Worst of Social Justice

[Ultimate Paragon]

Usually, zombies are a metaphor for consumerism...

I wouldn't say "usually."

[RavynousHunter]

They were back when Romero was king of the pile.  Nowadays, they're more a framing device.  Kind of an "instant drama, just add zombies."

[Igor]

I thought it was a metaphor for communism,then consumerism. iirc it changes depending on who's making the movie.

[The_Queen]

Ah, never mind. I had missed the part where Queen called the entire concept of a day about men's issues silly. Fuck off. What's next, getting rid of Father's day because of all that privilege fathers have?

Oh "fuck off." I'm so hurt. Entertaining your silly notions aside, McIntosh makes a great point: you can talk about men's health issue 364 other days of the year and not get a side glance. In fact, I can think of no issue of men's health that gets near the level of social scrutiny that women's health issues do. I mean, this is the very reason we have a black entertainment television but not a white entertainment television: because society as a whole tends to favor the dominant group's issues at the expense of the minority's. And, taking this opportunity to delve into Askold's point, McIntosh never made it about oppression olympics: you read his post through that lens and ascribe the view you wanted him to espouse to him.

Except the only "social point" I can see him "making" is: "You're a male so you don't matter." If there is any other point he's trying to make, I must be too stupid to see it. Damn that penis, blinding me to his totally nuanced statement.

You're right, it is silly to have a day to bring awareness to inequalities and problems regarding boys failing in education, male suicide rates (but women TRY as much as men, so fuck men, right?), lack of rights for willing fathers, the shocking number of male victims of domestic violence, the fact that often when men do actually call domestic violence hot lines, they're laughed at or told there's no way to help them because the shelters are "women and children only," the fact that being "made to penetrate" is considered a separate category of offense to "rape," men who are made to penetrate a woman aren't considered to have been raped, the gender bias in the court system, the fact that victims of female-on-male rape can be forced to pay child support, even when they were raped as a child and the fact that by society in general, no one will talk about the issues men face because "equality for everyone" is "misogynistic."

Yeah, it's "silly" to have one god damn day to maybe address these issues before we go back to talking about the REALLY IMPORTANT things.

I think I addressed your points already....

"Men do face real issues but most stem from patriarchy and the pathology of male privilege."

Thus, that was a cute little strawman you made, but Neither McIntosh nor myself diminished the problems that men have, nor did we ever imply that men have no problems. Further, a lot of the problems you state have some basis patriarchal views of men vis-a-vis women, so that further proves what both McIntosh and myself have been trying to say.

queen, i'm not an idiot. the problem wasn't with "big words", or even with pathology, but with "male privilege", and you know it. now, if you search pathology on google, you will find that definition. i don't understand the link between the word "pathology" and the concept of male privilege. pathology implies it's a disease. male privilege may be endemic, but it's not a disease.

I never said you were an idiot. I've thought it, more than once, but I can't remember saying it withing the last month or so. Snark aside, I stand by my statement that a simple google search on the word "pathology" showed exactly what he meant, and yet you still couldn't figure it out.

But, because I have to do all your homework, what he means by "the pathology of male privilege" is "the typical behavior of [male privilege]." Otherwise stated as how it manifests itself within society, both towards males and females. It's not that hard to understand.

[SCarpelan]

Entertaining your silly notions aside, McIntosh makes a great point: you can talk about men's health issue 364 other days of the year and not get a side glance. In fact, I can think of no issue of men's health that gets near the level of social scrutiny that women's health issues do. I mean, this is the very reason we have a black entertainment television but not a white entertainment television: because society as a whole tends to favor the dominant group's issues at the expense of the minority's.

This is true when it comes to the problems that fit within the patriarchal masculinity. Most of the problems that don't belong in its sphere don't get as much attention in the public awareness. Alcoholism, violence, homelessness, heart diseases etc. get acknowledged even if the role of patriarchy in these is often ignored and thus the full picture is lacking. When you go to less traditional points of view such as fathers as caretakers instead of just bread winners there is mostly silence.

Like I posted earlier, I would like to know how McIntosh supports his assertion that Men's Day doesn't help with the problems the patriarchal view of masculinity causes. Even if you think the discussion around Men's Day ignores them too much now a better approach than McIntosh's is working towards bringing this topic as a central issue in the discussion. Fighting the toxic type of masculinity requires that people are aware of it and it would be silly to abandon a vessel to spread the word.

[RavynousHunter]

If nothing else, Men's Day doesn't hurt anyone...that I'm aware.  Seriously, its one of those "[Insert Thing Here] Day"s where, for about a week or so, legit issues are brought up only to be completely forgotten the next time some celebrity sneezes.

[The_Queen]

Like I posted earlier, I would like to know how McIntosh supports his assertion that Men's Day doesn't help with the problems the patriarchal view of masculinity causes. Even if you think the discussion around Men's Day ignores them too much now a better approach than McIntosh's is working towards bringing this topic as a central issue in the discussion. Fighting the toxic type of masculinity requires that people are aware of it and it would be silly to abandon a vessel to spread the word.

You make a good point, and I like good points. Proper argumentation is such a dying art. But my view of IMD is that it is a day to talk about issues that adversely affect men. That is the impression I got from both this post and this thread. Between the two of them, the only person to link patriarchy as a factor that contributes to male problems was Davedan in a cartoon he posted. People didn't like that.

More so to the point here, a lot of people dismiss McIntosh as saying that "men don't have problems," when that could not be further from the truth. Not only is it a strawman, but people start playing oppression olympics between the sexes to dismiss what they perceive as him playing oppression olympics (example, Damen listing several problems that men in society face, followed up by stating "Yeah, it's 'silly' to have one god damn day to maybe address these issues before we go back to talking about really important things [like manspreading]." Much like the MRA movement, it is hard to divorce the extreme views of supporters from the movement as a whole. In essence, the certain people trying to make men's issues v. women's issues a round of oppression olympics tarnish my view of IMD, and makes me see it as not much difference from the batshit MRA's on line.

But, of course, that aside, IMD is pure silliness. First off, men's health issues and men's social issues are more likely than women's issues to be taken seriously. I could point to several examples on here from flirtation with female strangers to the recent manspreading to point out that when women complain about feeling uncomfortable from men's patriarchal behavior in society, those women are more likely to have their problems dismissed or  minimized. In contrast, men's issues don't get that same level of skepticism. Birth control and abortion are huge women's health issues that create a lot of controversy. No men's health issue gets near the level of social criticism. So, using the day to draw attention to issues that adversely affect men makes no sense to me because men's issues are automatically seen by society as legitimate, so a day/awareness campaign isn't needed.

Second, the way I see it, the one way that IMD could help address men's issues--by addressing the adverse effects of patriarchy--nobody except Davedan mentions it (and he does so in a taking the piss manner). People get pissy with him. McIntosh mentions it and he's an SJW. The people who most ardently support IMD do not want to address the pathology of patriarchy--they just want to alleviate the ways that patriarchy adversely affect men. Thus, IMD is a difference that makes no difference, and therefore it is silly.

Which also gets into Ravy's point. I agree that IMD doesn't hurt anyone, but that doesn't make it any less silly.

[RavynousHunter]

Aye, but Queenie, you gotta agree that the world kinda runs on "silly."  Without it, we'd have no holidays, and most forms of fun would be gone.  But, like a lot of things, you gotta take the good with the annoyances.  I've...kinda accepted that I'm not going to actually make a difference, so I largely no longer care.  I'll leave that to people better-suited than I to such endeavors.

[Ultimate Paragon]

Like I posted earlier, I would like to know how McIntosh supports his assertion that Men's Day doesn't help with the problems the patriarchal view of masculinity causes. Even if you think the discussion around Men's Day ignores them too much now a better approach than McIntosh's is working towards bringing this topic as a central issue in the discussion. Fighting the toxic type of masculinity requires that people are aware of it and it would be silly to abandon a vessel to spread the word.

You make a good point, and I like good points. Proper argumentation is such a dying art. But my view of IMD is that it is a day to talk about issues that adversely affect men. That is the impression I got from both this post and this thread. Between the two of them, the only person to link patriarchy as a factor that contributes to male problems was Davedan in a cartoon he posted. People didn't like that.

Because blaming it solely on "the patriarchy" is a gross oversimplification.

More so to the point here, a lot of people dismiss McIntosh as saying that "men don't have problems," when that could not be further from the truth. Not only is it a strawman, but people start playing oppression olympics between the sexes to dismiss what they perceive as him playing oppression olympics (example, Damen listing several problems that men in society face, followed up by stating "Yeah, it's 'silly' to have one god damn day to maybe address these issues before we go back to talking about really important things [like manspreading]."

Except that, yeah, McIntosh was playing Oppression Olympics.  He attempted to dismiss (or at least downplay) the higher rates of male suicide by saying "well, women attempt it more" (which may not actually be true).

Much like the MRA movement, it is hard to divorce the extreme views of supporters from the movement as a whole. In essence, the certain people trying to make men's issues v. women's issues a round of oppression olympics tarnish my view of IMD, and makes me see it as not much difference from the batshit MRA's on line.

You're right, this shouldn't have to be a contest.

But, of course, that aside, IMD is pure silliness. First off, men's health issues and men's social issues are more likely than women's issues to be taken seriously.

Then why does breast cancer get so much more attention than prostate cancer?

I could point to several examples on here from flirtation with female strangers to the recent manspreading to point out that when women complain about feeling uncomfortable from men's patriarchal behavior in society, those women are more likely to have their problems dismissed or  minimized.

I'm sorry, but how exactly is spreading your legs across seats "patriarchal?"  It's rude, yeah, but I don't think it's a sign of patriarchy.

In contrast, men's issues don't get that same level of skepticism. Birth control and abortion are huge women's health issues that create a lot of controversy. No men's health issue gets near the level of social criticism. So, using the day to draw attention to issues that adversely affect men makes no sense to me because men's issues are automatically seen by society as legitimate, so a day/awareness campaign isn't needed.

Yeah, that's Oppression Olympics.  Just because men's health issues aren't as controversial doesn't make an awareness campaign unnecessary.  Everybody thinks breast cancer is a problem, and there are still awareness campaigns.

Furthermore, plenty of men's issues get a lot of social criticism.  Father's rights, false rape claims, child support, etc.

Second, the way I see it, the one way that IMD could help address men's issues--by addressing the adverse effects of patriarchy--nobody except Davedan mentions it (and he does so in a taking the piss manner). People get pissy with him. McIntosh mentions it and he's an SJW. The people who most ardently support IMD do not want to address the pathology of patriarchy--they just want to alleviate the ways that patriarchy adversely affect men.

Because not every problem faced by men is caused by the patriarchy.

Also, what exactly do you mean by "pathology of the patriarchy?"

Thus, IMD is a difference that makes no difference, and therefore it is silly.

Which also gets into Ravy's point. I agree that IMD doesn't hurt anyone, but that doesn't make it any less silly.

It's fine to have that opinion, but I'm going to respectfully disagree.

[The_Queen]

Because blaming it solely on "the patriarchy" is a gross oversimplification.

I agree. Fortunately no one ever said that. McIntosh said "most" as seen here "Men do face real issues but most stem from patriarchy and the pathology of male privilege." I toned it down a bit further by qualifying it with the word "a lot" when I said "A lot of other male problems as well" [are caused by patriarchy]." Thus, strawman.

Except that, yeah, McIntosh was playing Oppression Olympics.  He attempted to dismiss (or at least downplay) the higher rates of male suicide by saying "well, women attempt it more" (which may not actually be true).

"May not actually." Fuck, I need to do everything for you.

I found this that says you're dead wrong, and what McIntosh said is correct. Unfortunately, I have access to this through my university and cannot find a way to make it public for you all. Here is the source nonetheless: Schrijvers, Didier. "The gender paradox in suicidal behavior and its impact on the suicidal process". Journal of Affective Disorders 138 (2): 19–26

What Schrijvers finds is that women are more likely to be depressed and attempt suicide. However, women tend to attempt suicide by overdose or asphyxiation. Men tend to commit suicide by firearm or hanging. The different means of suicide that men and women use give women more time to be found and are more easily treated. Methods generally used by men are more violent, and likelier to result in a quick death. Ergo, he wasn't playing oppression olympics: he was stating facts, and even admitted that men are more likely to succeed when attempting suicide.

But, of course, that aside, IMD is pure silliness. First off, men's health issues and men's social issues are more likely than women's issues to be taken seriously.

Then why does breast cancer get so much more attention than prostate cancer?

Good marketing and powerful special interest groups like the Susan G. Komen Foundation.

I'm sorry, but how exactly is spreading your legs across seats "patriarchal?"  It's rude, yeah, but I don't think it's a sign of patriarchy.

Red Herring, not what we're debating.

Yeah, that's Oppression Olympics.  Just because men's health issues aren't as controversial doesn't make an awareness campaign unnecessary.  Everybody thinks breast cancer is a problem, and there are still awareness campaigns.

But why does the awareness campaign need to be in the form of a day? We're talking about it right now, almost a week removed from International Men's Day.

Furthermore, plenty of men's issues get a lot of social criticism.  Father's rights, false rape claims, child support, etc.

Maybe from the most rabid user's on tumblr, but in the real world you would find very few people against giving men visitation rights to their child, or being awarded custody solely on gender. A few judges stick to that philosophy as that was the old way of doing things, but most are moving away from that. I speak from experience as I used to work for a judge.

False rape claims, we've been over this. You're more likely to be falsely accused of just about any other crime than falsely accused of rape. Again, non-issue.

Child support?

Because not every problem faced by men is caused by the patriarchy.

Well thank fucking God nobody said that.

Also, what exactly do you mean by "pathology of the patriarchy?"

Jesus Triple Dancing Christ! Does anyone know how to research a fucking word on google? Ok Paragon, here goes nothing

1. Click HERE
2. Type in "pathology definition" (without the quotation marks)
3. Read this line "pathological features considered collectively; the typical behavior of a disease"
4. Insert the appropriate portion to learn that it means "the typical behavior of patriarchy" otherwise know as "how it manifests itself within society, between both men and women."

Or just read what I typed here.

[pyro]

I always thought zombies were a metaphor for walking corpses.

[Ultimate Paragon]

Because blaming it solely on "the patriarchy" is a gross oversimplification.

I agree. Fortunately no one ever said that. McIntosh said "most" as seen here "Men do face real issues but most stem from patriarchy and the pathology of male privilege." I toned it down a bit further by qualifying it with the word "a lot" when I said "A lot of other male problems as well" [are caused by patriarchy]." Thus, strawman.

Okay, yeah, I was wrong about what he said.  However, for many of those issues where the patriarchy plays a role, there are also other factors involved.  For example, British feminists have fought against equal punishment under the law:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-13666066

Except that, yeah, McIntosh was playing Oppression Olympics.  He attempted to dismiss (or at least downplay) the higher rates of male suicide by saying "well, women attempt it more" (which may not actually be true).

"May not actually." Fuck, I need to do everything for you.

I found this that says you're dead wrong, and what McIntosh said is correct. Unfortunately, I have access to this through my university and cannot find a way to make it public for you all. Here is the source nonetheless: Schrijvers, Didier. "The gender paradox in suicidal behavior and its impact on the suicidal process". Journal of Affective Disorders 138 (2): 19–26

What Schrijvers finds is that women are more likely to be depressed and attempt suicide. However, women tend to attempt suicide by overdose or asphyxiation. Men tend to commit suicide by firearm or hanging. The different means of suicide that men and women use give women more time to be found and are more easily treated. Methods generally used by men are more violent, and likelier to result in a quick death. Ergo, he wasn't playing oppression olympics: he was stating facts, and even admitted that men are more likely to succeed when attempting suicide.

Are they using instances or individuals?  Because that makes a huge difference.

But, of course, that aside, IMD is pure silliness. First off, men's health issues and men's social issues are more likely than women's issues to be taken seriously.

Then why does breast cancer get so much more attention than prostate cancer?

Good marketing and powerful special interest groups like the Susan G. Komen Foundation.

But why do they have that?

I'm sorry, but how exactly is spreading your legs across seats "patriarchal?"  It's rude, yeah, but I don't think it's a sign of patriarchy.

Red Herring, not what we're debating.

You're the one who brought it up.

Yeah, that's Oppression Olympics.  Just because men's health issues aren't as controversial doesn't make an awareness campaign unnecessary.  Everybody thinks breast cancer is a problem, and there are still awareness campaigns.

But why does the awareness campaign need to be in the form of a day? We're talking about it right now, almost a week removed from International Men's Day.

For the same reason we have Earth Day: there should be a day when we can focus on these issues.

Furthermore, plenty of men's issues get a lot of social criticism.  Father's rights, false rape claims, child support, etc.

Maybe from the most rabid user's on tumblr, but in the real world you would find very few people against giving men visitation rights to their child, or being awarded custody solely on gender. A few judges stick to that philosophy as that was the old way of doing things, but most are moving away from that. I speak from experience as I used to work for a judge.

Mind giving a source?

False rape claims, we've been over this. You're more likely to be falsely accused of just about any other crime than falsely accused of rape.

Again, I'd like a source.

Again, non-issue.

Tell that to Phi Kappa Psi.

Child support?

Let's start with one of the most grotesque: rape victims having to pay child support to care for their rape babies.

In Hermesmann v. Seyer, Colleen Hermesmann successfully argued that a woman is entitled to sue the father of her child for child support, even if conception occurred as a result of a criminal act committed by the woman.  This has been used as a precedent.  Repeatedly.

Also, what exactly do you mean by "pathology of the patriarchy?"

Jesus Triple Dancing Christ! Does anyone know how to research a fucking word on google? Ok Paragon, here goes nothing

1. Click HERE
2. Type in "pathology definition" (without the quotation marks)
3. Read this line "pathological features considered collectively; the typical behavior of a disease"
4. Insert the appropriate portion to learn that it means "the typical behavior of patriarchy" otherwise know as "how it manifests itself within society, between both men and women."

Or just read what I typed here.

Okay, sorry about that.

[davedan]

Are you really so disingenuous that you use that link to show feminists campaigning against being punished equally under the law

Just to be clear this link: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-13666066

Those mad out of control feminists like - the Chief Constable of Devon and Cornwall Police Stephen Otter?

Did you read that link? If you did then you are a liar as your description was maliciously inaccurate. Its about a Ministry of Justice taskforce to redirect short term (under a year) prison sentences for women, mainly it would seem to save the UK government money and because studies have proven that redirection rather than prison is more effective in reducing recidivism.

Then again I guess bearing false witness and lying is perfectly acceptable given your religious pretensions wasnt it in Matthew 6:26 when Jesus said "the birds have the trees and the lilies have the fields but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head because all those fucking feminist sluts have been let out of prison to ruin my gaming experience and oppress me. So do not turn the other cheek but fight them with whatever means necessary and do not do unto others but employ deceit and hyperbole"

[Ultimate Paragon]

Are you really so disingenuous that you use that link to show feminists campaigning against being punished equally under the law

Just to be clear this link: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-13666066

Those mad out of control feminists like - the Chief Constable of Devon and Cornwall Police Stephen Otter?

Did you read that link? If you did then you are a liar as your description was maliciously inaccurate. Its about a Ministry of Justice taskforce to redirect short term (under a year) prison sentences for women, mainly it would seem to save the UK government money and because studies have proven that redirection rather than prison is more effective in reducing recidivism.

And do you know who pushed for these closings?  The Women's Justice Taskforce.

Moreover, the fact that they're only doing this for women really sticks in my craw.

Let me also ask you this: do you want women like Rosemary West out of prison?

[The_Queen]

Okay, yeah, I was wrong about what he said.  However, for many of those issues where the patriarchy plays a role, there are also other factors involved.  For example, British feminists have fought against equal punishment under the law:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-13666066

1. Good you admit you were wrong. Do that more often.
2. Those ebil british feminists. It's tangential. You were wrong about McIntosh and you were wrong about what I said. Thus, I'm not even opening the link because it is trying to begin a new argument that I don't care about.

Are they using instances or individuals?  Because that makes a huge difference.

1. No it doesn't, and if it does, then please enlighten me as to how.
2. This really just seems like you goal post shifting from "this MAY not be true" to "okay, whatever, but what about this."
3. To entertain you, it is a literature study relying on a vast array of other sources and studies.

You're the one who brought it up.

Ah, but I did not bring up manspreading to prove the truth of the assertion. Instead, I brought it up as something that may have some credence to it that gets considerably more scrutiny than most silly men's issues, such as IMD.

For the same reason we have Earth Day: there should be a day when we can focus on these issues.

Weak metaphor. I've already shown how IMD is silly because it doesn't really do much. Comparing it to a day that brings attention to legitimate environmental concerns when half this country thinks global warming is a lie is a considerable difference that highlights what I'm saying. Earth Day is necessary because people are too fucking stupid. IMD isn't necessary for any comparable threat to men or any awareness reasons.

Mind giving a source?

Google, have you heard of it? How about this cite that shows that in some instances, stay at home dads get preference over working mom's. Or this one that shows that 91% of child custody decisions are made with no court involvement and tend to award the mother custody. Further, according to Phyllis Chesler's book, "Mothers on Trial," when fathers do challenge women for custody, they win 50-70% of the time, even if the father is abusive or drug-dependent. A large reason for this is courts focus on "the best interests of the child" and income is a kind of important. Damn pay gap.

Again, I'd like a source.

Fuck you with a tire iron. I gave you a source last time we debated this, and you ignored my source so that you could continue to act like you were right. I'm not wasting my time to find it for you.

Again, non-issue.

Tell that to Phi Kappa Psi.

Yeah, pesky thing about a crime that is primarily committed by men against women is that when false accusations do come up, they tend to be directed at men. That doesn't make false rape allegations a male problem, that makes rape a female problem that men collaterally feel an effect of.

Child support?

Let's start with one of the most grotesque: rape victims having to pay child support to care for their rape babies.

In Hermesmann v. Seyer, Colleen Hermesmann successfully argued that a woman is entitled to sue the father of her child for child support, even if conception occurred as a result of a criminal act committed by the woman.  This has been used as a precedent.  Repeatedly.

I looked up that case. To say it has been "used as precedent. Repeatedly." is a bald-face lie. It is still the law in Kansas, to be sure. But the case has been cited 109 times according to westlaw, 69 of which are secondary sources: law journals and other academic work (which looks to be very critical of the result). The portion relevant has been cited by 4 courts, three of which rejected it's logic. One court in Delaware in an unpublished opinion upheld it, finding that a mother who was a victim of an incestuous rape had a common law duty to provide for the resulting child when the father/ her brother had custody.

But I'm not here to play oppression olympics. Fact is, courts aren't perfect, some of them make mistakes. Some mistakes are terrible. Jim Crow for example. However, I do not see this as a male problem, but instead as part of a larger problem in which courts grant rapists parental rights. In something like 22 states, a rapist can rape a woman, and retain custody. Courts often rely on case precedence, and when they extend these rights to male rapists, they set the stage for the same outcome for female rapists.