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Community => Entertainment and Television => Topic started by: Ultimate Paragon on January 26, 2014, 01:15:58 am

Title: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on January 26, 2014, 01:15:58 am
This is a thread for discussing artists who have made great contributions, but were terrible people.

I think a good example would be Axl Rose.  He's a phenomenal musician, but also a massive prick.  I know he had a rough childhood, but so did Eminem, and for all the latter's controversy, he's nowhere near as much of a jerk as the former.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Katsuro on January 26, 2014, 05:04:39 am
I don't think a thread like this would be complete without mention of Wagner.  Amazing composer, horrible human being.

You could probably add just about every single famous rock muscian to the list too.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: SpaceProg on January 26, 2014, 08:21:55 am
Adolf Hitler was among the first to come to my mind.  I like a lot of his art.  It was dismissed in his time as being mediocre, but he did have an eye for detail and texture in a lot of his stuff.  I can relate because I strive for the same in the pictures I draw.  All he needed was some encouragement and honing and people could have been praising him today as a great artist instead of condemning him as the megalomaniacal madman he became.  I really wonder if that would have made any difference, though.  I don't know... that's a topic for a different thread entirely.

Anyway, it's weird how things work out the way they do, as well as extremely sad at times. 

...Unless the term "artists" only meant musical artists.  If so, forget I said anything here.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on January 26, 2014, 11:18:59 am
Don't worry, it's not just musicians.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Alehksunos on January 26, 2014, 01:42:34 pm
Do animators count too?

Anyway, first, we have Doug TenNapel, artist. He worked for a lot of cool stuff, like Earthworm Jim, G.E.A.R. (which I'm yet to have read, if I could only get a hold of it), and MDK, but he is also a fundamentalist Christian. They're always bad people.

And for animators, John Kricfalusi, most famous for the Ren & Stimpy Show. Although he's more so an opinionated asshole than a straight-up asshole, he frequently missed deadlines and got the boot from Nickelodeon. Of course, the later episodes (without his involvement) were finished and produced by Games Animations (and the quality of the show also started falling from there). The less we talk about the abysmal Adult Party episodes, the better.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Cataclysm on January 26, 2014, 02:42:49 pm
Well, going through the worst political cartoons, there's the one crazy conspiracy guy who draws lizard jews, and another guy who makes nationalistic paintings stating liberals and Obama are evil and possessed by satan.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Witchyjoshy on January 26, 2014, 02:46:08 pm
I can think of a few furry artists I could name, but in a few instances their "bad people" has led to them becoming "bad artists" through arrogance regarding their art style leading to making mistakes more pronounced.

But then I'm blatantly biased against them.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: I am lizard on January 26, 2014, 03:16:16 pm
Well, going through the worst political cartoons, there's the one crazy conspiracy guy who draws lizard jews, and another guy who makes nationalistic paintings stating liberals and Obama are evil and possessed by satan.
DavidDees
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Barbarella on January 26, 2014, 03:54:45 pm
Well, going through the worst political cartoons, there's the one crazy conspiracy guy who draws lizard jews, and another guy who makes nationalistic paintings stating liberals and Obama are evil and possessed by satan.
DavidDees

David Dees is indeed the the guy who does the former. I think the latter guy is Jon McNaughton. Both are good artists but both are wingnuts who create wingnutty things. Shame that they use their talent to make insanity.

DAVID DEES....
(http://i41.tinypic.com/153n337.jpg)
(http://i41.tinypic.com/15rxroh.jpg)
(http://i40.tinypic.com/2ef0r4o.jpg)


Strangely enough, Dees is an equal-opportunity hater. He's not too fond of Bush & Co. either....

(http://i44.tinypic.com/2cgn500.jpg)
(http://i44.tinypic.com/wvwrwn.jpg)


JON McNAUGHTON....
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2ik4gb4.jpg)
(http://i40.tinypic.com/f0494.jpg)
(http://i44.tinypic.com/160q7pe.jpg)

Technically & artistically talented & creative....but subject matter is disturbingly insane!
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Cloud3514 on January 26, 2014, 04:43:53 pm
Dave Mustaine, anyone?
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Barbarella on January 26, 2014, 05:15:03 pm
There was a cartoonist named Dick Hafer who did an anti-LGBT comic called,  Homosexuality: Legitimate Alternate Deathstyle. and a bunch of other weird frummy political wingnut stuff.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dick_Hafer

The weird thing is, as a cartoonist, from a technical standpoint, the way he draws stuff is actually quite hilarious....if you overlook the horrifying subject matter & disgusting stuff he says.

This comic says some of the sickest lies against LGBTs but the artwork style is surprisingly goofy & amusing:

http://www.ep.tc/problems/28/

But make no mistake, he's pure evil.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Cerim Treascair on January 26, 2014, 05:26:17 pm
I can think of a few furry artists I could name, but in a few instances their "bad people" has led to them becoming "bad artists" through arrogance regarding their art style leading to making mistakes more pronounced.

But then I'm blatantly biased against them.

Jay Naylor comes to mind... Objectivist fuck...
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: LeTipex on January 26, 2014, 07:13:39 pm
Adolph Hitler was among the first to come to my mind.  I like a lot of his art.  It was dismissed in his time as being mediocre, but he did have an eye for detail and texture in a lot of his stuff.  I can relate because I strive for the same in the pictures I draw.  All he needed was some encouragement and honing and people could have been praising him today as a great artist instead of condemning him as the megalomaniacal madman he became.  I really wonder if that would have made any difference, though.  I don't know... that's a topic for a different thread entirely.

Anyway, it's weird how things work out the way they do, as well as extremely sad at times. 

...Unless the term "artists" only meant musical artists.  If so, forget I said anything here.
There is a novel about that very thing, exploring the two lives of Adolf Hitler (the one he actually lived, and the one he could have lived had he been accepted in the Art School that rejected him before WWI). It's called La Part de L'Autre by french autor Eric-Emmanuel Schmitt. It's incredibly poignant and well written. I wonder if it was ever translated in english though.

Edit : apparently not. Though it was translated in german.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Sigmaleph on January 26, 2014, 08:46:23 pm
Orson Scott Card. Homophobic asshole, but I still like his books.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Sleepy on January 26, 2014, 08:51:56 pm
Ayn Rand was quite the jackhole, but I still enjoyed Anthem. It's a nice little story if you don't read much into the politics.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Søren on January 26, 2014, 09:03:30 pm
Furries.

So many...many...many furries
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: JohnE on January 26, 2014, 10:52:30 pm
Orson Scott Card. Homophobic asshole, but I still like his books.
HP Lovecraft. Racist as fuck.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: SpaceProg on January 26, 2014, 11:09:09 pm
Adolph Hitler was among the first to come to my mind.  I like a lot of his art.  It was dismissed in his time as being mediocre, but he did have an eye for detail and texture in a lot of his stuff.  I can relate because I strive for the same in the pictures I draw.  All he needed was some encouragement and honing and people could have been praising him today as a great artist instead of condemning him as the megalomaniacal madman he became.  I really wonder if that would have made any difference, though.  I don't know... that's a topic for a different thread entirely.

Anyway, it's weird how things work out the way they do, as well as extremely sad at times. 

...Unless the term "artists" only meant musical artists.  If so, forget I said anything here.
There is a novel about that very thing, exploring the two lives of Adolf Hitler (the one he actually lived, and the one he could have lived had he been accepted in the Art School that rejected him before WWI). It's called La Part de L'Autre by french autor Eric-Emmanuel Schmitt. It's incredibly poignant and well written. I wonder if it was ever translated in english though.

Edit : apparently not. Though it was translated in german.

That's a pity.  I don't know enough German or French for the book to make much sense more than likely.  I've always been a fan of those what-if scenarios. 
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Cloud3514 on January 26, 2014, 11:16:52 pm
Ayn Rand was quite the jackhole, but I still enjoyed Anthem. It's a nice little story if you don't read much into the politics.

On a similar note, I loved Terry Goodkind's "Wizard's First Rule." A shame about the rest of the Sword of Truth.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Captain Jack Harkness on January 26, 2014, 11:44:20 pm
So am I the only one who thinks that David Dee's work looks like it came straight out of a Cracked photoplasty?
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: solar. on January 27, 2014, 12:25:16 am
Dave Mustaine is the first one to come to mind. He's a talented guitarist, but he's also a homophobic fundie, a conspiracy theorist, and quite possibly a racist.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: davedan on January 27, 2014, 01:21:45 am
What no Woody Allen yet?
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Cerim Treascair on January 27, 2014, 01:22:58 am
Roman Polanski comes to mind...
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: SpaceProg on January 27, 2014, 02:43:25 am
^ Yes.  That's a good example indeed.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Yla on January 27, 2014, 06:21:26 am
Adolf Hitler was among the first to come to my mind.  I like a lot of his art.  It was dismissed in his time as being mediocre, but he did have an eye for detail and texture in a lot of his stuff.  I can relate because I strive for the same in the pictures I draw.  All he needed was some encouragement and honing and people could have been praising him today as a great artist instead of condemning him as the megalomaniacal madman he became.  I really wonder if that would have made any difference, though.  I don't know... that's a topic for a different thread entirely.

Anyway, it's weird how things work out the way they do, as well as extremely sad at times. 

...Unless the term "artists" only meant musical artists.  If so, forget I said anything here.
I'm wondering... does this count as an instance of Godwin's Law?
Exploring new contexts every day!
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: SpaceProg on January 27, 2014, 09:44:31 am
I don't know.  It wasn't used as leverage or an insult in a debate or flamewar.   I'm verging on not, but if it is, oh well. :p
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Cloud3514 on January 27, 2014, 02:02:11 pm
Ted Nugent is actually a pretty good guitarist and has written some good songs.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on January 27, 2014, 05:11:20 pm
Hitler had potential as a painter and was a surprisingly good architect, but he was a terrible writer.  Mein Kampf is unbelievably boring and confusing.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: ironbite on January 27, 2014, 06:10:01 pm
And yet millions of Germans read it, agreed with it, and marched to his tune because of it.

Ironbite-man had charisma out the ass.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Askold on January 28, 2014, 10:09:18 am
Sean Connery has advocated wife beating/slapping in an interview.

Still an amazing actor but it does not excuse that opinion.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: chitoryu12 on January 28, 2014, 11:28:48 am
Orson Scott Card. Homophobic asshole, but I still like his books.

I remember when the Ender's Game film finally became a thing, and the boycotts began. Someone on the internet, I think one of the TGWTG crew, made a blog talking about how we shouldn't boycott the film because it'll ruin the careers of the non-Orson Scott Card people involved in it.

I speak as someone who actually acts professionally (I make money from it), and someone who's been part of film productions. If I was given the chance to be part of the movie, I'm divided on what I would do. It's an extremely prominent Hollywood film, and networking is the most vital part to a successful acting career. I've gotten closer to living the dream simply by going out and working in the business than I ever did while trying to get through college as a theatre major. At the same time, my own personal beliefs regarding civil rights would leave a bad taste in my mouth if I willingly participated in a project that would give profit and prominence to such a hateful, backwards man.

In the end, you act at your own risk. People talk about the crew, but those guys are going to be fine; unless we're talking something like a remake of Birth of a Nation, nobody is going to give the crew and production team a hard time for their project. Electricians, script supervisors, and camera operators will always be able to find work regardless of how bad one of their big projects tanks. But for an actor, every project you take is a major risk. Even if you get paid millions up front and become independently wealthy from that single project, one slipup can ruin you. Sometimes that's a risk you have to take. But sometimes it's a risk you should acknowledge and avoid.

I don't feel bad about refusing to see Ender's Game (or at the very least, refusing to pay for any Orson Scott Card product). The boycott against the film began where there was barely anything but a teaser trailer available, and his loud stance on homosexuality has been well known for years before then; nobody should have gone into the production blind regarding what backlash could have occurred (and did occur).

And in reality, it seems like nothing actually happened to ruin anyone's careers: almost all of the actors had established careers (yes, even the kid playing Ender), and the director probably got more shit for X-Men Origins: Wolverine than he did for Ender's Game.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on January 29, 2014, 10:47:33 am
How about Harlan Ellison?  What a douche he is.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: JohnE on January 29, 2014, 11:21:36 am
How about Harlan Ellison?  What a douche he is.
True dat. I've seen him give talks and on panels at conventions. He's an ass.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: chitoryu12 on January 29, 2014, 11:29:30 am
I've only heard stories about the guy. There was one I wish I could find again where he started rather creepily hitting on a woman at a convention or something and she totally shut him down.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: I am lizard on January 29, 2014, 08:11:48 pm
Andrew Hussie (he knows good and well what. He did)
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Caitshidhe on January 30, 2014, 12:09:55 am
James Brown. Good singer, spectacular flamboyant fashion sense, HORRIBLE HUMAN BEING.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: chitoryu12 on January 30, 2014, 12:27:44 am
Andrew Hussie (he knows good and well what. He did)

*raises hand* I don't.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Barbarella on January 30, 2014, 11:33:46 am
Andrew Hussie (he knows good and well what. He did)

*raises hand* I don't.

Me, neither.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Vypernight on January 30, 2014, 03:36:21 pm
Tom Cruise:  Hell of an actor, hell of an arrogant power-hungry, mainpulative piece of shit.

 
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on January 30, 2014, 04:04:21 pm
Andrew Hussie (he knows good and well what. He did)
Did he kill off your favorite character?
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: kefkaownsall on January 30, 2014, 10:01:28 pm
I got a couple Isyama Hajime of SNK fame
great artist great writer horrible racist
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on January 30, 2014, 11:53:24 pm
There is a novel about that very thing, exploring the two lives of Adolf Hitler (the one he actually lived, and the one he could have lived had he been accepted in the Art School that rejected him before WWI). It's called La Part de L'Autre by french autor Eric-Emmanuel Schmitt. It's incredibly poignant and well written. I wonder if it was ever translated in english though.

Edit : apparently not. Though it was translated in german.
You know, that reminds me of this picture:

(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/642/342/000.jpg)
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Alehksunos on January 30, 2014, 11:57:02 pm
Andrew Hussie (he knows good and well what. He did)
Did he kill off your favorite character?
I think it's more that one comic he did a long time ago or something along the lines of that, which I've heard of or haven't seen. I haven't asked what it could be since I'm sure Homestucks refuse to speak of it.

Also, Kefka, SNK as in Shin Nihon Kikaku or that that Attack on Titan manga and anime (I've recently discovered the correct translation is "Attack of the Titans") that everybody crows about?
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Ghoti on January 31, 2014, 12:21:38 am
What, three pages and no mention of Alfred Hitchcock OR Stanley Kubrick? They both have fantastic movies but dear god did they terrorize their casts to make them.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Igor on January 31, 2014, 12:36:32 am
Along those lines, remember Orson Welles? You know, Citizen Kane, that radio version of War of the Worlds that freaked everyone out? Apparently he was really hard to work with.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6P1ifGjvEE
(Granted, this is... towards the end of his career, after he'd burnt most of his bridges already.)
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist on January 31, 2014, 12:57:53 am
I'm more surprised that John Lennon hasn't been mentioned. Great lyricist and talented with the piano and guitar. Hugely influential musician. Poster child for peace, love and harmony. Also a wife beater, emotionally neglectful and abusive towards his eldest son, incredibly arrogant, and frequently hypocritical. He improved somewhat towards the end of his life, but was pretty shitty up until his murder.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: kefkaownsall on January 31, 2014, 12:59:57 am
Attack on Titan he said Koreans should be thankful for Japan's agression
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on January 31, 2014, 11:56:48 am
Attack on Titan he said Koreans should be thankful for Japan's agression
Who?  Do you mean one of the people behind Attack on Titan?  I think that's what you meant.

By the way, I think we'd be remiss if nobody mentioned Mel Gibson.  Good actor, good director, terrible person.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: kefkaownsall on January 31, 2014, 12:22:27 pm
.......no i mean the one guy behind the manga
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on January 31, 2014, 12:24:28 pm
.......no i mean the one guy behind the manga
Okay, I get you now.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: kefkaownsall on January 31, 2014, 12:33:00 pm
Also lets not forget this guy (https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQPr2GSr_pFw0j_pcDmlI96zL7dY21AspCzyAXb0P9r0j-8UBPi)
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: SpaceProg on January 31, 2014, 02:23:34 pm
I have no idea who that guy is.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Dakota Bob on January 31, 2014, 02:27:32 pm
That's Spoony. I actually enjoy his reviews, but didn't post some rape-y stuff on Twitter once?
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Thejebusfire on January 31, 2014, 02:36:01 pm
Thomas Kinkade conned a bunch of art dealers/gallery owners forcing a lot of them out of business. He may have also been embezzling money from his own company and scamming all the old ladies who bought his crap.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Witchyjoshy on January 31, 2014, 02:37:31 pm
I don't know about Spoony, all I really remember is his absolutely abhorrent fanbase that takes everything he says as gospel truth (when he's saying shit to be funny) and the fact that he left/was let go from TGWTG over a breakdown of some sort and only recently started showing up again.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: ironbite on January 31, 2014, 05:09:14 pm
No he's been around for awhile.  Just, the whole melt-down thing was both chemical and losing his long time girlfriend.  Luckily he's in a much better place mentally and physically.  But he's still a douche-bag.

Ironbite-his fanbase is worse.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: chitoryu12 on January 31, 2014, 06:32:56 pm
That's Spoony. I actually enjoy his reviews, but didn't post some rape-y stuff on Twitter once?

Long story short, he posted a lot of rather bad rape jokes (not even the kind that you feel bad for laughing at; they were just plain bad and offensive) related to a female coworker from TGWTG. And while he got called out for being so tastelessly offensive and mean and made a public apology, Lupa (another TGWTG chick) got into an argument with him about it and Spoony went completely batshit nuts. He went into a self-destructive "Everyone is thin-skinned and it's not my fault" spiral that ended with him getting suspended from the website, then leaving; officially the departure wasn't due to the controversy, but pretty much nobody believes that.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: kefkaownsall on January 31, 2014, 07:01:01 pm
it wasn't really a joke sorry but saying i want to chain you up is mroe a threat
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: chitoryu12 on January 31, 2014, 07:06:35 pm
It was a joke, just extremely poorly done. It's possible to make that kind of thing humorous (as seen here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqgiEQXGetI)), but simply making a statement of "Imma kidnap and rape you" has no humor. There's no punchline, no connection to anything that could turn it into something funny. He's just expecting it to be funny standing on its own. Rape jokes are almost impossible to make funny, and Spoony never even came close.

It's part of the reason PewDiePie got such a hatedom: he not only made a stupid amount of rape jokes, but they weren't even jokes. He just said stuff like "Imma rape you" over and over like an elementary schooler who learned a dirty word.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: I am lizard on January 31, 2014, 07:52:08 pm
It was a joke, just extremely poorly done. It's possible to make that kind of thing humorous (as seen here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqgiEQXGetI)), but simply making a statement of "Imma kidnap and rape you" has no humor. There's no punchline, no connection to anything that could turn it into something funny. He's just expecting it to be funny standing on its own. Rape jokes are almost impossible to make funny, and Spoony never even came close.

It's part of the reason PewDiePie got such a hatedom: he not only made a stupid amount of rape jokes, but they weren't even jokes. He just said stuff like "Imma rape you" over and over like an elementary schooler who learned a dirty word.
If you're going to be offensive, at least put effort into it, don't just go L0LZ0R5 R493!!!!!!111!!!1!!
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: ironbite on January 31, 2014, 09:14:58 pm
Spoony leaving TGWTG was a combination he didn't like where the site was going, he didn't like Doug was "retiring" the Nostalgia Critic character, and he wasn't happy with his role on the site of the number 3 guy behind Linkara and Doug.  Add the stress of his life plus a bunch of shit that headed his way and he snapped under pressure.  All in all I found the fact that they managed to make Spoony less of a part of To Boldly Flee and gave us an amazing performance as Terl and they didn't cut that much out of the special after he did leave is an achievement to the producers and directors of the special.

The fact that he was right about JesuOtaku being a lying two-face bitch doesn't excuse the "hey I'll chain you to my radiator until you love me" joke though.

Ironbite-not even a little.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on February 02, 2014, 04:48:03 pm
Going back a little bit, let's bring up Carlo Gesualdo.  A renaissance-era composer, he wrote some of the most intensely expressive classical music of his time.  However, he was also an abuser, murderer, and all around bastard.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: kefkaownsall on February 02, 2014, 04:57:58 pm
In many ways the patrons of Bach were artists since they commissioned him and they were assholes not liking that his music was different.  also good artist but a bad person whoever painted all those portraits of Beethoven he was not white
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on February 02, 2014, 05:09:49 pm
also good artist but a bad person whoever painted all those portraits of Beethoven he was not white
He wasn't?  What makes you say that?
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: kefkaownsall on February 02, 2014, 05:22:19 pm
http://open.salon.com/blog/ronp01/2009/09/27/the_african_heritage_of_ludwig_van_beethoven
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on February 02, 2014, 05:25:56 pm
Wow, I had no idea.  Maybe I'll point that out to a White Nationalist.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist on February 02, 2014, 06:02:01 pm
The claim that Beethoven was black is dubious at best. Those descriptions, when used in a modern context, might imply black ancestry, but in Beethoven's day they were applied to anyone whose complexion and features differed from those of the average northern European. If I were alive back then, many of those descriptors could be applied to me (very curly hair, thick lips, darker features) despite the fact that I have no black ancestry (I do have non-white ancestry, but several of those features were also influenced by white ancestors with darker features -- Welsh, French, etc.). Likewise, research into Beethoven's ancestry indicates that his father was Flemish and his mother had a good amount of Germanic ancestry. All of this adds up to a man with an olive, Mediterranean-like complexion who might have had some Moorish ancestry somewhere down the line, but was (to use modern terms) predominately white.

Straight Dope covered it here: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2598/was-ludwig-van-beethoven-of-african-ancestry
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on February 03, 2014, 12:33:24 pm
How about Euronymous?  He was one of the most groundbreaking guitarists in extreme metal, but he was also a sick bastard.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: solar. on February 03, 2014, 12:41:32 pm
How about Euronymous?  He was one of the most groundbreaking guitarists in extreme metal, but he was also a sick bastard.

Or Varg Vikernes for that matter. Great musician, but he's a batshit insane Neo-Nazi.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on February 03, 2014, 12:43:56 pm
How about Euronymous?  He was one of the most groundbreaking guitarists in extreme metal, but he was also a sick bastard.

Or Varg Vikernes for that matter. Great musician, but he's a batshit insane Neo-Nazi.
He's a White Nationalist, but not a Neo-Nazi.  He believes in democracy, for one thing.  It's a bit of a sticking point for him.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Cerim Treascair on February 03, 2014, 12:45:05 pm
How about Euronymous?  He was one of the most groundbreaking guitarists in extreme metal, but he was also a sick bastard.

Or Varg Vikernes for that matter. Great musician, but he's a batshit insane Neo-Nazi.
He's a White Nationalist, but not a Neo-Nazi.  He believes in democracy, for one thing.  It's a bit of a sticking point for him.

Which means... what? "America's for the white people, but the jews and blacks are okay"?
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on February 03, 2014, 12:48:39 pm
How about Euronymous?  He was one of the most groundbreaking guitarists in extreme metal, but he was also a sick bastard.

Or Varg Vikernes for that matter. Great musician, but he's a batshit insane Neo-Nazi.
He's a White Nationalist, but not a Neo-Nazi.  He believes in democracy, for one thing.  It's a bit of a sticking point for him.

Which means... what? "America's for the white people, but the jews and blacks are okay"?
He's not American.  He's Norwegian.  And he's a monstrous racist, he just doesn't like fascism.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: solar. on February 03, 2014, 12:53:01 pm
Err, thanks for informing me.

On that note, most people in extreme metal are massive sexists, homophobes and transphobes.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: kefkaownsall on February 03, 2014, 01:34:21 pm
Not Rammstein
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: MadCatTLX on February 03, 2014, 02:32:27 pm
Not Rammstein

Here's their very NSFW performance of Buck Dich.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: kefkaownsall on February 03, 2014, 06:20:25 pm
I dunno if they were trying to be ironic
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: mellenORL on February 03, 2014, 09:08:43 pm
I dunno if they were trying to be ironic
I think they were, because I lawled at that stunt. Poking fun at hypersexual macho fantasy, mayhap?
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist on February 03, 2014, 11:28:56 pm
He's a White Nationalist, but not a Neo-Nazi.  He believes in democracy, for one thing.  It's a bit of a sticking point for him.

Eh, same shit, different pile.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: kefkaownsall on February 05, 2014, 01:07:01 am
Rammstein's concerts are weird like they are one of the few pyros who actually know what they are legally doing
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Katsuro on February 05, 2014, 10:37:47 am
Err, thanks for informing me.

On that note, most people in extreme metal are massive sexists, homophobes and transphobes.

Most?  I disagree.  Though it might depend on what you mean by extreme metal.   Although I am aware there are a lot of neo-nazi metal bands but almost none of them have any kind of mainstream succes and they tend to be very underground, no sane record label would touch them with a barge poll.

I don't know how anyone can claim to be a fan of any kind of metal and be homophobic anyway when one of the most important and influential figures in metal history is gay.  I apologise if this is a bit of a "no true scotsman" but anyone like that IMO isn't a real metal fan and can fuck right off.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Katsuro on February 05, 2014, 10:38:34 am
Rammstein's concerts are weird like they are one of the few pyros who actually know what they are legally doing

The lead singer is a trained and licensed pyrotechnician isn't he?
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Katsuro on February 05, 2014, 10:43:28 am
I dunno if they were trying to be ironic

Considering Rammstein's penchant for over the top tongue-in-cheek sillyness it's almost certain they're not being serious.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: solar. on February 05, 2014, 12:30:17 pm
Err, thanks for informing me.

On that note, most people in extreme metal are massive sexists, homophobes and transphobes.

Most?  I disagree.  Though it might depend on what you mean by extreme metal.   Although I am aware there are a lot of neo-nazi metal bands but almost none of them have any kind of mainstream succes and they tend to be very underground, no sane record label would touch them with a barge poll.

I don't know how anyone can claim to be a fan of any kind of metal and be homophobic anyway when one of the most important and influential figures in metal history is gay.  I apologise if this is a bit of a "no true scotsman" but anyone like that IMO isn't a real metal fan and can fuck right off.
What I mean by "extreme metal" is doom, thrash, death and black metal.

I do agree with you about Rob Halford, but the singer from Megadeth, one of the more mainstream metal bands, said that the last thing he needs is "a bunch of homos picketing us" in response to a question about Judas Priest.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Katsuro on February 05, 2014, 12:57:00 pm
Well he is a bit of a Christian fundie so that kind of goes hand-in-hand with homophobia.  He's also just generally an all-round certified douchebag who has at some point managed to piss off just about everyone in the metal industry.  He's also, coincidentally, a conspiracy nutter.  He's such a monumental twat that I feel bad any time I buy one of their albums (old megadeth albums kicked serious amounts of ass, musically speaking).

As for death and black metal bands most of the ones I follow are too busy with norse mythology and general fantasy bullshit to bother saying anything homophobic lol.  I do know though that the earlier black metal scene had a lot of assholes in it, as well as a few figures who were more than a little messed up.

Should probably mentioned too that the singer of Gorgoroth is gay (he's also among the messed up memebers of the black metal fraternity, so the messed up ones aren't always homophobic too lol) .  But he's the only openly gay member of an extreme metal band that I can think of off the top of my head.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: kefkaownsall on February 05, 2014, 12:58:40 pm
Rammstein's concerts are weird like they are one of the few pyros who actually know what they are legally doing

The lead singer is a trained and licensed pyrotechnician isn't he?
Yeah actually said guy had a hard life and he's the whipping boy in the music videos so it might be his way of coping
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Katsuro on February 05, 2014, 01:03:21 pm
Rammstein's concerts are weird like they are one of the few pyros who actually know what they are legally doing

The lead singer is a trained and licensed pyrotechnician isn't he?
Yeah actually said guy had a hard life and he's the whipping boy in the music videos so it might be his way of coping

Yeah the S&M aspects of Rammstein's videos and stage performances are often less than subtle.  I remember being particularly weirded out by the image from one of their videos of Snow White spanking one of the band members who was playing a dwarf lol.
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: kefkaownsall on February 05, 2014, 01:04:37 pm
I think that is him trying to cope.  Either way its rather Germanic
Title: Re: Good artists, bad people
Post by: Katsuro on February 05, 2014, 01:14:00 pm
I think that is him trying to cope.  Either way its rather Germanic

Funny you should say that 'coz I was once told by a German that spanking is thought of as a British fetish in mainland Europe lol.

Although as the Angles, Saxons, Vikings and Normans were all germanic or of germanic descent that does make Britain germanic (even if we don't usually think of oursevles as such) so I guess you're still right lol.