Author Topic: Good Things People Say on the Internet  (Read 111536 times)

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Offline Askold

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #225 on: January 12, 2016, 04:56:25 pm »
Is...were you going somewhere with that, UP?

I can't follow your egregious breaks with logic.

Funny, that's how I feel when I read your posts.
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Offline davedan

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #226 on: January 12, 2016, 05:04:19 pm »
Either way, God is a total prick.

Nah, a total prick would have let Isaac die.

Incidentally, I heard an interesting interpretation that Abraham was testing God at the same time, to see if He was worthy of worship.

There is a line of bible scholarship which suggests that in the earliest iterations of the story Abraham did kill Isaac and god let it happen and was happy. Jacob/Israel and Esau was a separate story. It was grafted on when it was decided that the child sacrifice was not cool. On the same note I've always thought Moses brother Aaron was sacrificed, I mean he goes up to the mountain and doesn't come back.

I have however never heard the theology that Abraham was testing God. There are perhaps a few matters wrong with such an interpretation. It must assume that Abraham never had any intention to kill Isaac. An omniscient God would know this. This God would know that Abraham wasn't sincere. So it just becomes an elaborate BDSM game where two adults torture a child into believing they are going to kill him.  Also the story is based on the premise that God (or an angel whatever) stays Abraham's hand as he is about to strike. This assumes that Abraham was willing to bet his own son that God wasn't a dick, when the only indication he had was that God was indeed a motherfucker who wanted him to kill his son. Moreover it assumes that Abraham is more than willing to permanently traumatise his son for this test. I think they both still come out of it looking like psychopathic arseholes.

I'm willing to hear theories as to why the 'binding of Isaac' doesn't paint God and Abraham in a terrible light but I remain skeptical that any such argument is capable of being advanced.


Offline ironbite

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #227 on: January 12, 2016, 05:59:44 pm »
Is...were you going somewhere with that, UP?

I can't follow your egregious breaks with logic.

Really?  REALLY?  You're gonna be the one who calls UP out on this?  Really?

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #228 on: January 12, 2016, 07:55:28 pm »
I am very curious about UPs implication that Ironchew has been taking cues from Karl Marx.

Do tell UP.  :D

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #229 on: January 12, 2016, 08:19:01 pm »
I also heard a theory that Abraham knew full well he wouldn't have to sacrifice his son.  After all, God told him that his line would continue through Isaac.  Furthermore, he told his servants that they would both come back.

So it just becomes an elaborate BDSM game where two adults torture a child into believing they are going to kill him.

Fun fact: the Talmud teaches that Isaac was 37 at the time of his binding.

Offline davedan

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #230 on: January 12, 2016, 08:41:09 pm »
So are you Jewish now?

"When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son."

The bible says he was about to slay his son. Not pretends to. - It does not refer to the point where Abraham lets Isaac in on the fact that God doesn't intend him to be sacrificed. I don't think it matters much to Isaac whether he was 13 or 37. Besides the basis for the argument that Abraham knew he wouldn't have to sacrifice Isaac was because he was the child of promise, that his line would continue through Isaac. If he was 37 he probably already had kids and the promise was fulfilled.

Isn't it more likely that Abraham told his servants we will be back and left them at the bottom of the mountain because he knew even his servants would consider his act and abomination and stop him.

Rather than theories that you've heard about, UP what would you do if God called you to the sacrifice of Abraham?

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #231 on: January 12, 2016, 09:12:54 pm »
So are you Jewish now?

No, I was just mentioning a theory that I'd heard.

"When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son."

The bible says he was about to slay his son. Not pretends to. - It does not refer to the point where Abraham lets Isaac in on the fact that God doesn't intend him to be sacrificed.

The Bible also doesn't mention Abraham's reaction to the command.

I don't think it matters much to Isaac whether he was 13 or 37. Besides the basis for the argument that Abraham knew he wouldn't have to sacrifice Isaac was because he was the child of promise, that his line would continue through Isaac. If he was 37 he probably already had kids and the promise was fulfilled.

Except Isaac was apparently a late bloomer, because he didn't get married until he turned 40.  And before you ask, there's no mention of him having children by anybody other than his wife.

Isn't it more likely that Abraham told his servants we will be back and left them at the bottom of the mountain because he knew even his servants would consider his act and abomination and stop him.

Point made.

Rather than theories that you've heard about, UP what would you do if God called you to the sacrifice of Abraham?

Moot question.  He wouldn't, because the final sacrifice has already been made.

Offline LeTipex

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #232 on: January 12, 2016, 09:19:16 pm »
Moot question.  He wouldn't, because the final sacrifice has already been made.
Which is why the question was framed as an hypothetical : note the "would" used in the sentence. We're not asking you what you will do when asked to sacrifice your son by the big G, but what you would do.

Your attempt to dodge the question is worrying, to say the least.  :P

Offline davedan

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #233 on: January 12, 2016, 09:55:00 pm »
So it's a theory you have heard? Is it one you subscribe too?

It does record his reaction though. The next day he loaded up his donkey with enough wood for the burnt offering. His reaction is to set about to go to the Mountain and kill the kid.

As I said I don't think his age matters for the trauma but given how wildly inaccurately ages are recorded in the old testament and life expectancy in the region at the time I would have thought it more likely that he was in fact a child. Further he is referred to as a 'boy'.  Generally it fits far better with the story that he was in fact an adolescent. Not that it matters much as either way it would have been terrifying for him. Together with an enormous betrayal of trust. As for the wife point it -doesn't matter if there were bastards as I imagine it would have only been a fulfillment of the promise if they were legitimate but the fact that they aren't mentioned is hardly conclusive, see for example the wives of cain and abel.

Finally as the Pen noted it is a hypothetical, to which I would like to hear your answer.


Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #234 on: January 12, 2016, 10:26:42 pm »
Moot question.  He wouldn't, because the final sacrifice has already been made.
Which is why the question was framed as an hypothetical : note the "would" used in the sentence. We're not asking you what you will do when asked to sacrifice your son by the big G, but what you would do.

Your attempt to dodge the question is worrying, to say the least.  :P

...I have to admit I can't answer that.

Offline davedan

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #235 on: January 12, 2016, 10:34:46 pm »
Moot question.  He wouldn't, because the final sacrifice has already been made.
Which is why the question was framed as an hypothetical : note the "would" used in the sentence. We're not asking you what you will do when asked to sacrifice your son by the big G, but what you would do.

Your attempt to dodge the question is worrying, to say the least.  :P

...I have to admit I can't answer that.

Do you have kids? Can you honestly not answer with what you would do if God told you to kill your first child?

Edit: To the extent that the original story was that Abraham actually sacrificed Isaac - here is a link http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2011/04/when-abraham-killed-isaac/
« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 01:26:11 am by davedan »

Offline mellenORL

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #236 on: January 13, 2016, 10:02:48 am »
Just as an aside, aren't there some biblical scholars who point out that when ages given in the bible seem odd, such as Methuselah's age, it's likely to be a transliteration error, since early nomadic peoples like the ancient Hebrews more commonly used lunar age, as in months, to describe time passage, rather than annual markers? If that is the case for the story of Isaac, he would have been a three year old. Which makes the story a lot more angst-y.
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #237 on: January 13, 2016, 10:53:38 am »
Dave, how exactly do you expect me to answer that question?  It may seem trivial to you (and I can't blame you for that, nor should I), but to me, it's really, really big.

Just as an aside, aren't there some biblical scholars who point out that when ages given in the bible seem odd, such as Methuselah's age, it's likely to be a transliteration error, since early nomadic peoples like the ancient Hebrews more commonly used lunar age, as in months, to describe time passage, rather than annual markers? If that is the case for the story of Isaac, he would have been a three year old. Which makes the story a lot more angst-y.

And he would have gotten married when he was four.

Offline mellenORL

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #238 on: January 13, 2016, 01:54:17 pm »
Well, marriage arrangements between families in such societies can be made at birth onwards, and marriage rites (though the kids would be living under parental care) occasionally happened at tot age, too. In any case, it does make more sense that Isaac was at least a teen, and I think ancient legends and parables do indeed suffer from translation and re-recording errors over the millennia to a huge degree.
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Offline TheContrarian

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #239 on: January 13, 2016, 06:18:35 pm »
If God came to me and demanded I kill my son i'd tell him to fuck off back to tumblr.



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