Author Topic: Video Game Thread 2.0  (Read 1509940 times)

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Offline Askold

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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1740 on: February 18, 2013, 01:33:56 am »
The only game from that series I've played is Red faction 2...

On PS2...

There were some impressive things about it. I liked the destructible world and every now and then the story and the whole atmosphere of the game was good, but mostly the game was dissapointing.

Later I did find out that it was considered the worst of the series.


In other non-news I've gone back to playing Fallout: New Vegas. I'm planning to do the Legion quests this time. (Usually I just don't LIKE playing evil characters but I have missed much of the game because of that.)
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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1741 on: February 18, 2013, 06:53:28 am »
I've started a playthrough of the original Deus Ex. This time, I hope to actually finish the damn thing.

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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1742 on: February 18, 2013, 08:28:57 am »
I've started a playthrough of the original Deus Ex. This time, I hope to actually finish the damn thing.
I've got to admit, after playing human revolution it doesn't feel like the world shattering game it once did.

Though it could be I just suck at it.

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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1743 on: February 18, 2013, 10:42:45 am »
I keep getting mauled by things in Far Cry 3.

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Offline ThunderWulf

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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1744 on: February 18, 2013, 10:45:58 am »
The only game from that series I've played is Red faction 2...

On PS2...

There were some impressive things about it. I liked the destructible world and every now and then the story and the whole atmosphere of the game was good, but mostly the game was dissapointing.

Later I did find out that it was considered the worst of the series.

Yeah, the original blew RF2 out of the water.
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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1745 on: February 18, 2013, 06:55:20 pm »
I've started a playthrough of the original Deus Ex. This time, I hope to actually finish the damn thing.
I've got to admit, after playing human revolution it doesn't feel like the world shattering game it once did.
I suppose great strides have been made in yellow screen filters since the original.

That said, the AI is utterly moronic. You can be directly in front of them, and chances are they won't actually spot you for a good ten seconds.

Offline chitoryu12

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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1746 on: February 18, 2013, 07:34:45 pm »
I've started a playthrough of the original Deus Ex. This time, I hope to actually finish the damn thing.
I've got to admit, after playing human revolution it doesn't feel like the world shattering game it once did.

Though it could be I just suck at it.

Well, Deus Ex hasn't really aged well. I think Human Revolution is such a great game because it took all of the stuff that made the original great (some level of free roaming, many different choices and possibilities for how missions can go, plenty of side missions, limited inventory, weapon and augmentation modification, good emphasis on talking, complexity in the world and storyline, ability for non-fatal resolution to almost every encounter, etc.) and added on the advances made in modern gaming (somewhat workable cover system, weapons don't have ridiculous inaccuracy past sneezing distance unless you spend skill points on "training", regenerating health instead of being stuck in a rut and having to restart from an earlier point because you're too weak and don't have enough health items to go on, etc.). Deus Ex does what made it unique better than many modern games, but it's also undeniably primitive in the gameplay sense.

Of course, a lot of rabid fanboys don't seem to have played the original game either. They criticize Human Revolution for requiring you to kill certain enemies in boss fights instead of being able to non-violently sneak past them or knock them out (the original also required that, though you could learn their kill phrases and just blow them up without fighting), or for having regenerating health that makes it too easy (the original had a health regeneration augment that could regenerate you much faster than any modern video game will be willing to do).
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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1747 on: February 19, 2013, 01:10:12 am »
The only game from that series I've played is Red faction 2...

On PS2...

There were some impressive things about it. I liked the destructible world and every now and then the story and the whole atmosphere of the game was good, but mostly the game was dissapointing.

Later I did find out that it was considered the worst of the series.

Yeah, the original blew RF2 out of the water.

Never got to play the full version of the first Red Faction, and RF2 was...reasonably fun.  Guerrilla, however, takes the destructible world idea, and pretty much runs as far with it as humanly possible without being able to level the land itself.  Though, using a MOAB (Ohhhhhh, yes, they got those, and they're gorgeous) to level a mountain would be pretty fucking sweet.
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Offline syaoranvee

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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1748 on: February 19, 2013, 01:13:08 am »
Started Blue Mountain on The Secret World the other day.

Apparently, Sasquatches are our final line of defense when the world goes to hell.

Offline Vypernight

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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1749 on: February 19, 2013, 07:51:43 am »
The only game from that series I've played is Red faction 2...

On PS2...

There were some impressive things about it. I liked the destructible world and every now and then the story and the whole atmosphere of the game was good, but mostly the game was dissapointing.

Later I did find out that it was considered the worst of the series.


In other non-news I've gone back to playing Fallout: New Vegas. I'm planning to do the Legion quests this time. (Usually I just don't LIKE playing evil characters but I have missed much of the game because of that.)

My favorite part of RF 2 is running off a platform, just so I can hear the character scream, "SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT!!!!!!!!"

Never gets old.
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Offline kefkaownsall

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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1750 on: February 19, 2013, 08:00:09 am »
I can't be alone in this but the main fire emblem game is not bad.  The paralogues are Dark Souls

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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1751 on: February 19, 2013, 09:47:17 am »
Well, Deus Ex hasn't really aged well. I think Human Revolution is such a great game because it took all of the stuff that made the original great (some level of free roaming, many different choices and possibilities for how missions can go, plenty of side missions, limited inventory, weapon and augmentation modification, good emphasis on talking, complexity in the world and storyline, ability for non-fatal resolution to almost every encounter, etc.) and added on the advances made in modern gaming (somewhat workable cover system, weapons don't have ridiculous inaccuracy past sneezing distance unless you spend skill points on "training", regenerating health instead of being stuck in a rut and having to restart from an earlier point because you're too weak and don't have enough health items to go on, etc.). Deus Ex does what made it unique better than many modern games, but it's also undeniably primitive in the gameplay sense.
I have to say, I'm of pretty much the opposite opinion. I've never found myself wanting for a cover system. I've always found crouching or standing behind something solid to be perfectly sufficient, especially since you're able to lean from side to side, which means you can still pop out to fire off a few shots while exposing as little of yourself to enemy fire as possible.

As for the training system: That's exactly how it should be. Deus Ex is designed around forcing the player to specialise and actually use their chosen skills to play the game. If you could easily overcome a poor training level with player skill, then what would be the point of any sort of levelling system in the first place? It's also why every new augmentation comes with two possible buffs, and you can only pick one, and why there aren't enough augment upgrades in the game to max out all of your augmentations. It forces you to pick and choose the augmentations that fit your playstyle. Then of course the highly limited inventory forces you to do the same with your equipment. In effect, it creates a completely organic class system. Add to that the level design which makes any halfway reasonable build perfectly viable and it just works. It's what makes Deus Ex a proper RPG/shooter hybrid rather than a shooter with token RPG elements.

As for regenerating health, it's really not suited to a game like Deus Ex. It works quite nicely in a more linear game, where there's little scope for searching for health pick ups, but in a game with very open levels like Deus Ex, they provide yet another rather compelling reason to explore. It also means doing badly in a fight has some consequences, which for an RPG is definitely something you want. Sure, you can get an augmentation that regenerates health, but it uses up bioelectricity like it's going out of fashion, which itself is a finite, non-regenerating resource. You could certainly argue that it's overpowered, but it's most definitely not the same thing as free, constantly regenerating health.

Offline Material Defender

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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1752 on: February 19, 2013, 10:03:43 am »
I've started a playthrough of the original Deus Ex. This time, I hope to actually finish the damn thing.
I've got to admit, after playing human revolution it doesn't feel like the world shattering game it once did.

Though it could be I just suck at it.

Well, Deus Ex hasn't really aged well. I think Human Revolution is such a great game because it took all of the stuff that made the original great (some level of free roaming, many different choices and possibilities for how missions can go, plenty of side missions, limited inventory, weapon and augmentation modification, good emphasis on talking, complexity in the world and storyline, ability for non-fatal resolution to almost every encounter, etc.) and added on the advances made in modern gaming (somewhat workable cover system, weapons don't have ridiculous inaccuracy past sneezing distance unless you spend skill points on "training", regenerating health instead of being stuck in a rut and having to restart from an earlier point because you're too weak and don't have enough health items to go on, etc.). Deus Ex does what made it unique better than many modern games, but it's also undeniably primitive in the gameplay sense.

Of course, a lot of rabid fanboys don't seem to have played the original game either. They criticize Human Revolution for requiring you to kill certain enemies in boss fights instead of being able to non-violently sneak past them or knock them out (the original also required that, though you could learn their kill phrases and just blow them up without fighting), or for having regenerating health that makes it too easy (the original had a health regeneration augment that could regenerate you much faster than any modern video game will be willing to do).

My brother and I use Deus Ex regularly as a game that is held upon another standard. Between the use of conspiracy theories effectively (As opposed to gambit pile up, it's one level that you're constantly learning laterally about to know the true depth.) and sensible plot progression, as well as meaningful, organic choices you can make. Like Killing Anna Narvarra to prevent her from killing that dude? There's no prompt for that. I just decided to blow her away because she acted like an asshole to me and I knew I could get more information from the dude. And you don't have to fight Walter Simmons or Hermann. You can just run past them. Walter's so close to a level change anyways he's super easy to run away from. The bosses in the games also had a lot less health. One Rocket+Training=Death to Hermann and Anna. The groups of enemies were a lot more meaningful.

Also sounds like you got a broken version if it takes ten seconds for them to notice me. I had them able to see me pretty readily at a distance unless i was crouching in shadows. It uses an organic stealth system like Thief, it just lacks a proper light gem so it feels a little wonky. I think the cover system in Human Revolution was more just replicating something you'd do anyways in the original. Hide behind cover. Until of course you have the 85% versus everything resistance. Plus, if I'm low on medpaks? It means its stealth time!

I respect Human Revolution, it works great as a successor to the name of Deus Ex. I'm curious whether they'll do a remake/reimaging of the original or skip it (Since it's good AS IS, so no tinkering is required) and fix Invisible War. Story was decent, but the gameplay was... too simple. It took away meaningful choice making with your augments.
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Offline kefkaownsall

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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1753 on: February 19, 2013, 10:06:45 am »
I liked HR but my biggest problem was the end game
and the fact there was no reason to use lethal strikes

Offline chitoryu12

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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1754 on: February 19, 2013, 10:36:40 am »
Quote
I've never found myself wanting for a cover system. I've always found crouching or standing behind something solid to be perfectly sufficient, especially since you're able to lean from side to side, which means you can still pop out to fire off a few shots while exposing as little of yourself to enemy fire as possible.

Quote
I think the cover system in Human Revolution was more just replicating something you'd do anyways in the original. Hide behind cover. Until of course you have the 85% versus everything resistance. Plus, if I'm low on medpaks? It means its stealth time!

I'd like a lean system added on (my own idea for a vaguely related game concept includes the new Medal of Honor cover system and leaning outside of that), but the cover system tends to make things easier since you can see exactly what parts of your body are sticking out (an impossibility in first person orientation, as you don't have any sense of awareness of where any of your body parts are) and lets you blindfire. Human Revolution actually made the smart decision of having almost no accuracy during blindfiring (even in Gears of War is just serves as a "less accurate normal shooting"), but it does suit a more rapid combat style where you can respond to enemies in cover by running up, ducking behind the pile of boxes they're hiding behind, and blindly sticking a shotgun over and into their face when they pop up.

Quote
As for the training system: That's exactly how it should be. Deus Ex is designed around forcing the player to specialise and actually use their chosen skills to play the game. If you could easily overcome a poor training level with player skill, then what would be the point of any sort of levelling system in the first place? It's also why every new augmentation comes with two possible buffs, and you can only pick one, and why there aren't enough augment upgrades in the game to max out all of your augmentations. It forces you to pick and choose the augmentations that fit your playstyle. Then of course the highly limited inventory forces you to do the same with your equipment. In effect, it creates a completely organic class system. Add to that the level design which makes any halfway reasonable build perfectly viable and it just works. It's what makes Deus Ex a proper RPG/shooter hybrid rather than a shooter with token RPG elements.

Quote
Story was decent, but the gameplay was... too simple. It took away meaningful choice making with your augments.

First off, HR actually included the limited inventory and augmentation standard from the first game. Other than the choice of inventory expansions as an augmentation and making ammo take up space (the original had it off in the ether somewhere, untainted by the grid), the grid system is almost exactly the same in size as the original and actually restricts you MORE, since ammo has to be included as well as everything else. There's also only 21 Praxis Kits in game (it takes 68 points to fully upgrade) and it costs a total of 45,000 credits to purchase 9 of them, which only compulsive thieves who scour every area for cash will be able to easily acquire. So someone will likely never manage more than half of the possible upgrades at the most before completing the game even including XP on top of that, which fits into the "Choose carefully" bit.

On my second point, the training levels in the first game were downright ridiculous and completely destroyed suspension of disbelief: an augmented supersoldier and trained government agent can barely even hold a weapon steady enough to hit the target at 50 yards unless he decides to use those augments to increase his skills to the levels of an average USMC rifleman? Along with stretching believability even if you tried to justify it, it's immensely frustrating for players who have the skill to do the task (and could probably accomplish it themselves in real life) but are hamstrung by their character shooting like a drunk. Adam Jensen starts with the level of training and skill that someone in his position should rightfully have, and the augmentations do exactly that: augment his ability. He can use his Praxis points to steady his aim or reduce recoil, but he never needs to use them just to get himself past the competency level of your girlfriend trying out a shotgun for the first time out in the woods.

As for making augmentations "meaningful", HR always provides more than enough choices for people who took any augmentation to make it through. Someone who emphasized hacking and break through locked doors and computers faster (and has access to hacks that literally aren't possible for those with lower skill levels), someone who emphasized stealth can more easily sneak around the guards and cameras, someone who emphasized combat can shoot his way through, etc. Certain augmentations like the wall breaking and Icarus Landing System open up entirely new paths. But you're never going to be left thinking "Dammit, I should have chosen X augmentation beforehand." Because really, you can't expect the player to predict what may come in handy far in the future and players probably won't be happy if they spend the entire game focusing on one play style that works only to find that it's useless at a certain point. Even the last level's pseudo zombie apocalypse still incorporates elements of the available playstyles and even makes it possible (albeit extremely difficult) to make it through non-lethally, while still keeping it new and wild enough to force players to adapt or die.

Quote
As for regenerating health, it's really not suited to a game like Deus Ex. It works quite nicely in a more linear game, where there's little scope for searching for health pick ups, but in a game with very open levels like Deus Ex, they provide yet another rather compelling reason to explore. It also means doing badly in a fight has some consequences, which for an RPG is definitely something you want. Sure, you can get an augmentation that regenerates health, but it uses up bioelectricity like it's going out of fashion, which itself is a finite, non-regenerating resource. You could certainly argue that it's overpowered, but it's most definitely not the same thing as free, constantly regenerating health.

Regenerating health became popular for good reason: limited supplies. Both games are infamously lethal (even on the easiest difficulty, HR will kill you quickly if you get caught in the open for mere seconds), but forcing the player to rely on limited medical supplies very often resulted in the player being caught with too little health to make it through the next section, but no supplies available to revitalize them. It's extremely annoying, especially since both games make such useful items in general relatively uncommon and have limited inventory space to try and fit everything in. Making it through Deus Ex gets frankly annoying sometimes, because you die quickly (especially early on) and you may have absolutely zero chance of recovering any health if you manage to hide. It's all in the name of giving the player a fighting chance, which is kind of a necessity if you want your game to have more than niche appeal these days. It's why my own game concept follows the Dwarf Fortress or Nethack manifesto of extreme unfairness and forcing creative thinking, but also understands the game's niche and how it's not meant to really be made for mass consumption.

Quote
Also sounds like you got a broken version if it takes ten seconds for them to notice me. I had them able to see me pretty readily at a distance unless i was crouching in shadows. It uses an organic stealth system like Thief, it just lacks a proper light gem so it feels a little wonky.

I think you misquoted there.

Quote
I liked HR but my biggest problem was the end game

The endgame was almost exactly like the first one: you get several choices and you have to pick one. They were admittedly limited by the story being a prequel, but they explicitly made it so that there wouldn't be a bunch of non-canon endings: the progression to Deus Ex has elements that fit every possible ending, so any one of them could be correct.

Quote
and the fact there was no reason to use lethal strikes

You mean the melee strikes? They actually do serve an important purpose: unconscious enemies can be woken up if they get found. I decided to do a 100% non-lethal sneaking run through the police station recently, and I kept running into problems where the cops would quickly wake up whoever I knocked out (especially if I ever got caught, as they'd promptly start patrolling the area). I had to get around this by quickly knocking them out and dragging them into a nearby air vent until everyone on the floor was stuffed in a tangle of bodies blocking damn near the whole thing.

Also, the office floor is probably one of the hardest areas to stealth through. Along with being utterly loaded with cops (all of whom will promptly start shooting you simultaneously if they catch you uninvited), there's a lot of windows and open doorways that expose you as you walk by AND patrolling cops in the halls behind those windows. It takes impossible levels of speed and precision to stealthily make it in and out of the morgue unless you find an alternate route, and you'll probably end up throwing flashbangs and shooting tasers and PEPs while sprinting upstairs to escape through the vents.

Oh, and if you get caught, all cops outside become hostile. Yeah, all the guys patrolling in full body armor and carrying shotguns who call for backup if you fight them. You're basically left sneaking around Detroit for a long time.
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