Author Topic: Democratic Primaries Thread  (Read 30721 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline niam2023

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 4213
  • Gender: Male
  • The Forum Chad
Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #105 on: March 18, 2020, 04:03:06 am »
Seemed pretty damn paradisical from where I was standing. Enough I understand a Biden vote purely as wanting to return to the Obama years.
Living Life, Lifting, Waiting for Summer

Offline dpareja

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 5680
Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #106 on: March 18, 2020, 10:19:08 am »
Seemed pretty damn paradisical from where I was standing. Enough I understand a Biden vote purely as wanting to return to the Obama years.

Oh, I agree that the chance of Sanders getting almost any part of his agenda through Congress would have been very small.

But for some people, the difference between "very small" and "zero" is a deal-breaker.

And as I heard it put, in four years' time (or maybe eight), people who oppose both Sanders and Trump are going to long for the days of "my good friend Joe Biden" and "I assume some are good people"--assuming that Millennials don't check out entirely and that Generation Z gets involved.

EDIT: Keep in mind that what the exit polling makes clear is that the starkest divide in the Democratic Party this year is a generational one: Millennials and Generation X (45 and under, even 55 in some states) overwhelmingly favour Sanders, while the Boomers and the Silent Generation overwhelmingly (though not quite as overwhelmingly, made up for by the larger numbers in which they vote) favour Biden. Chalk that up to whatever you like--policy, personality, cultish behaviour, whatever--but it's generating a lot of resentment that the older generations, who have Medicare and won't have to deal with the worst effects of climate change, are stomping on the proverbial face of the candidate with the most comprehensive plans to address those issues.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 11:50:04 am by dpareja »
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Cloud3514

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1776
  • 404: Personal text not found.
Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #107 on: March 18, 2020, 01:53:54 pm »
The problem with Bernie Bros refusing to support the Democrats if they can't have 78 year old Jesus is that it's incredibly short sighted and reductionist.

Let's be fucking honest: Both Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders are TERRIBLE candidates. But that's the hand we've been dealt for the Presidency. And the smart thing to do is to choose the option that's going to do the least amount of damage while focusing the places where change can actually happen: Congress. While I'm hoping Sanders can come out on top, despite what the Bernie Bros keep saying based on out of context statements, I don't believe for a second Biden would veto Medicare for All without good reason. But it will be impossible to test that if Mitch McConnell keeps his hands on the Senate. Biden also won't stack the courts with far-right ideologues.

There's WAY more at stake than the White House. In fact, I could entertain an argument that Congress is MORE important. To pretend that Congress and the Judiciary are non-factors in 2020, as a certain candidate's supporters seem to, is utter idiocy.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 03:42:57 pm by Cloud3514 »
Who needs a signature?

Offline dpareja

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 5680
Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #108 on: March 18, 2020, 04:27:52 pm »
On the other hand, what some of those on the left of the Democratic Party are now thinking is that the reason they wield very little power is because they haven't credibly threatened to destroy the Democratic Party. Those further to the right (see: Joe Manchin openly talking about maybe switching parties; see also, Jeff Van Drew actually switching parties) wield power because the Democratic Party would be devastated if they switched to the Republican Party.

So what at least some on the left are now saying is, if we don't credibly threaten to sink the Democratic Party in this election by sitting it out--and follow through if necessary--we won't be taken seriously going forward.

I agree that Congress is at least as important (but then, Bush, Obama and Trump have all pushed the "unitary executive" theory where the executive gets to do whatever it wants unless Congress explicitly says no, and even then the President can veto it anyway) but the Presidency is the flashpoint race. It gets the attention, it drives turnout for downballot races.

I disagree with this, to be clear; Justice Ginsburg's age would be enough to make me go vote for Biden were I eligible (as it is, I'm just an outside observer who is nonetheless significantly affected by US policy). But I can understand where others are coming from on the point.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Vanto

  • Bishop
  • ***
  • Posts: 226
Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #109 on: March 18, 2020, 06:04:44 pm »
Like dpareja, I don't entirely agree with this "only the presidential race matters" rhetoric, but I do see where it's coming from. The executive branch has had a lot of power to act unilaterally since the Dubya administration.
Stop the timeline, I wanna get off.

Offline Cloud3514

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1776
  • 404: Personal text not found.
Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #110 on: March 18, 2020, 07:38:48 pm »
So that means it makes sense to vote for the guy who will actively make the world worse? Who can't handle any sort of crisis? Who puts his own interests before anything else? Even if the presidency was the only thing at stake, this idea of "I can't have what I want, so I'll help the fascists win" is irresponsible, at best.

I get being disappointed that your guy lost. I'm still pissed about how Warren's campaign went, myself, but this is the hand we're dealt and we have to play with it.
Who needs a signature?

Offline dpareja

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 5680
Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #111 on: March 18, 2020, 08:11:58 pm »
So that means it makes sense to vote for the guy who will actively make the world worse? Who can't handle any sort of crisis? Who puts his own interests before anything else? Even if the presidency was the only thing at stake, this idea of "I can't have what I want, so I'll help the fascists win" is irresponsible, at best.

I get being disappointed that your guy lost. I'm still pissed about how Warren's campaign went, myself, but this is the hand we're dealt and we have to play with it.

As I said, what I imagine quite a few people on the left will do is sit the election out. Not "vote for Trump because fuck Biden but the Democratic downballot candidates are good people" (at best in the "they vote for Trump" situation). Most of them will admit Trump is a horrible human being who isn't qualified to run a convenience store. Sit it out.

Keep in mind that sitting it out (or voting third-party) has, in an effective two-candidate race, only half the effect that voting for the other candidate does. If there are seven votes and normally Party A gets 5 and Party B gets 2 (a majority of three), then if two Party A supporters sit it out or vote third-party, Party A still wins 3-2 (a majority of one; hence a reduction of two). But if they switch, Party B wins 4-3 (a majority of one for the other party; hence a reduction of four).
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Cloud3514

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1776
  • 404: Personal text not found.
Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #112 on: March 18, 2020, 08:44:58 pm »
Yeah, I think I kind of mixed messages in that last post. I meant to say that sitting out or voting third party is irresponsible and helps the Republicans win. Voting for Trump is actively harmful and is obviously worse than sitting out (which voting third party may as well be).
Who needs a signature?

Offline dpareja

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 5680
Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #113 on: March 18, 2020, 11:49:03 pm »
Here's a bit of what may be good news: Dan Lipinski, the anti-choice, anti-LGBT rights, anti-ACA Representative for the D+6 Illinois 3rd, lost his primary to challenger Marie Newman by about 2,500 votes (of around 100,000) in a rematch of his 2018 primary fight.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline DarkPhoenix

  • Bishop
  • ***
  • Posts: 235
Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #114 on: March 19, 2020, 04:10:15 am »
Keep in mind that what the exit polling makes clear is that the starkest divide in the Democratic Party this year is a generational one: Millennials and Generation X (45 and under, even 55 in some states) overwhelmingly favour Sanders, while the Boomers and the Silent Generation overwhelmingly (though not quite as overwhelmingly, made up for by the larger numbers in which they vote) favour Biden. Chalk that up to whatever you like--policy, personality, cultish behaviour, whatever--but it's generating a lot of resentment that the older generations, who have Medicare and won't have to deal with the worst effects of climate change, are stomping on the proverbial face of the candidate with the most comprehensive plans to address those issues.

Every poll I've seen shows that the only group that went heavily for Sanders is Millenials; Gen-X went for Joe Biden as well.  And Millenials also had the LEAST representation among voters.

In fact, Joe's comeback was fueled by otherwise non-voting Gen-X'ers appearing at the polls to vote for him...

Offline ironbite

  • Overlord of all that is good in Iacon City
  • Kakarot
  • ******
  • Posts: 10686
  • Gender: Male
  • Stuck in the middle with you.
Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #115 on: March 19, 2020, 08:23:40 am »
Seriously.  Biden has somehow energized a base of non-voters and gotten them to vote for him.  That's no mean feat.  If he adopts certain plans and policies as planks for November, well polls do show him beating Trump.

Ironbite-honestly I think Trump's response to this current pandemic has pretty much sunk his reelection chances.

Offline dpareja

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 5680
Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #116 on: March 19, 2020, 10:20:53 am »
Keep in mind that what the exit polling makes clear is that the starkest divide in the Democratic Party this year is a generational one: Millennials and Generation X (45 and under, even 55 in some states) overwhelmingly favour Sanders, while the Boomers and the Silent Generation overwhelmingly (though not quite as overwhelmingly, made up for by the larger numbers in which they vote) favour Biden. Chalk that up to whatever you like--policy, personality, cultish behaviour, whatever--but it's generating a lot of resentment that the older generations, who have Medicare and won't have to deal with the worst effects of climate change, are stomping on the proverbial face of the candidate with the most comprehensive plans to address those issues.

Every poll I've seen shows that the only group that went heavily for Sanders is Millenials; Gen-X went for Joe Biden as well.  And Millenials also had the LEAST representation among voters.

In fact, Joe's comeback was fueled by otherwise non-voting Gen-X'ers appearing at the polls to vote for him...

Maybe it depends on the state. I've seen some exit polling in which Sanders was doing well with more than just Millennials.

That Millennials have the lowest turnout of the various age brackets is a major handicap for a campaign largely aimed at energizing that generation, of course.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Skybison

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1289
Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #117 on: March 21, 2020, 01:07:27 am »
I had a nightmare last night that Trump used that pandemic as an excuse to cancel the election.

Offline Id82

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1204
Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #118 on: March 21, 2020, 08:46:26 am »
He doesn't have that kind of authority. That decision would have to go through Congress first. Thankfully he doesn't have control of the house.
G.O.P
a  b r
s  s o
l   t   j
i   r  e
g  u c
h  c  t
t   t

Offline dpareja

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 5680
Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #119 on: March 21, 2020, 02:44:25 pm »
Has Congress specifically denied the President that authority? Under the theory of the executive advanced by the last few administrations, that's what would be required.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.