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The Lounge / Re: Things That Annoy You
« Last post by Askold on September 17, 2021, 01:17:25 am »
a) Today is going to be a busy day, but it started with me and my wife washing a shitty cat. Now both my hands are bleeding so much that I have to use bandaids.

b) The shitty cat messed our bed as well.


c) Among the 8 pages of spam that I deleted here, there were a bunch of Ivermectin and Bitcoin adds. Buying either from a shady online source is likely to ruin you.
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Forum Games / Re: Sexy, Neutral, not sexy.
« Last post by Random Dinosaur on September 16, 2021, 01:51:37 am »
Neutral. Being too much alike could be really great or really horrible depending on what things mentally match.

Swords.
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Forum Games / Re: Wishes Will Be Corrupted
« Last post by Random Dinosaur on September 16, 2021, 01:49:31 am »
Granted. You were thinking about suicide at the time.

I wish my best friend lived in the same neighborhood as me, instead of on the other side of the continent.
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Religion and Philosophy / Re: If you had the power, would you kill the Trinity?
« Last post by davedan on September 15, 2021, 08:46:10 pm »
I'm not sure you know what androgynous means? I think you will find that if literalists imagined an androgynous Yahweh they wouldn't have a preconception of whether Jesus was male or female or in-between. I think you mean that the literalists imagine a masculine Yahweh.

But if Yahweh is masculine what about 'Elohim'.

I also don't see why a modern gnostic would confine themselves to the authorised versions of scripture and not consider the jewish scriptures, talmud, koran or apocrypha but then again I think about modern gnostics in the same way as I view modern pagans.
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Religion and Philosophy / Re: If you had the power, would you kill the Trinity?
« Last post by Tolpuddle Martyr on September 15, 2021, 06:25:03 pm »
Righto, not for me to define your religion for you. Might have overstepped there.

This is a really weird conversation to be having on this mostly abandoned forum. Thanks for the extra info on gnostics anyway, interesting stuff.
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Religion and Philosophy / Re: If you had the power, would you kill the Trinity?
« Last post by Gnostic Christian on September 15, 2021, 04:56:19 pm »
Interesting factoid,

Jesus was never anointed Christ.

Christians run from that fact.

A good thing for Jesus, because literalist would have an androgynous Yahweh and that would make Jesus female.
 
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Religion and Philosophy / Re: If you had the power, would you kill the Trinity?
« Last post by Gnostic Christian on September 15, 2021, 04:51:33 pm »
Interesting factoid, its not clear if Gnostics were trinitarians. From Wikipedia.

Quote
Alexandria was of central importance for the birth of Gnosticism. The Christian ecclesia (i. e. congregation, church) was of Jewish–Christian origin, but also attracted Greek members, and various strands of thought were available, such as "Judaic apocalypticism, speculation on divine wisdom, Greek philosophy, and Hellenistic mystery religions."[30]

Regarding the angel Christology of some early Christians, Darrell Hannah notes:

[Some] early Christians understood the pre-incarnate Christ, ontologically, as an angel. This "true" angel Christology took many forms and may have appeared as early as the late First Century, if indeed this is the view opposed in the early chapters of the Epistle to the Hebrews. The Elchasaites, or at least Christians influenced by them, paired the male Christ with the female Holy Spirit, envisioning both as two gigantic angels. Some Valentinian Gnostics supposed that Christ took on an angelic nature and that he might be the Saviour of angels. The author of the Testament of Solomon held Christ to be a particularly effective "thwarting" angel in the exorcism of demons. The author of De Centesima and Epiphanius' "Ebionites" held Christ to have been the highest and most important of the first created archangels, a view similar in many respects to Hermas' equation of Christ with Michael. Finally, a possible exegetical tradition behind the Ascension of Isaiah and attested by Origen's Hebrew master, may witness to yet another angel Christology, as well as an angel Pneumatology.[31]

The pseudepigraphical Christian text Ascension of Isaiah identifies Jesus with angel Christology:

[The Lord Christ is commissioned by the Father] And I heard the voice of the Most High, the father of my LORD as he said to my LORD Christ who will be called Jesus, 'Go out and descend through all the heavens...[32]

So if the Gnostic Christians believed Christ was an angel that'd mean they didn't think he was literally God which is a central tenet of trinitarianism.

Why have we got a 'gnostic Christian' asking us if we want to kill something which his faith doesn't seem to acknowledge anyway?

That is not what we believe.

Start with knowing that we are naturalists, like Christianity used to be, and are not stupid enough to believe in anything supernatural.

Remember that most of what was written, was written from the hands of those who feared the inquisitors.

Study the Cathars if you wish to see what a modern Gnostic Christian is. Their highest possible epitome of a god was a Parfait. A perfected man.

Much like what Chrestianity was before the stupid literal reading of myths screwed up all religions.

The following shows our thinking and why we cherry pick the universalist Gnostic  Jesus out of the  archetype Jesus' in scriptures.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental efforts that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

Regards
DL




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Religion and Philosophy / Re: If you had the power, would you kill the Trinity?
« Last post by Gnostic Christian on September 15, 2021, 04:41:40 pm »
If you had the power, would you kill the Trinity?

I have killed many animals. Some with intent and others by accident.

The notion of killing a person, I find abhorrent. Sometimes it is necessary and or just.

After reading reports of God/Yahweh and Jesus killing instead of curing, the opposite of the thing Jesus said he came to do, --- one has to reject and condemn those mass murderers.

Given the Trinity god’s genocidal character, I would gladly kill the Trinity.

Would you?

As Trump would say, Trinity very very bad. Really Bad.

Regards
DL

It's a bit of a conundrum trying to kill the trinity since none of it's component parts are technically alive. JC got stabbed and left on a Roman torture/PR pole, the Holy Ghost, is well - a ghost and the "father", the bit that can be traced back to Yahweh in the OT doesn't have an origin, doesn't exist in this world and lacks key criteria for living things including physicality and a lifespan.

I mean you could argue that an omni-everything entity is "alive" in a meta Star Trek sense, i.e. "not as we know it" but posing a question as to how one offs an omni everything thingy with three dead components that maybe sorta aren't dead is one of those how many angels dance on pinheads queries that doesn't really have an answer which isn't to say people can't argue about it. It's the internet, people can shitpost about anything!

You are partially right on the speculative nonsense aspects of the question.

The reality aspects I concede.

The question is a moral judgement call and thus has an end game on that side.

I see it as asking the S.S. if they still love Hitler.

Better still, like asking Christians if they would light the fuse for Armageddon.

When faced with a truth, Christians run for the hills.

Funny if not so sad.

Regards
DL
As regards Hitler, I can see that as relevant if we're discussing if it's ever morally right to commit murder, even if it's against a tyrant. I'd cautiously argue that yes, it can be but in the case of killing The Trinity I'd need a lot more information, like how much of the OT and the NT is literally true, parable or hearsay.

We all know what Hitler did, there were a lot of witnesses, photographic evidence and physical evidence. When it comes to biblical history, apart from biblical sources, there's not a lot to go on. Aside from the Hebrew people being a minor kingdom who's existence was acknowledged by the Egyptians and forced into provincial status by the Romans.  If you wanted to judge the actions of contemporaneous figures from the time of biblical history like Israelite kings, Roman Emperors and Egyptian pharaohs you'd have an easier time of it because it's easier to piece together what their actions were. That has a big bearing on your original question, would you kill the Trinity. You need to have some evidence of what the Trinity actually did before you start talking about justifiable homicide.

More pertinent is whether this person/party of three still exists, if that could be shown to be true then the case for killing them would become a lot stronger if the New Testament is any guide to its plans or motives. If, for example, the Trinity really was planning to enact Revelations with the whole orgy of violence, wine vats filled with bleeding skulls, ruining of the Earth and indefinite imprisonment/torture for most of the world's population then yes, killing would absolutely be justified and you'd have a very strong case for doing so as it's more defensible to kill for self defence than as a punishment for past actions.

We can only go by what the bible says of the Trinity.

It shows a genocidal Yahweh with Noah's flood and promises Jesus' Armageddon and yet another genocide.

Regards
DL

9
Religion and Philosophy / Re: Was Adam supposed to sin in God's great plan?
« Last post by Gnostic Christian on September 15, 2021, 04:36:39 pm »
Of course that was the point, if there's no fall there's no lesson to be learned. Just a weird human zoo where the inhabitants munch on anything not apple related. It'd make the bible a lot shorter, less bloody and a whole lot less confusing.

It's basic worldbuilding, no conflict, no interest, nobody cares.

True that all good hero yarns needs a villain.

Adding to what I just asked our friend, do you see Eden as where we fell or more like where we were elevated.

You will likely know that Christians call it a fall with a negative Original Sin, while Jews call it our elevation and positive Original Virtue.

Regards
DL
 
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Religion and Philosophy / Re: Was Adam supposed to sin in God's great plan?
« Last post by Gnostic Christian on September 15, 2021, 04:31:49 pm »
Probably?

If one assumes, as specified in the question, that there is such a thing as God's great plan, and one grants that God is omnipotent omniscient etc. then there's basically two options for anything. Either a) it was meant to happen as it did, or b) the plan had no opinion on the matter. There is no c option of the plan being that something else happens, because if omnipotence means anything it means that things go the way you want them to.

So we're left with the possibility that God wanted Adam to sin, or God didn't care if Adam sinned. Except, the story goes, Adam sinning changed everything, threw people out of paradise, created agriculture, etc. It seems kind of odd to declare that God had a great plan and it was completely indifferent to these things happening or not.

So yes, assuming there is such a thing as the great plan and that God works as claimed and that the consequences of eating the fruit of the tree were as described, probably Adam was supposed to sin. Feel free to write your own bible fanfic challenging those assumptions, though.

Not at all.

I agree that sin is necessary to the Christian god.

It is also necessary to our real evolution.

I just do not think using Jesus as savior and remedy for something good is moral.

Do you think A & E took us out of heaven to hell or hell to heaven? So to speak, as neither of those are real.

Would life without knowledge be worth living?

Regards
DL


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