other world events being taken into account.

[Art Vandelay]

That was the spoils of a wartime economy and Europe being ravaged, so there wasn't really competition until they rebuilt and Asia modernized. Not quite the route I want to follow to recovery.

Bad example, I suppose. Still, the depression itself and the brief upturn before the war (which no doubt would've continued had war not broken out) still stands. Or I suppose you could look at pretty much any other recession in history. Granted, there's not many as severe as this one, but regardless of size, they never last more than maybe 6-7 years at the very most before things pick up again.

I'm afraid I'm too much of a cynic to agree, though I'd love survivalists like my mother to be proven completely wrong. I just don't see it happening with other world events being taken into account.

Just have a read of this Wikipedia article. Recessions, even large ones like now, are simply temporary and a normal part of the economy.

[Lt. Fred]

Yeah.... I don't know many people in my generation who are making rent and student loan payments, or not on food stamps, never mind a savings account. And now, thanks to Obamacare's business mandate, nobody hiring part time jobs (which my generation should still be using for the most part) won't put anyone to work for enough hours to qualify for said benefits. These same places tend to want open availability, which makes juggling two of them incredibly difficult, assuming you can land a 2nd job. I'd love to believe the whole "it gets better" line, but at this point, after 2yrs of un- or under-employment, with the only jobs I've got being because my parents know people, I'm not inclined to believe it. The fact that I appear to be one of the lucky ones somewhat terrifies me.

America is kind of only just beginning to recover from a rather nasty recession right now, so in the mean time things are difficult. That will change, though, just give it maybe five more years at the very most and things will be booming once again (no doubt with the Republicans back in power and taking all the credit for the business cycle simply running its course, but I digress).

If you really think things will never improve, just look at the 30's and 40's. Great Depression followed by the rise of fascism and WWII, then followed by probably the biggest and longest economic boom that America has ever seen.

That was the spoils of a wartime economy and Europe being ravaged, so there wasn't really competition until they rebuilt and Asia modernized. Not quite the route I want to follow to recovery.

Trade is not zero-sum. The US recovered from the Great Depression because FDR chose for it to recover. Obama has chosen not.

[Witchyjoshy]

Trade is not zero-sum. The US recovered from the Great Depression because FDR chose for it to recover. Obama has chosen not.

Mind elaborating there, bucko?

[Lt. Fred]

Trade is not zero-sum. The US recovered from the Great Depression because FDR chose for it to recover. Obama has chosen not.

Mind elaborating there, bucko?

Trade is (usually) good for everyone in the short run, both the buyer and the seller. It'd wrong to assume that the collapse of America's massive export market in Germany, France and Asia was of benefit to the US economy. Probably there were both positive and negative effects, with the negative strongly outweighing positive. Demand = government spending + private spending + balance of trade, so a reduction in exports would have worsened the recession.

Well, why did the US recover? Massive government stimulus. Trillions of dollars of it.

[m52nickerson]

Trade is not zero-sum. The US recovered from the Great Depression because FDR chose for it to recover. Obama has chosen not.

For all his work FDR did not get the US out of the depression.  He was still trying to balance the budget even during the new deal.  It was the war, spending and results that finally ended the depression.

Second, the President does need congress to act if he wants spending bills passed.

[lord gibbon]

Trade is not zero-sum. The US recovered from the Great Depression because FDR chose for it to recover. Obama has chosen not.

For all his work FDR did not get the US out of the depression.  He was still trying to balance the budget even during the new deal.  It was the war, spending and results that finally ended the depression.

Second, the President does need congress to act if he wants spending bills passed.

That is precisely the problem. I think the President is TRYING to fix the economy, but since that would be a success for him, congress has decided to prevent that from happening. In other words, it's the age old republican rallying cry "Fuck the Poor!"

[Lt. Fred]

Trade is not zero-sum. The US recovered from the Great Depression because FDR chose for it to recover. Obama has chosen not.

For all his work FDR did not get the US out of the depression.  He was still trying to balance the budget even during the new deal.

Hence the 1936 recession. FDR's decision to throw caution to the wind and spend up big in 1939/40 ended the depression.

Second, the President does need congress to act if he wants spending bills passed.

Obviously. However, he can veto spending cuts. Had Obama done so (and provided aid to the States so they didn't need to lay off teachers and so on) the unemployment rate would be around 5%.

[ironbite]

How do you.....

Ironbite-oh god please just stop.