Worst of Social Justice

[Even Then]

1) Marginalization, dehumanization and discrimination of people because of their body type isn't just "drawing a cartoon slightly thinner than how she appears on TV", but thanks for playing

2) The post didn't even say anything about Zamii, the gripe in itself is one that's honestly valid

3) I honestly fucking hate that people are now saying "baaaw don't criticize people for perpetuating marginalization in their works, just let everyone draw literally anything without commenting on it" as if all critics of such are extremist suicidebaiters (not that that's anything new as a thing that exists but it's recently surfaced even more)

[RavynousHunter]

Damn it, where's that really weird drawing of that one-eyed, scarred, short, overweight, black chick with that wiggly, metal tentacle arm with the grabber claw at the end when you need it?

[Even Then]

That actually sounds awesome.

[mellenORL]

Sounds like a friend for Scary Girl to meet.

[Eiki-mun]

1) Marginalization, dehumanization and discrimination of people because of their body type isn't just "drawing a cartoon slightly thinner than how she appears on TV", but thanks for playing

2) The post didn't even say anything about Zamii, the gripe in itself is one that's honestly valid

That is, of course, a subjective matter. I would say that the post is dog-whistling. Talking about "artists that draw racist and fatphobic drawings" as a kind of marker to talk about Zamii without actually talking about her, primarily considering that she's the only one who's caught a lot of visible flak lately. But, on the other hand, that might be completely off base. It's just a personal guess of mine.

IFF (that is, if and only if) the post is about Zamii, then yes, it's equating "drawing a cartoon slightly thinner" or "drawing a cartoon slightly lighter" to fatphobia and racism, which is of course wrong, as I'm sure you would agree. If not, well... who knows what conclusions you can draw?

3) I honestly fucking hate that people are now saying "baaaw don't criticize people for perpetuating marginalization in their works, just let everyone draw literally anything without commenting on it" as if all critics of such are extremist suicidebaiters (not that that's anything new as a thing that exists but it's recently surfaced even more)

Not all critics are suicidebaiters, but enough exist that from the perspective of the bullied artist, they all appear to be. Again, just speaking in Zamii's case, of course. That said, I'm of the opinion that people should be allowed to draw what they want, and while you should have the option to engage them in criticism, things like "call out blogs" should never be made about them. Don't like an artist? Don't talk about them - if enough people don't like an artist, they'll fade into obscurity.

[Sigmaleph]

2) The post didn't even say anything about Zamii, the gripe in itself is one that's honestly valid

That seems disingenuous. I mean, in principle the person in question could be vagueblogging about anything, but it seems pretty likely that they mean Zamii.

And y'know, the gripe is not generally valid. The post makes a dichotomy between "actively harmed" and "hurt feelings" that I reject. The worst harm a single artist's drawings can do is hurt feelings. You can't build up structures of oppression with a single person. You can't create an overarching culture getting people to internalise negative messages if you're a single person. You can take part in those overall trends, sure, but they'd be there either way.

Creating bigoted art and sending hateful messages to artists are not incommensurate, they are the same kind of thing. If you have someone that makes a lot of bigoted art, that's bad. If you have a lot of people who send hateful messages, that's also bad. If you have enough people, it's worse. Hurting people is bad, hurting people more is worse.

So yes, sometimes you should worry about the feelings of bigoted artists over the feelings of people who are hurt by bigoted art.

[pyro]

Yes, I seriously can. You assumed that vagina = female and that gay men would automatically turn down a pre-op trans man because "ew vagina".

Actually, "I love boys!!! I could never handle vagina!" means pretty much that, as seen in the OP.

[Even Then]

Sigma, you're right. Singular artists on Tumblr have no power to put up oppressive structures on their own. I have never even attempted to argue they do. However, they can contribute to them, add to them and perpetuate them. And that is something that's actually more harmful than just getting harshly-worded critique and bluntly expressed negative sentiment over said bigotry. I reject the notion that, for example, whitewashing and calling out whitewashing are on the same level of harmfulness. (Not necessarily what you're arguing, but the general sentiment is something I've seen people earnestly espouse.)

However, there's a difference between the aforementioned and actual sustained harassment, which is obviously bad. That's, for me at least, where the boundary of worrying about the feelings of bigoted artists is. Harsh critique OK, hate in moderation OK (if they were doing it inadvertently and stopped after pointing it out, that's a good place to stop), actual harassment, doxxing and suicide baiting and slander and such NOT OK.

[rageaholic]

From 2012

So they're mad at Laci Green (who's said some pretty silly things herself) for posting before and after weight loss pics.

It’s all well and good to say ‘this is my body, I’m not saying you should do what I did’, but simply by being as high profile as she is, and by telling her readers how she got to where it is, she’s implying that anyone can do it. And not everyone’s body works the way hers does. So what if her readers took her advice, did the same thing she did, and didn’t lose weight? What if their body didn’t change? They’re going to hate themselves more.

And I’m sorry, but posting progress pictures? How much weight you’ve lost? Before and after? That crosses a line.

As an advocate for body positivity, you have to understand how what you say might be taken by people who read it. Many people look up to Laci. They want to be like her. I read the notes in her post and there were so many 'how do you keep the weight off?’ 'Can you talk about what you have for meals?’ questions. It’s dangerous territory. People want to do what she did and expect the same results. She doesn’t have to say you 'should’ do anything, people simply believe it’s implied. That’s what happens when you look up to someone.

[Ghoti]

From 2012

So they're mad at Laci Green (who's said some pretty silly things herself) for posting before and after weight loss pics.

It’s all well and good to say ‘this is my body, I’m not saying you should do what I did’, but simply by being as high profile as she is, and by telling her readers how she got to where it is, she’s implying that anyone can do it. And not everyone’s body works the way hers does. So what if her readers took her advice, did the same thing she did, and didn’t lose weight? What if their body didn’t change? They’re going to hate themselves more.

And I’m sorry, but posting progress pictures? How much weight you’ve lost? Before and after? That crosses a line.

As an advocate for body positivity, you have to understand how what you say might be taken by people who read it. Many people look up to Laci. They want to be like her. I read the notes in her post and there were so many 'how do you keep the weight off?’ 'Can you talk about what you have for meals?’ questions. It’s dangerous territory. People want to do what she did and expect the same results. She doesn’t have to say you 'should’ do anything, people simply believe it’s implied. That’s what happens when you look up to someone.

I have some advice for people who look up to Laci Green, whether they want to lose weight or not: get a better role model.

[TheUnknown]

From 2012

So they're mad at Laci Green (who's said some pretty silly things herself) for posting before and after weight loss pics.

It’s all well and good to say ‘this is my body, I’m not saying you should do what I did’, but simply by being as high profile as she is, and by telling her readers how she got to where it is, she’s implying that anyone can do it. And not everyone’s body works the way hers does. So what if her readers took her advice, did the same thing she did, and didn’t lose weight? What if their body didn’t change? They’re going to hate themselves more.

And I’m sorry, but posting progress pictures? How much weight you’ve lost? Before and after? That crosses a line.

As an advocate for body positivity, you have to understand how what you say might be taken by people who read it. Many people look up to Laci. They want to be like her. I read the notes in her post and there were so many 'how do you keep the weight off?’ 'Can you talk about what you have for meals?’ questions. It’s dangerous territory. People want to do what she did and expect the same results. She doesn’t have to say you 'should’ do anything, people simply believe it’s implied. That’s what happens when you look up to someone.

Another note from this thread:

Here’s something simple: If you involve weight loss in ANY way, then your aim isn’t health or fitness, it’s weight loss. And that’s deeply steeped in fat-shaming as we all know.

And this is what bothers me about tumblr's brand of "body positive".  They took "your weight doesn't necessarily reflect your health" and turned it into "weight has absolutely no correlation with health ever and to say otherwise is fatshaming".  Also, funny how they preach "different bodies have different standards" then turn around and say "if you determined that losing weight made you healthier, you're just a sheep brainwashed by society's fatshaming".

[Dakota Bob]

How can any legit "body positivity" movement demand to be taken seriously if they claim that "people can be perfectly healthy at any size"? There is ABUNDANT evidence that being overweight/obese opens you up to a myriad of health conditions. I thought I was perfectly healthy at 5 foot 9 and 250 pounds until I blew out my fucking ankles taking a walk. I'm trying to be more body positive, which means I'm actually trying to take care of the only one I have, instead of blaming my failings on others.

[Ironchew]

Sure is a big fucking health lecture in here.

And I bet none of you are physicians, except of the armchair variety.

[RavynousHunter]

Sure is a big fucking health lecture in here.

And I bet none of you are physicians, except of the armchair variety.

How...ironic, ignoring statistics and studies you don't like.  Truly, 'Chew, you are a man of God.

[Ironchew]

Sure is a big fucking health lecture in here.

And I bet none of you are physicians, except of the armchair variety.

How...ironic, ignoring statistics and studies you don't like.  Truly, 'Chew, you are a man of God.

There's a difference between asking for health advice and getting it, and the fat-shaming tactic of expounding on the horrors of obesity every day, whether the target wants to hear it or not.

It's a socially-sanctioned bullying tactic. Just admit that it satisfies your urge to bully and drop the pretense of being concerned about my health.