Worst of Social Justice

[Eiki-mun]

I still want to know the exact definition of "white". We can talk about white people until we're blue in the face, but you need an exact definition to get anywhere. Are Castilians white? What about Turks? Cubans? Algerians?

[dpareja]

I still want to know the exact definition of "white". We can talk about white people until we're blue in the face, but you need an exact definition to get anywhere. Are Castilians white? What about Turks? Cubans? Algerians?

To bastardize Potter Stewart, I can't define what a white person is, but I know one when I see one.

[Eiki-mun]

I still want to know the exact definition of "white". We can talk about white people until we're blue in the face, but you need an exact definition to get anywhere. Are Castilians white? What about Turks? Cubans? Algerians?

To bastardize Potter Stewart, I can't define what a white person is, but I know one when I see one.

But that's not always the case. Sure, there are the obviously white groups - people of English and German ancestry, for example. But there's also dubiously white groups. Again, Turks for example. Are they white? Most would say no, but ethnically speaking, they're not too different from Greeks or Serbians at this point, and most would consider those two groups white.

[davedan]

As for white - I like sigma's idea in the sense that we are talking about whether you are discriminated against in your society because of your ethnicity. Now in my society I am not. I have however experienced the really weird feeling of being a minority while in certain countries. The reason the feeling was really weird was because there was a wide spread feeling that my ethnicity actually made me better. It resulted in obvious unsubtle systemic favouritism. Stuff like not having to wait in line, being literally pushed to the front of lines, waived through police checkpoints, when literally every other person was being frisked. There was some downers but most of it was positive. The funny thing was even with most of it being nice it was really uncomfortable. I can't imagine how awful that would be systemically in reverse.

As for the appropriation thing. First I agree that if you think you are an expert on all things japanese because you eat at Sushi train and say  'Moshi moshi' when you answer the phone makes you a wanker. But its not cultural appropriation and it's not an erasure of a particular culture. Nor is getting kitted up in a kimono, wearing dreads, saris or bindis. There are other things which involve the fetishing or misappropriation of matters which are of cultural significance or taboo. But mostly trying to learn another language, trying new foods and exploring a foreign culture are good things. Most people who are in that culture appreciate it. The problem really seems to me that you have Americans, with a particular ethnic identification, who feel that you are stealing their thing, oftentimes when they have never been to that country themselves. Now I understand why these Americans are a bit pissy about this. They were probably marginalized or made to feel like shit for being of whatever ethnic extraction and now to have all the arseholes you were at school with jump on your bandwagon as soon as it's cool and diluting your cred would suck. But it's not a real social justice issue, so much as a proliferation of wankers.

[Even Then]

Thing is, bringing up the systemic issues white people might face in the west on the basis of factors other than their whiteness when black people are discussing their own specific discrimination is derailing the discourse. "Oh, hey, you were talking about systemic racism too much for my tastes, let's just steer the conversation back to white people, the group enforcing this systemic racism in the first place". You know?

I think that's too broad? Discussing various kinds of systemic issues is not always derailing the discourse. E.g. a black person can talk about feeling uncomfortable in a context with lots of racist jokes, I can share my experience in groups where homophobic jokes are common. Would talking about my personal experiences be "bringing it back to white people"?


(I mean, I'm not exactly white but you get the idea, I'm not discriminated against on the basis of my ethnicity in my society)

Bringing up systemic issues that white people face in and of itself isn't derailing the discourse, never said it was. The issues exist and merit discussion. What I'm talking about is the following:

Let's say that there's a thread for systemic antiblack racism here at FQA. This thread is specifically for that. Out of the blue, someone jumps in and wants to make the conversation about white people suffering classism or ableism instead. The topic isn't inherently derailing, but bringing it up in that specific thread is. A new thread could be made for that purpose, but instead the thread about antiblack racism is being derailed to talk about white issues.

[guizonde]

Thing is, bringing up the systemic issues white people might face in the west on the basis of factors other than their whiteness when black people are discussing their own specific discrimination is derailing the discourse. "Oh, hey, you were talking about systemic racism too much for my tastes, let's just steer the conversation back to white people, the group enforcing this systemic racism in the first place". You know?

I think that's too broad? Discussing various kinds of systemic issues is not always derailing the discourse. E.g. a black person can talk about feeling uncomfortable in a context with lots of racist jokes, I can share my experience in groups where homophobic jokes are common. Would talking about my personal experiences be "bringing it back to white people"?


(I mean, I'm not exactly white but you get the idea, I'm not discriminated against on the basis of my ethnicity in my society)

Bringing up systemic issues that white people face in and of itself isn't derailing the discourse, never said it was. The issues exist and merit discussion. What I'm talking about is the following:

Let's say that there's a thread for systemic antiblack racism here at FQA. This thread is specifically for that. Out of the blue, someone jumps in and wants to make the conversation about white people suffering classism or ableism instead. The topic isn't inherently derailing, but bringing it up in that specific thread is. A new thread could be made for that purpose, but instead the thread about antiblack racism is being derailed to talk about white issues.

it's a valid point, but what about in societies where the racism is flipped, like in southern africa? could we draw a parallel without derailing?

also, davedan, where did you go? that seems odd. i went to malaysia and was objectified by my "foreign beauty", and that made me really uncomfortable, but never have i experienced something like that, beyond the "french is so sexy" i experienced in the usa. (off-topic, i was there in the bush years meaning that it was half "sexy" and half "surrendering cheese monkeys").

[davedan]

It was terribly noticeable in Bangladesh.

Edit: Although I have employed the 'melanin pass card' in other places as well.

[Even Then]

Antiwhite sentiment in Africa isn't really a 100% flip of white superiority in the West because of a number of factors,  but I do see what you mean. And honestly, I don't know. I don't feel qualified to comment on African discrimination discourse.

[Svata]

Thing is, bringing up the systemic issues white people might face in the west on the basis of factors other than their whiteness when black people are discussing their own specific discrimination is derailing the discourse. "Oh, hey, you were talking about systemic racism too much for my tastes, let's just steer the conversation back to white people, the group enforcing this systemic racism in the first place". You know?

I think that's too broad? Discussing various kinds of systemic issues is not always derailing the discourse. E.g. a black person can talk about feeling uncomfortable in a context with lots of racist jokes, I can share my experience in groups where homophobic jokes are common. Would talking about my personal experiences be "bringing it back to white people"?


(I mean, I'm not exactly white but you get the idea, I'm not discriminated against on the basis of my ethnicity in my society)

Bringing up systemic issues that white people face in and of itself isn't derailing the discourse, never said it was. The issues exist and merit discussion. What I'm talking about is the following:

Let's say that there's a thread for systemic antiblack racism here at FQA. This thread is specifically for that. Out of the blue, someone jumps in and wants to make the conversation about white people suffering classism or ableism instead. The topic isn't inherently derailing, but bringing it up in that specific thread is. A new thread could be made for that purpose, but instead the thread about antiblack racism is being derailed to talk about white issues.

it's a valid point, but what about in societies where the racism is flipped, like in southern africa? could we draw a parallel without derailing?

also, davedan, where did you go? that seems odd. i went to malaysia and was objectified by my "foreign beauty", and that made me really uncomfortable, but never have i experienced something like that, beyond the "french is so sexy" i experienced in the usa. (off-topic, i was there in the bush years meaning that it was half "sexy" and half "surrendering cheese monkeys").

Off topic, I never did git why the "cheese eating" bit of that was there. I mean, what's wrong with cheese? No need to discriminate against certain dairy products.

[Askold]

It's from Simpsons. Due to budget cuts or something Groundskeeper Willie is teaching French classes. He starts by saying "Bonjour you cheese eating surrender monkeys" in a horrible accent.

And then some magazine copied that phrase to mock the French when they refused to join USA in the "Coalition of the willing."

[Ultimate Paragon]

Thing is, bringing up the systemic issues white people might face in the west on the basis of factors other than their whiteness when black people are discussing their own specific discrimination is derailing the discourse. "Oh, hey, you were talking about systemic racism too much for my tastes, let's just steer the conversation back to white people, the group enforcing this systemic racism in the first place". You know?

I think that's too broad? Discussing various kinds of systemic issues is not always derailing the discourse. E.g. a black person can talk about feeling uncomfortable in a context with lots of racist jokes, I can share my experience in groups where homophobic jokes are common. Would talking about my personal experiences be "bringing it back to white people"?


(I mean, I'm not exactly white but you get the idea, I'm not discriminated against on the basis of my ethnicity in my society)

Bringing up systemic issues that white people face in and of itself isn't derailing the discourse, never said it was. The issues exist and merit discussion. What I'm talking about is the following:

Let's say that there's a thread for systemic antiblack racism here at FQA. This thread is specifically for that. Out of the blue, someone jumps in and wants to make the conversation about white people suffering classism or ableism instead. The topic isn't inherently derailing, but bringing it up in that specific thread is. A new thread could be made for that purpose, but instead the thread about antiblack racism is being derailed to talk about white issues.

it's a valid point, but what about in societies where the racism is flipped, like in southern africa? could we draw a parallel without derailing?

also, davedan, where did you go? that seems odd. i went to malaysia and was objectified by my "foreign beauty", and that made me really uncomfortable, but never have i experienced something like that, beyond the "french is so sexy" i experienced in the usa. (off-topic, i was there in the bush years meaning that it was half "sexy" and half "surrendering cheese monkeys").

Off topic, I never did git why the "cheese eating" bit of that was there. I mean, what's wrong with cheese? No need to discriminate against certain dairy products.

I think it's meant to have connotations of being effete and pretentious.

[Askold]

Here:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUjGf2Grrus" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUjGf2Grrus</a>

This is what started it.

[Sigmaleph]

Thing is, bringing up the systemic issues white people might face in the west on the basis of factors other than their whiteness when black people are discussing their own specific discrimination is derailing the discourse. "Oh, hey, you were talking about systemic racism too much for my tastes, let's just steer the conversation back to white people, the group enforcing this systemic racism in the first place". You know?

I think that's too broad? Discussing various kinds of systemic issues is not always derailing the discourse. E.g. a black person can talk about feeling uncomfortable in a context with lots of racist jokes, I can share my experience in groups where homophobic jokes are common. Would talking about my personal experiences be "bringing it back to white people"?


(I mean, I'm not exactly white but you get the idea, I'm not discriminated against on the basis of my ethnicity in my society)

Bringing up systemic issues that white people face in and of itself isn't derailing the discourse, never said it was. The issues exist and merit discussion. What I'm talking about is the following:

Let's say that there's a thread for systemic antiblack racism here at FQA. This thread is specifically for that. Out of the blue, someone jumps in and wants to make the conversation about white people suffering classism or ableism instead. The topic isn't inherently derailing, but bringing it up in that specific thread is. A new thread could be made for that purpose, but instead the thread about antiblack racism is being derailed to talk about white issues.

Alright, we're on the same page then.

[Eiki-mun]

http://www.dailydot.com/geek/steven-universe-fanartist-bullied-controversy/

Honestly I never thought it would make it to the news, but here's Zamii again. This time along with the show's creators getting attacked!

[Zygarde]

This reminds me of a thing I've wanted to bring up, but never really got a chance to; Tumblr's weird double standard when it comes to fan art and fan artist. I've seen it a lot where people praise an artist for drawing a normally skinny character fat or a normally white character black ect, but the minute people do the inverse they get drudged upon or called racist an all sorts of other colorful words. Why? Last I checked this was fan art this is how a fan interprets a particular character why does it matter how they draw them?