Israel attacks Gaza... again...

[Osama bin Bambi]

Relevant

http://www.theonion.com/articles/netanyahu-feeling-like-trip-to-us-to-start-world-w,29732/

[armandtanzarian]

Uh actually the government is right inline with the population.  http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/survey-most-israeli-jews-would-support-apartheid-regime-in-israel.premium-1.471644

Its on subscription, and the update I see seems to have a caveat to it. Still, if this is true, then... I think I'm gonna leave this thread now.

[kefkaownsall]

Basically 1/3 of Israleis think that if annexed West Bank residents shouldn't be able to vote

[Rabbit of Caerbannog]

Basically 1/3 of Israleis think that if annexed West Bank residents shouldn't be able to vote

So 2/3 of Israelis are sane? Fine, the crazies are still outnumbered.

[SkyTrekTower]

Basically 1/3 of Israleis think that if annexed West Bank residents shouldn't be able to vote

So 2/3 of Israelis are sane? Fine, the crazies are still outnumbered.

I saw the study.  Those in favor of apartheid were members of the Haredi(Ultra-Orthodox) sect.  From what I remember reading, most Haredis in the West Bank are in favor of apartheid, but as a whole, most Israeli's aren't.

[kefkaownsall]

That was only one part of it.  I'll link to the full summary.  I was pointing out the worst bit.  http://israelfacts.tumblr.com/post/34176231208/survey-most-israeli-jews-would-support-apartheid  Sorry for the title only way to get a free summary.

[largeham]

I guess I'm the odd one out. No I don't support Israel at all. And before Agni calls me Hitler 2.0, opposing the existence of Israel is not the same as me wishing for a second Holocaust. Israel is an apartheid state founded and based on ethnic cleansing. It is essentially a modern version of the colonial settler states in Africa (Rhodesia, etc). I don't support rocket attacks on civilians, but against the police and military? Fuck them, they are the boots on the ground heading the occupation.

There will never be two states. Even if their was and we go back to the 1967 borders, each country is split into three. Any Palestinian state would be utterly dependent on Israel's goodwill. There will only be one state, either an apartheid state that covers the entire area, where Palestinians are second-class citizens at best, or one state where whoever the fuck wants to live there can with same level of rights. No prizes for guessing which one is more likely.

As for anti-Semetism, there are many Jewish organisations that oppose the state of Israel's existence, let alone say Norman Finkelstein.

Great video (IMO):
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O5zgXeCynQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O5zgXeCynQ</a>

[Smurfette Principle]

I'm fine with Israel existing if they could just stop picking on Palestine. I don't think it's anti-Semetic to point out things that Israel does wrong any more than it's sexist to tell off Sarah Palin.

[kefkaownsall]

So the current death toll is 18 Palestinian and 3 Israeli.  Bibi claims Hamas is putting them on civilian targets.  Wish I could confirm that.  Also Anony ous joined Gaza
http://www.salon.com/2012/11/15/anonymous_retaliates_to_israels_gaza_internet_threat/

[Lt. Fred]

Israeli expansionism will end the day the US threatens to bomb Tel Aviv if it continues.

So in other words, Israeli expansionism will never end.

Hopefully the US will one day force Israel to stand on its own two feet. Cut from the US massive fiscal, military and diplomatic support the state might actually collapse. Or it might nuke everyone. Or it might become a rational, modern state.

These attacks into Gaza are not about expansion, but about retaliation for rockets attacks.

No, they're not. The Israelis like having rocket attacks. They never hurt a serious number of Israelis (and they rarely, if ever, kill any) while providing a good excuse to launch this kind of invasion, reinforcing the walls of the Gaza open-air prison. If they didn't want rocket attacks, they could sign the dozens of peace initiatives and unconditional ceasefires the Gazans have offered.

It's stupid (for others; not blaming m52 here) to equally blame Palestinians and Israel. Israel is a developed, organised state run by an advanced defence force. Palestinians are, potentially, some kid with a bottle rocket or a guy recently out of jail with a grudge. You can't demand the latter be reasonable on condition of the former not using their actions as an excuse for murdering every Palestinian in sight,

Also, can I make it clear that I support Israel, to the extent that the phrase has meaning: I support the existence of a State of Israel within its actual borders enjoying peace with its neighbours. In my opinion, the people calling for or responsible for Israel's very aggressive foreign policy do not support Israel.

[Rabbit of Caerbannog]

I guess I'm the odd one out. No I don't support Israel at all. And before Agni calls me Hitler 2.0, opposing the existence of Israel is not the same as me wishing for a second Holocaust. Israel is an apartheid state founded and based on ethnic cleansing. It is essentially a modern version of the colonial settler states in Africa (Rhodesia, etc). I don't support rocket attacks on civilians, but against the police and military? Fuck them, they are the boots on the ground heading the occupation.

Well if we really wanna go this route the United States was founded on ethnic cleansing and we operated a brutal Jim Crow system for most of our history. And I don't mean to sound callous but at a certain point you have to say what's done is done. There's an Israeli nation that is recognized by most countries as being legitimate. I support the two state solution, would allow for Palestine to join the United Nations and would try to help them economically to get them off the ground. After all, look at all the financial and military support we send to Israel. I also oppose the construction of further settlements on Palestinian land. Yes there are already Israeli settlers on the West Bank but there's no need to exacerbate the problem by constructing more settlements as Bibi desires.

And on the topic of Norman Finkelstein, I suggest people read The Holocaust Industry. Very interesting book.

[Osama bin Bambi]

I guess I'm the odd one out. No I don't support Israel at all. And before Agni calls me Hitler 2.0, opposing the existence of Israel is not the same as me wishing for a second Holocaust. Israel is an apartheid state founded and based on ethnic cleansing. It is essentially a modern version of the colonial settler states in Africa (Rhodesia, etc). I don't support rocket attacks on civilians, but against the police and military? Fuck them, they are the boots on the ground heading the occupation.

largeham, when you say that you think Israel should cease to exist, what do you mean by that? Do you think that the country of Israel and the Palestinian territories should merge into one state?

I'd also like to point out that Zionism is not one monolithic ideology, just as communism is not one monolithic ideology. There are small variations and subsets of it. Kadima is a liberal Zionist party that supports the idea of a Jewish state but also believes that granting statehood to Palestine is necessary for a more democratic society in Israel. The batshit ones are the revisionist Zionists such as Likud.

You seem to be suggesting that rocket attacks on Israeli military and police forces are morally justified. While being part of the police force is a voluntary form of employment, Israel has a near-universal draft. Some of the people who enlist only do so because they're essentially forced to. (Even though there's a refusenik movement in Israel, refusing still carries a social stigma, from what I understand.)

[RavynousHunter]

Refusing the draft's always had a social stigma, no matter the country.  Apparently, you're a pussy if you don't want to be forced to fight a war you don't agree with, or die for a country you may or may not even like.

[Lt. Fred]

If you're in the defence force of a country at war you're a legitimate target. Telling the Palestinians they're morally not allowed to return fire at the idiots murdering them is, I think, a pretty horrific double-standard.

[davedan]

Whether you're a zionist or not, or support the state of Israel or not... it's pretty much a practical political reality now. I think there has to be a single state solution. Largely because the Palestinian territories are not capable of being self supporting. Certainly they never will be while their infrastructure keeps getting blown up.

Unfortunately for some on both sides there is a vested interest in the continuing conflict.

Ultimately it would seem to me that a single state with equal voting rights is the only realisitic long term solution.