FSTDT Forums
General Category => Suggestion Box => Topic started by: Lithp on February 06, 2012, 03:11:18 pm
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Premise: F&B basically contains 2 types of threads~threads bitching about outside problems, & threads bitching about other users.
For the most part, the former category runs pretty smoothly. The latter...not so much. It's pretty much seen as an instant dramawhoring attempt, making people by & large try to avoid doing it until things absolutely explode, often choosing to keep going at it in the original thread. That runs counter to the point of allowing people to do that in the first place. At the same time, it would be stupid to start a thread over every little slight, especially because they ARE so prone to just becoming "Fuck you, you fucking dick."
It seems to me that adding some criteria to making a thread that attacks a user is the best way to avoid...that. And many of them are unspoken already.
1. The big one that occurs to me is, it should be an issue multiple people are having. If it's just you & Jack, & no one else has shown particilar interest in yours or Jack's problems, it's something that should really be settled via PM. If it's you against several other users, that still counts, because it's still a community issue. But it has to be a clear conflict.
2. There should be some level of logic to these. "You're an asshole" is something no one can argue effectively. Instead, the thread should be devoted to giving reasons for a position that is arguable. But that doesn't mean you need to forego insults entirely. A good example would be, "You back-pedaled here, here, & here; justified slavery here, & told me to go die here, which is a violation of Da Rules. You asshole."
I just think F&B is a good tool to manage issues with other users, because truth be told, flame wars seldom occur in a vaccuum. However, I think we've been using it very, very wrong.
So since the way the site is run is being re-examined, I felt it was a good idea to cast my hand in there, & see where it gets us. Feel free to point out flaws with the approach, add ideas, & comment as necessary.
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Don’t really have any comments on what you said at this point, Lithp, but I do want to register agreement with the general premise.
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I think that flaming other users in F&B should be outright banned. If a user has a problem with another user's behavior, they should take it up with a mod.
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I kind of thought that flames were, you know, the point of the forum called "Flame and Burn".
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Yeah, but flaming other users in F&B never causes rational discussion. It causes drama and bitching. What starts out as a simply rant turns into a thread where, sooner or later, everyone will violate the "Don't be a dick rule."
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This. Everyone ends up taking their drama to the F&B thread. Though I do still think one form of user-directed flaming is acceptable, and that's the "this thread is devolving, let's pick it up and move it somewhere else" thing. If you're having a private disagreement, by all means take it to the mods or a PM. But if we have, say, another incident like the one with Cestle, where the drama wasn't strictly private but getting out of hand, then I say the thread should get split at the start of the argument and dumped in F&B.
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Yeah, but flaming other users in F&B never causes rational discussion. It causes drama and bitching. What starts out as a simply rant turns into a thread where, sooner or later, everyone will violate the "Don't be a dick rule."
That's why the rules are heavily relaxed in F&B. Off the top of my head I can think of only one time when someone got banned for something they said in F&B. That was jokingly telling someone to commit suicide.
I think that F&B does serve a good purpose. Sometimes people are going to butt heads and when you're trying to have a civil discussion or debate a private spot for them to have it out is good, rather than in the middle of the debate or conversation.
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User-bashing threads lead to drama, drama leads to a lot of hurt feelings on both sides, and that's terrible. It can all simply be avoided if users took up their issues with mods.
User-bashing is not a spectator sport.
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Most of the threads in F&B that involve other users are about issues the mods can't really deal with. The threads tend to be A is a poppyhead because of X,Y, and Z, and not due to rule breaking. What can a mod do if there's no rule breaking going on?
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The point is that the drama leads to rule-breaking that could have been avoided if user-bashing threads were banned in the first place.
Hell, if the LHM thread and the Vene thread were destroyed the second they popped up, the flame war would not have continued to this point. As for the original threads they spun off of, well, the mods can simply delete the derails and order everyone back on topic, no?
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Wait. Would this mean I can no longer say, "Let's you and him fight?"
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As for the original threads they spun off of, well, the mods can simply delete the derails and order everyone back on topic, no?
But sometimes they aren't actual derails. The Cestle thread was on topic, he just kept going in circles and refused to answer honestly.
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That wasn't a "flame cestle" thread. It was asking a legitimate question and he refused to answer and behaved dickishly.
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And this point has been previously addressed.
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I just think that if a dispute reaches a point where personal attacks are being made, the users should be warned until they are no longer acting like dicks. It does not justify a derail thread that is expressly for the purpose of being a dick.
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F&B is to keep the drama outside of the normal forum. It offers a place to vent and get it all out without disturbing/derailing threads. There will always be drama, I'd rather have it in one area and not jam up the main sections. I would not take the events of last night and consider it the norm, especially considering your short(er) stint (comparatively) with fstdt, WW. I'm not trying to dismiss you on time spent here, only pointing out you may not know of the many prior issues taken to F&B.
Believe it or not, F&B has also calmed angry users down, that doesn't mean everyone agreed with each other in the end, but they also didn't generally hold a grudge or follow the "arguee" around the rest of the forum. Yes we get exceptions, yes they get banned, but that's near impossible to prevent regardless of rules.
There should be some level of logic to these. "You're an asshole" is something no one can argue effectively. Instead, the thread should be devoted to giving reasons for a position that is arguable. But that doesn't mean you need to forego insults entirely. A good example would be, "You back-pedaled here, here, & here; justified slavery here, & told me to go die here, which is a violation of Da Rules. You asshole.
This seems to have been lost in translation in the move. Or it slowly happened starting on the proboard and then to the new board. I'm not really sure. Agreeing with the need for some logical basis for the heated thread, but F&B should still serve the purpose of a venting area as you said, not foregoing insults entirely.
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I kind of like the users flaming each other stuff in F&B. I always assumed that's why it was there. I like that we have a whole section to keep that kind of crap from the other threads. Let's face it, the issues that we discuss here tend to generate feelings that run the entire spectrum and sometimes the discussions can get heated. And I like that we have our own trash can to dump the off shooting stuff in. Of course, we as a group could probably do a better job doing that.
Edit: Ninja'd. When personal attacks are being made, F&B is a pretty good place for them. Without knowing how it's done, I'm sure it can't be too hard for one of our mods to kick whatever to a separate thread. Or even better, make a separate thread after a PM from a mod/jr. mod/regular poster.
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Hell, if the LHM thread and the Vene thread were destroyed the second they popped up, the flame war would not have continued to this point. As for the original threads they spun off of, well, the mods can simply delete the derails and order everyone back on topic, no?
The flame wars may have been stopped but they would have just resurfaced later and/or taken over the other threads in the main part of the forum.
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Yeah, I'm going to have to go with the "F&B flame threads are a necessary evil" side on this one.
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Yeah, I'm going to have to go with the "F&B flame threads are a necessary evil" side on this one.
I agree with this. F&B is there for a reason, and I think there'd be too much unresolved crap that has a high probability of appearing in other threads.
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Hell, in the two years I've been here, I've seen countless flame threads come and go, and only a handful have resulted in drama blowouts (most of which weren't on the same scale as the recent unpleasantness). For a smallish forum which routinely handles controversial subjects and thrives on debate, I'd say that's a pretty good track record.
I dislike flame wars, but I'd rather that people had a place to vent their frustrations and sort their shit out in the open than have an endless cycle of people bottling things up until they explode in a massive drama bomb.
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Hell, in the two years I've been here, I've seen countless flame threads come and go, and only a handful have resulted in drama blowouts
Thank you, this is exactly what I was going to say to counter Wykked's point. Most user flame threads don't go anywhere particularly bad. In fact, most just degenerate into LOLCats after a while. And of the ones that DO get ugly, more often than not, the only thing that happens is that someone who had it coming gets a warning or a ban.
And the guidelines I proposed are based off of observations of the threads that "work."
Now, you might THINK that getting rid of F&B will get rid of drama. However, there are hundreds of boards without any F&B section, which DO function on a no-flaming policy. Does it get rid of drama? Hell no. It arguably makes it worse, & you DEFINITELY end up with more moderator action. On most forums, I can get a warning for going, "Fuck, that's stupid." And after two or three warnings, I'd get banned. I don't think that's a good alternative.
Like any experimental section, there are frequent debates as to whether or not F&B should be eliminated. But I think Rookie said it best:
And I like that we have our own trash can to dump the off shooting stuff in. Of course, we as a group could probably do a better job doing that.