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Rubbish => Preaching and Worship => Topic started by: JohnE on June 06, 2013, 05:32:20 pm

Title: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: JohnE on June 06, 2013, 05:32:20 pm
If you're an atheist or agnostic, what would it take to convince you of the existence of god in general, and/or Christianity in particular? And for Christians, what would it take to convince you that god doesn't exist and/or that Christianity isn't true?

Here's a few things that might convince me of god/Christianity. And one thing might not be enough, but they would certainly make me rethink my worldview.

Personal religious experience
I could never be 100% sure that it wasn't just my brain playing tricks on me, but a powerful enough religious experience might convert me. (Other people's experiences do nothing for me, though)

The power of prayer
If prayer could be shown to have a statistically significant effect on things that could not be attributed to the placebo effect, I'd be convinced that something was going on, though not necessarily that Christianity was true (unless it only worked with Christian prayers).

Miracles
Stories about miracles, especially from ancient sources, don't convince me, but if a few unambiguous miracles were captured on tape and witnessed and corroborated by many people independently, that might be enough. Or if I witnessed something and other witnesses verified it.

... That's all I can think of off the top of my head. I may add more things later.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Sleepy on June 06, 2013, 06:01:06 pm
I would have to see the god, and it would have to perform a crapload of godly things in front of me, like transforming my couch into an ocelot. And loads of other people would have to see it so I can ensure I'm not hallucinating. I see no reason to believe, otherwise.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Søren on June 06, 2013, 06:03:40 pm
I have an irky feeling that i would just crack one day and convert just to avoid the possibility of going to hell
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Cerim Treascair on June 06, 2013, 06:05:10 pm
in my case... it's not exactly a matter of Pascal's Wager.  More 'what have I got to lose?'
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Shane for Wax on June 06, 2013, 06:08:05 pm
For me, I believe that if there is a god, or (as many have seen me say) a goddess, I think that they would take into account my attempts to be a good person. To do good by my kin, legal or not. Many people here are my kin and I have tried multiple times to aid them where I can. I think those acts, acts that I might never see myself get repaid for but I do out of love, would allow a god or goddess to look kindly upon me.

If they aren't a total dick like the Christian God can show himself to be and nothing I do could be right by him.

TL;DR- I wouldn't convert to Christianity of any stripe. I would be Tony Stark in the presence of Thor.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Morgenleoht on June 06, 2013, 06:11:38 pm
TL;DR- I wouldn't convert to Christianity of any stripe. I would be Tony Stark in the presence of Thor.

Cracking snarky jokes about his speech, cloak and looks?
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Sigmaleph on June 06, 2013, 06:35:08 pm
[I realise this post is long. If you want to read one paragraph only, choose the one with the bolded sentence]


What would convince me of the God of Christianity in particular? Evidence that I've been hallucinating every time I've had anyone describe how the Christian God is supposed to be.

Allow me to elaborate. While there's many, many things that don't line up with the Christian God hypothesis, I will use the argument from evil for the purposes of this post.

We are to assume an omnipotent entity which is supposed to be benevolent. There is no possible way that such a thing is even barely compatible with the universe we observe. For one thing, people die, all the time, for the stupidest of reasons, after living lives that may or may not be filled with suffering. Even if you buy the "free will" argument* that God cannot make all people be nice, the universe is simply not optimised for being good by any reasonable standard, for reasons that have fuck-all to do with human behaviour. Most of it is empty of intelligent life, for starters. If you could make the universe be any way you like, would you only put people in one particular place, unable to see almost all of it, guaranteed to die after a relatively minuscule amount of time? Why? Put us in every planet. Make us immortal, or able to live for as long as we desire until we get tired of it. Get rid of lightspeed limit, so we can reasonably see a bigger portion of the world. At the very least, don't add flesh-eating bacteria to the world, because what the fuck does that accomplish? I'm not saying I know the formula for maximising the goodness of human life, but sure as hell it doesn't look like this.

So between the choice that the universe is completely different to what I observe in basically every major way, and that I've simply managed to misunderstand every time I heard that God is omnipotent and he loves us, the latter is the least improbable one. Any universe where the God of Christianity exists as I think he's supposed to requires hypotheses on the Cartesian Demon level.


Any god in general is trickier question, not in the least because it's not a well-defined term. For the purposes of this, let's just say that a god is a being (with a mind, so as not to argue whether "the universe itself" counts as a being) that can perform straight-up miracles. Change the stars in the sky, manipulate time at will, that sorta thing. Let's ignore how they do this, so they could be an alien race that exploits technology we don't have or a Matrix Lord or a supernatural transcendent spirit that created the universe.

In that case, the most likely evidence that'd convince me would be them regularly using their miraculous power to accomplish their goals. If you change the midday sky to green with red spots once, then it's far more likely that I'm on drugs than that you are a god. If you do it every day to send messages to a friend in Mars, that's more interesting. If you teleport me to the moon for a few seconds to impress me, I don't know if you just have a very convincing holographic projector. If you can move the entire civilization across the galaxy because the sun is about to blow up, you're probably a god.

There are probably other things that would convince me, but the bottom line is that godhood should not be an evasive, immaterial thing that might as well not be there. A sentient being with god-level powers should have obviously visible consequences. If not, any clever excuse as to why we never notice their displays of godliness is by far more likely to be humans generating rationalizations than actual gods.

It's not impossible that there is a very good reason why some being that can reassemble the world at will, doesn't do so. Finding such a reason would greatly relax the standards of evidence, but would also mean by its very nature I'm unlikely to get that evidence. I don't know how an argument that proves that I shouldn't expect to see any displays of godly power (or see them but don't realise it), and yet allows that I will see evidence, would be like. Perhaps a personal meeting with a god-creature who wants me in particular to believe it is there but doesn't want anyone else to?



*I don't, but a universe where I realise my objections against it are invalid is the least unlikely hypothetical in this scenario.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Rime on June 06, 2013, 08:01:31 pm
Two things, and I'm not just talking Christian, but this can also refer to Islam, Hinduism, Wicca, etc...

1 Some truly obvious sign that there are supernatural machinations and not just the assertions of everyone who is convinced that it's interfering with this universe.  Not that I have a problem with someone believing in supernatural beings and their interactions with this reality, but at the present, the supernatural seems to be another crowbar in the toolbox of the would-be evangelist, desperate to have me join him in his beliefs.

2 Being able to separate the evangelist's message from his personal desire to have me convert in a manner that pleases him.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: BigChrisfilm on June 06, 2013, 08:43:37 pm
I think that if we are all honest with ourselves we would say we aren't sure. I truly don't believe there is anything. Im so convinced that it's true, even if I saw someone claiming to be Jesus doing miracles I'd question what he was saying if it were against what I knew to be true. If there is one thing that could do it, it's be if God could be 100%, without a doubt proven to not exist.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Sigmaleph on June 06, 2013, 09:09:42 pm
Quote
If there is one thing that could do it, it's be if God could be 100%, without a doubt proven to not exist.
Can you be more specific? What would something that proves God doesn't exist (as far as you are concerned) look like?
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Sleepy on June 06, 2013, 09:12:57 pm
I don't know how you prove such a thing. Do you have to swear that you've searched every inch of the earth? Search outer space? (Which is obviously limited.) It just doesn't work.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: BigChrisfilm on June 06, 2013, 09:51:39 pm
I don't know how you prove such a thing. Do you have to swear that you've searched every inch of the earth? Search outer space? (Which is obviously limited.) It just doesn't work.
I don't know how either, that's why I was saying I honestly don't think there is anyway to do so.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Sigmaleph on June 06, 2013, 10:15:26 pm
Does your belief in God have really no consequences whatsoever? Is there nothing that you would expect to see or not see in a universe where God is real, as opposed to one where he's not?

If there is, then that implies the possibility of seeing something you wouldn't expect to see if God was real, thus evidence against. If not, well, can you really say you believe in any meaningful way?
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: BigChrisfilm on June 06, 2013, 10:38:42 pm
Does your belief in God have really no consequences whatsoever? Is there nothing that you would expect to see or not see in a universe where God is real, as opposed to one where he's not?

If there is, then that implies the possibility of seeing something you wouldn't expect to see if God was real, thus evidence against. If not, well, can you really say you believe in any meaningful way?

I think I know what you're trying to say. The reason that doesn't work for me is that I believe in an explanation for why there is bad on the world. So the fact there is bad in the world doesn't disprove God for me.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: R. U. Sirius on June 06, 2013, 10:49:28 pm
That wasn't the question, Chris.

The question was, "is there anything you wouldn't expect to see in a universe where God existed?" Anything at all, not just the existence of evil or pain.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: BigChrisfilm on June 06, 2013, 11:05:26 pm
That wasn't the question, Chris.

The question was, "is there anything you wouldn't expect to see in a universe where God existed?" Anything at all, not just the existence of evil or pain.
I would say that just like any other artist, I would expect to see parts of him in his creation.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: JohnE on June 06, 2013, 11:08:16 pm
Let me try to ask it another way: Imagine a universe in which god doesn't exist. In what observable ways is it different from a universe in which god does exist?
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: BigChrisfilm on June 06, 2013, 11:25:59 pm
Let me try to ask it another way: Imagine a universe in which god doesn't exist. In what observable ways is it different from a universe in which god does exist?
For me it is hard to imagine a world where God exists because all I've ever observed is one where he does. I have nothing to really base it on. I'm sure I'm frustrating you guys I just simply don't know how to answer the questions. It's such a complicated issue. I'm going to give it my best shot though.

To me a universe without God would be in utter chaos because there would be no one molding and shaping it. We would not exist, at least not in the complicated way we do now. I think everything would at least be simple minded and dull. There would be no structure, there would be no laws.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: JohnE on June 06, 2013, 11:41:13 pm
You're not frustrating me, just confirming my expectations.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: BigChrisfilm on June 06, 2013, 11:50:58 pm
You're not frustrating me, just confirming my expectations.
what were your expectations, if you don't mind me asking?
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: JohnE on June 07, 2013, 12:03:47 am
That you would be closed minded to even the possibility that you could be wrong, as I find is the case for most fundamentalist Christians.

But then again, I could still be wrong. What if there IS a god, but not the god of Christianity (like a deistic god, for example)? Would there be any evidence that could convince you that Christianity is incorrect (or at least make you seriously question it)?
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Her3tiK on June 07, 2013, 12:05:38 am
Nothing. Should the god of the bible prove to be irrefutably true, then the bastard has to much pain and suffering to answer for that I would never convert. I would declare my allegiance to Lucifer without a second thought; even his (inaccurate) biblical portrayal paints a better picture of him than it does YHWH.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: BigChrisfilm on June 07, 2013, 12:14:33 am
That you would be closed minded to even the possibility that you could be wrong, as I find is the case for most fundamentalist Christians.

But then again, I could still be wrong. What if there IS a god, but not the god of Christianity (like a deistic god, for example)? Would there be any evidence that could convince you that Christianity is incorrect (or at least make you seriously question it)?
Would you be open minded enough to possibility that your computer was not made by anyone, but rather just came into existence?

Also I'd more willing to to believe another god exists than I would to believe that none exists. I guess that's why I could never be an atheist.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: JohnE on June 07, 2013, 12:32:22 am
Would you be open minded enough to possibility that your computer was not made by anyone, but rather just came into existence?
Yes. If the natural laws describing how such a thing could happen could be described by science, I'd believe that. On the contrary, I have evidence that it was made by people.

On the other hand, when I come across a rock, a tree, or a river, I don't assume that someone built them intentionally. I assume they came about through natural processes.

Quote
Also I'd more willing to to believe another god exists than I would to believe that none exists. I guess that's why I could never be an atheist.
Ok. Then what evidence might make you reconsider the truth of Christianity?
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Lithp on June 07, 2013, 12:41:29 am
This question first requires a workable, testable definition of "God" & "Christianity." That is my answer.

Quote
Would you be open minded enough to possibility that your computer was not made by anyone, but rather just came into existence?

If I took it to the manufacturer & they said that it wasn't one of theirs, I might have to seriously consider this possibility.

But, as John said, the difference is that the process of making a computer is well understood, & there are all manner of things that trace back to the manufacturers--technical support lines, logos, etc. And other things that just indicate that it was made by humans in general, such as the keys being in human languages, or the fairly universal on/off symbol, or even the fact that the screen projects in the visible spectrum.

A tree grows from other trees. Any "original tree" is long since dead. Since no tree alive today was directly created by some other being, why should we assume that this was ever the case, unless we can locate the designer, or some record of it, & verify its claims independently?
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: BigChrisfilm on June 07, 2013, 12:46:35 am
Would you be open minded enough to possibility that your computer was not made by anyone, but rather just came into existence?
Yes. If the natural laws describing how such a thing could happen could be described by science, I'd believe that. On the contrary, I have evidence that it was made by people.

On the other hand, when I come across a rock, a tree, or a river, I don't assume that someone built them intentionally. I assume they came about through natural processes.

Quote
Also I'd more willing to to believe another god exists than I would to believe that none exists. I guess that's why I could never be an atheist.
Ok. Then what evidence might make you reconsider the truth of Christianity?
You don't truly actually have evidence though. You haven't actually been to seen him. You are just assuming he/she is real because of things you've seen and experienced in the past. I could also go see God, it's just a different way of going about it. You may say well what if God isn't actually there? I know the guy who made the computer is but you don't. Which I reply with no you don't, you're assuming that guy exists. If the computer just came into being he doesn't exist. The only way to prove he exists is to go find him. Same with us, the only real way to prove God is to see him. You're making an educated guess that someone made your computer. That's all I'm doing is making an educated guess that someone made all this stuff. That's why I give the example, it seems just as logical for me as it is for you.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: BigChrisfilm on June 07, 2013, 12:52:25 am
This question first requires a workable, testable definition of "God" & "Christianity." That is my answer.

Quote
Would you be open minded enough to possibility that your computer was not made by anyone, but rather just came into existence?

If I took it to the manufacturer & they said that it wasn't one of theirs, I might have to seriously consider this possibility.

But, as John said, the difference is that the process of making a computer is well understood, & there are all manner of things that trace back to the manufacturers--technical support lines, logos, etc. And other things that just indicate that it was made by humans in general, such as the keys being in human languages, or the fairly universal on/off symbol, or even the fact that the screen projects in the visible spectrum.

A tree grows from other trees. Any "original tree" is long since dead. Since no tree alive today was directly created by some other being, why should we assume that this was ever the case, unless we can locate the designer, or some record of it, & verify its claims independently?
I agree with your description of the keys being in a human language being proof a human made it. What I don't understand is why you can't follow that same logic to the conclusion that something like the human eye is less likely to have just came together on its own than a keyboard. The differences between the complicated structure of the human eye and an HP laptop are astronomical.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: BigChrisfilm on June 07, 2013, 01:04:30 am
I guess for me it's easier to believe someone made that keyboard then it is to believe it just came together. It's even more believable to me that keyboard would come together all on its own than everything else in the universe doing the same.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: JohnE on June 07, 2013, 01:16:49 am
Ok. Then what evidence might make you reconsider the truth of Christianity? (Like maybe deism is true, for example)
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Art Vandelay on June 07, 2013, 01:31:45 am
That you would be closed minded to even the possibility that you could be wrong, as I find is the case for most fundamentalist Christians.

But then again, I could still be wrong. What if there IS a god, but not the god of Christianity (like a deistic god, for example)? Would there be any evidence that could convince you that Christianity is incorrect (or at least make you seriously question it)?
Would you be open minded enough to possibility that your computer was not made by anyone, but rather just came into existence?

Also I'd more willing to to believe another god exists than I would to believe that none exists. I guess that's why I could never be an atheist.

If everything has to be made by something else, then what made God?
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Lithp on June 07, 2013, 01:39:50 am
Quote
You don't truly actually have evidence though. You haven't actually been to seen him. You are just assuming he/she is real because of things you've seen and experienced in the past.

There is a difference between knowing the exact individual who made it, & knowing that it is a human production. Hence why I don't claim to know who personally built the computer--also because it was likely multiple people. With the universe, there is nothing I can point to that indicates what kind of person may have created it, if there was more than one, or if that thing was a "person" in any sense of the word.

There are, however, explanations for its existence that seem to not necessitate a creator, so I tentatively say that it did not have one.

Quote
I could also go see God, it's just a different way of going about it.

An important difference, I would say. Any way of allegedly contacting God (such as prayer) does not work for any other person or object in existence, so why should it work in this case? Especially because studies do not find a significant difference between prayer & the placebo effect. Also, how does this explain people who deconvert & then say, "You know, looking back, I get the impression that God was never really there, or if he was, he wasn't listening"?

Quote
What I don't understand is why you can't follow that same logic to the conclusion that something like the human eye is less likely to have just came together on its own than a keyboard.

Because that is not the same logic. With the keyboard, I have an object I am examining (keys), & attempting to determine if they are of natural OR man-made origin.

I ALSO have an item that I KNOW is of man-made origin (the alphabet).

Since the keys include the alphabet, in fact the FULL alphabet, with punctuation, I can conclude with nearly 100% certainty that this is a man-made item. The uncertainty continues to diminish dramatically when I combine this with the other evidence.

With the eyeball, if I try to determine whether it is natural or designed, all I've got is that it is made of human cells. There isn't really any kind of symbol or trait I can point to that says, "This is a thing that I already know this dude named God makes, therefore, this was designed by him." It's not about being "complicated," it's about what I already know from other experiences.

Good examples of something being "complicated" but not designed--the Rorschach ink blot tests. Those can result in some pretty complex patterns, but are really just randomly deposited blots of ink. Also, ice crystals. What appear to have intricate patterns are really just the way that the water randomly froze.

Quote
The differences between the complicated structure of the human eye and an HP laptop are astronomical.

Why, yes, they are.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: davedan on June 07, 2013, 02:17:01 am
That you would be closed minded to even the possibility that you could be wrong, as I find is the case for most fundamentalist Christians.

But then again, I could still be wrong. What if there IS a god, but not the god of Christianity (like a deistic god, for example)? Would there be any evidence that could convince you that Christianity is incorrect (or at least make you seriously question it)?
Would you be open minded enough to possibility that your computer was not made by anyone, but rather just came into existence?

Also I'd more willing to to believe another god exists than I would to believe that none exists. I guess that's why I could never be an atheist.

If everything has to be made by something else, then what made God?

After all god that made the universe has to be astronomically more complex than the universe he created so on that logic must require a creator. And so on.

That is actually one of the reasons I find the Gnostic story of creation appealing. Essentially everything is God, but God is sick, which is why it has started to break apart, the biggest split being the Demiurge who created this material universe. One day God will heal itself and it everything will dissappear into transcendentalism.

Utter shit but at least, interesting shit.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Captain Jack Harkness on June 07, 2013, 03:23:40 am
Miracles
Stories about miracles, especially from ancient sources, don't convince me, but if a few unambiguous miracles were captured on tape and witnessed and corroborated by many people independently, that might be enough. Or if I witnessed something and other witnesses verified it.

So what counts as an "unambiguous miracle," anyway?  What would count as a "miracle," and how do you know you wouldn't look for another explanation?
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: JohnE on June 07, 2013, 03:29:15 am
I'm not exactly sure what would count, but it would have to be something I was pretty darn sure couldn't be faked. The sun standing still in the sky for three days and then continuing as normal would be a good one. Whatever it was, I would definitely look for other explanations before accepting it as supernatural.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Lithp on June 07, 2013, 08:16:16 am
Now that I think about it, "before accepting it as supernatural" is a strange term. There are yet things that are unknown to science, but I don't consider them magical in nature. The Bloop or the Wow Signal, for instance.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Flying Mint Bunny! on June 07, 2013, 10:15:35 am
Nothing could convince me that there is a benevolent god. I think the existence of certain genetic diseases prove that there isn't one.

I think it's possible that there is a god who is completely indifferent towards humans, and thinks of us in the same way we think of ants.

Any miracles could have non supernatural causes like aliens with vastly superior technology.

Epileptic people can have religious experiences caused by seizures, so I would probably put anything like that down to having some kind of problem with my brain.

The power of prayer doesn't work, so that's out.

I don't think anything could convince me really.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Shane for Wax on June 07, 2013, 01:27:58 pm
TL;DR- I wouldn't convert to Christianity of any stripe. I would be Tony Stark in the presence of Thor.

Cracking snarky jokes about his speech, cloak and looks?

But of course. *late reply*
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: JohnE on June 07, 2013, 02:32:04 pm
Now that I think about it, "before accepting it as supernatural" is a strange term. There are yet things that are unknown to science, but I don't consider them magical in nature. The Bloop or the Wow Signal, for instance.
Yeah, supernatural wasn't the best word, but I'm not sure what the best word would be.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Sigmaleph on June 07, 2013, 03:54:17 pm
To me a universe without God would be in utter chaos because there would be no one molding and shaping it. We would not exist, at least not in the complicated way we do now. I think everything would at least be simple minded and dull. There would be no structure, there would be no laws.

This is the sort of thing I was getting at, actually.

Suppose, then, that you found a convincing philosophical argument that the lawfulness of nature can be accounted for without God. Would that give you serious doubts about theism, or at the very least, make you more open to other ideas?


(I'm not implying I have such an argument, it's a hypothetical question)
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Star Cluster on June 07, 2013, 05:04:48 pm
To me a universe without God would be in utter chaos because there would be no one molding and shaping it. We would not exist, at least not in the complicated way we do now. I think everything would at least be simple minded and dull. There would be no structure, there would be no laws.

This is the sort of thing I was getting at, actually.

Suppose, then, that you found a convincing philosophical argument that the lawfulness of nature can be accounted for without God. Would that give you serious doubts about theism, or at the very least, make you more open to other ideas?


(I'm not implying I have such an argument, it's a hypothetical question)

As I've said before in other threads and as I say in my sig, it is the very order and complexity of the universe that convinces me there is no god(s).  With very few exceptions, the universe works under a very strict set of criteria that we call the Laws of Physics.  What many people fail, or refuse, to understand is that the Laws of Physics are not like the laws set down by men.  Laws which men set down can be broken.  The Laws of Physics cannot (or at least we have not found a way to yet.)  They are not actually  laws, but a natural pattern that we have observed in which objects behave in certain conditions, not just once, but all the time. 

Take objects in orbit around the sun, for example.  We know that small objects, called asteroids, can by gravitational forces, clump together.  The more of them that clump together, the more gravitational force the growing object exerts.  When they are small, they can be pretty much any shape, just depending on how they strike each other, since they lack a strong gravitational field.  But if enough of them get together to gain sufficient size they when become a dwarf planet or maybe even a planet.  If this happens, the object will have enough mass to cause itself to be spherical.  We know this to be true because we can see it.  Mathematical formulas not only confirm it, but demand it.  A god is not required. 

Now if you want to get my attention and at least give me pause to the possibility of any god, show me a cubed planet.  I'll wait.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Sigmaleph on June 07, 2013, 05:59:09 pm
With very few exceptions, the universe works under a very strict set of criteria that we call the Laws of Physics.
By "exceptions", d'you mean things that the current understanding of physics doesn't yet explain, or that violate the (not fully known) True Laws of Physics?
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: QueenofHearts on June 07, 2013, 07:25:20 pm
With very few exceptions, the universe works under a very strict set of criteria that we call the Laws of Physics.
By "exceptions", d'you mean things that the current understanding of physics doesn't yet explain, or that violate the (not fully known) True Laws of Physics?

He clearly means magic. Like how does David Copperfield make that elephant disappear? I don't know!  :P
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Star Cluster on June 07, 2013, 10:25:36 pm
With very few exceptions, the universe works under a very strict set of criteria that we call the Laws of Physics.
By "exceptions", d'you mean things that the current understanding of physics doesn't yet explain, or that violate the (not fully known) True Laws of Physics?

Mainly what I had in mind were black holes where the laws of physics break down completely.  There are a few yet to be fully explained phenomena, however, there are mathematical formulas that predict something should be there and have in most cases, named them.  It's just that those particles or forces haven't been fully proven yet.  Dark matter, dark energy, and string theory are examples of this. 
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Morgenleoht on June 08, 2013, 12:05:57 am
TL;DR- I wouldn't convert to Christianity of any stripe. I would be Tony Stark in the presence of Thor.

Cracking snarky jokes about his speech, cloak and looks?

But of course. *late reply*

If it were Thor/the other Norse Gods, I'd be "Fuck yeah!"

If it were the Abrahamic God, I would be "Fuck you."
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Witchyjoshy on June 08, 2013, 02:10:47 am
Hum let's see...

What would it take me to convert to Christianity?  Brainwashing.  Because Christianity is to Judaism what Mormonism is to Christianity.

What would it take for me me to convert to Judaism?
A prophet personally sent by God of some sort coming around, bitch-slapping every fundie Christian for worshipping a book over God himself, bitch-slapping missionaries for trying to manipulate people into converting by denying food and medicine until people convert, and bitch-slapping every abrahamic leader to pay for their crimes of destroying information about other people's religions, as well as historical documents period.

What would it take for me to convert to, say, any other belief system?

A personal experience where I feel led to Woden and Thunar and that it is a non-abusive relationship, unlike the abusive relationship that fundamentalist Christians have with their so-called "loving" father.

What would it take for me to convert to a dragon worshiping religion?

...It merely existing ;D

Okay that last one was in jest.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Lithp on June 08, 2013, 02:29:37 am
Who the fuck is Quetzacoatl?
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Art Vandelay on June 08, 2013, 02:55:14 am
Who the fuck is Quetzacoatl?
Aztec deity.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Lithp on June 08, 2013, 05:28:47 am
And commonly agreed to be their equivalent of a dragon.

Sort of what I was getting at.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Art Vandelay on June 08, 2013, 07:09:32 am
My bad.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Witchyjoshy on June 08, 2013, 01:47:23 pm
I thought that's what you might've been getting at.

Well other than the fact that, as far as I know, the Aztec religion has been dead for decades (which generally doesn't stop pagans) there's mostly the fact that... well I'm just not that interested in a flying snake as a deity.

Technically, some things have been called "dragons" arbitrarily by westerners.  See the Chinese and Japanese Lungs/Longs.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Shane for Wax on June 08, 2013, 01:56:10 pm
TL;DR- I wouldn't convert to Christianity of any stripe. I would be Tony Stark in the presence of Thor.

Cracking snarky jokes about his speech, cloak and looks?

But of course. *late reply*

If it were Thor/the other Norse Gods, I'd be "Fuck yeah!"

If it were the Abrahamic God, I would be "Fuck you."

*insert tony stark gif here*

But yeah. Thor I'm fine with. 
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Morgenleoht on June 08, 2013, 03:38:00 pm
TL;DR- I wouldn't convert to Christianity of any stripe. I would be Tony Stark in the presence of Thor.

Cracking snarky jokes about his speech, cloak and looks?

But of course. *late reply*

If it were Thor/the other Norse Gods, I'd be "Fuck yeah!"

If it were the Abrahamic God, I would be "Fuck you."

*insert tony stark gif here*

But yeah. Thor I'm fine with.

At least Odin and Loki are honest about being dicks, unlike the Abrahamic God...
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: wrightway on June 08, 2013, 03:38:10 pm
I'd be cool with worshipping Coyote.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Cerim Treascair on June 08, 2013, 05:11:55 pm
I'd be cool with worshipping Coyote.

Have fun with the Gunnerkrigg Court variant... never mind Ysengrin.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: R. U. Sirius on June 08, 2013, 06:20:24 pm
I'd be cool with worshipping Coyote.

Bah. I refuse to worship anything that regularly gets its ass handed to it by its own incompetence. You'd think he'd figure out that Acme isn't a reliable company by now! ;)
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: ironbite on June 08, 2013, 08:38:55 pm
Who the fuck is Quetzacoatl?

The name of my eidolon in Pathfinder.

Ironbite-commonly nicked named Que.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Rime on June 08, 2013, 08:45:14 pm
I agree with your description of the keys being in a human language being proof a human made it. What I don't understand is why you can't follow that same logic to the conclusion that something like the human eye is less likely to have just came together on its own than a keyboard. The differences between the complicated structure of the human eye and an HP laptop are astronomical.

God isn't smart enough to create the vertebrate eye without breaking Laws of Physics?  If you had the faith of a mustard seed...
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Vypernight on June 09, 2013, 05:06:51 am
A visit by a hot female angel with a high sex drive who wants to be with me (and no negative consquences) with definite proof of all of that.

In other words, an undesputed miracle.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: rageaholic on June 09, 2013, 10:08:17 am
Actual proof that this isn't all some gigantic scam to control people.  From what I've observed with religion, it is nothing more than humans telling other humans what God wants.  In other words, the teachings of man, something they claim to be against.   If God is so personal and can control this whole universe, than surely God can take a more active role than the humans claiming to speak for him.  Yet the only people who "know" god are a few select people who claim to be saved.  Why would God be so secretive?  When any "evidence" for God can be explained by other means, then there is no reason to assume God exists, let alone the Christian God. 

And I've heard all the apologetic explanations for this.  We're too sinful, Gods time is not our time, we need to have more faith.  Excuses. Excuses. Excuses.  None of those are strong answers, but whe you're so convinced your this horrible vile creature (never mind being created by a "pure" god), you'll accept it.  But even when I was convinced of that, I still could never truly love a God who would send people to eternal torment for being flawed (the way God made us).  So even if there was proof of the Christian God, I could never honestly love such a being.   
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: mellenORL on June 09, 2013, 01:07:08 pm
The dismally tiny and shallow scale of human deity worship is what convinces me that it is all simply a result of ongoing human development, an inevitable phase.

It's all focused on us, the god(s) are like us, the universe of religion revolves around us. It is infantile. It is an ignorant savage's crutch to both encourage his endeavors to survive and his excuse when things just go wrong. It is also the more educated, clever manipulators' tool to gain power, wealth and social/political prestige and dominance over others.

Reality is just so vast, fascinating, astounding, terrible and beautiful, that the more we learn, the more I find it a crime that people's minds are cramped and cowered by religion. Some people see it as depressing, that the universe is so indifferent to us. Indeed, we should be grateful we are intelligent enough to actually see and want to know more about the universe. That we exist and can be sentient and be curious and brave and adventurous is what is miraculous, in what is only so far as we know YET, an unoccupied glorious vastness. That yet is easily the most exciting and wonderful reason to be glad to be human. I wonder who we will talk to some day? I don't think they will visit physically, because space/time physics are impractical, but communication may someday happen. Hope I live to witness that.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Meshakhad on June 11, 2013, 02:12:08 am
It would take convincing evidence that either the Torah is false, or a good explanation for how the New Testament or Koran superseded it.

Attempting to convert me to a faith that believed in magic would also have to come with convincing evidence of magic.

I do have an interest in some faiths other than Judaism - Hussite Christianity for one, and neopaganism for another.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Lithp on June 11, 2013, 04:34:37 am
Isn't the Torah basically just the Old Testament? 'Cause the Old Testament has that ark thing.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Meshakhad on June 12, 2013, 10:43:29 pm
Isn't the Torah basically just the Old Testament? 'Cause the Old Testament has that ark thing.

The Torah is the first five books of the Old Testament: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. According to the traditional Orthodox belief, they were directly authored by G-d, and transcribed by Moses. The Torah contains all 613 Jewish commandments.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: davedan on June 12, 2013, 10:48:42 pm
So yes it contains the Ark thing.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Meshakhad on June 13, 2013, 12:37:41 am
When I say "magic" I mean "any supernatural forces not directly attributable to G-d". Part of my monotheism is that G-d alone can abrogate the laws of science.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Lithp on June 13, 2013, 01:37:01 am
So the rules are that the Home Team is supposed to stand up to scrutiny, & the Away Team is supposed to show that it doesn't, but the Home Team Captain can cheat?
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: majingojira on July 16, 2013, 06:57:32 pm
According to Rapture Ready, the only time that the world will receive direct and clear evidence that God exists is when the rapture occurs, but by which time it will be too late, and even if you convert you will be stuck on Earth for seven years to be tormented by the tribulations sent from Heaven while being stalked and persecuted by the Beast.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: rageaholic on July 17, 2013, 12:11:34 pm
According to Rapture Ready, the only time that the world will receive direct and clear evidence that God exists is when the rapture occurs, but by which time it will be too late, and even if you convert you will be stuck on Earth for seven years to be tormented by the tribulations sent from Heaven while being stalked and persecuted by the Beast.

Pretty convenient that God won't reveal himself until it's too late.  You'd think God would want people to know he exists. 
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: wrightway on July 17, 2013, 12:39:10 pm
According to Rapture Ready, the only time that the world will receive direct and clear evidence that God exists is when the rapture occurs, but by which time it will be too late, and even if you convert you will be stuck on Earth for seven years to be tormented by the tribulations sent from Heaven while being stalked and persecuted by the Beast.

Pretty convenient that God won't reveal himself until it's too late.  You'd think God would want people to know he exists.

This makes as much sense as a rapturite argument, but is more entertaining.

 
Quote
The Babel fish is small, yellow and leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy received not from its own carrier but from those around it. It absorbs all unconscious mental frequencies from this brainwave energy to nourish itself with. It then excretes into the mind of its carrier a telepathic matrix formed by combining the conscious thought frequencies with the nerve signals picked up from the speech centres of the brain which has supplied them. The practical upshot of all this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language. The speech patterns you actually hear decode the brainwave matrix which has been fed into your mind by your Babel fish.
Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen it to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets killed on the next zebra crossing.
Most leading theologians claim that this argument is a load of dingo's kidneys, but that didn't stop Oolon Colluphid making a small fortune when he used it as the central theme of his best-selling book Well That About Wraps It Up For God.
Meanwhile, the poor Babel fish, by effectively removing all barriers to communication between different races and cultures, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation.[/]
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: Old Viking on July 17, 2013, 03:47:59 pm
A lobotomy.
Title: Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
Post by: majingojira on July 18, 2013, 02:38:51 am

Pretty convenient that God won't reveal himself until it's too late.  You'd think God would want people to know he exists.

And miss the opportunity to see the looks on unbelievers' faces when they are all proven wrong? You think too highly of BibleGod. He's emotionally still in middle-school.