Author Topic: Random Explains Therianthropy/answers questions  (Read 12745 times)

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Offline Igor

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Re: Random Explains Therianthropy/answers questions
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2012, 09:09:31 am »
Just another small note I forgot before, not all therians actually experience shifts of any kind. Some of us are always entirely shifted, as it were, so it's more a normal state of being for those individuals - they're always most like their animal side, instead of getting more like it sometimes, as it were. I'm really bad at explaining this, especially since I haven't slept yet, just wanted to note that.

(Edit: because this bumpd the page, if you haven't read my last post on the previous one, please do before responding.)


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Offline Pak

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Re: Random Explains Therianthropy/answers questions
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2012, 10:31:53 am »
An interesting thread. I love to see topics like this, that are so often covered in word salad and drama, discussed in a serious tone.

I have a question from the last page and I'll put it first before my general thoughts so you don't have to read through my opinions to find the point: what distinguishes dream shifting from just dreaming? Is it sort of in general "any dream involving wolves = dream shift" or is it more that the dream in question comes with a change in experience? And, just to clarify, cause I don't know if I'm understanding right, is dream shifting more a projection or an experience? Is it more "I'm shifting into a wolf in reality" (either mentally or whatever) or is it "I'm dreaming that I am a wolf?" I feel like that came out badly but words bad today much yes.

And here are my general opinions so that it's obvious where I stand (note: can be ignored like most opinions).

As with anything, the line for me comes to mechanism. What phenomena demonstrably exists that allows a thing to happen? With therians, the main one (from what I understand) is the soul. If something is real, then it has a mechanism that can be analyzed with the right tools, and for therians, that mechanism seems to be the soul. Without it, then the idea falls back on general psychological explanations. Since there is no current evidence for the soul, then I'm apt to accept therians as belief, explainable by psychology.

Course, that's just me pretending to be an empiricist, and it doesn't diminish the subjective experience anymore than telling me my brain is translating light into understandable images diminishes my enjoyment of watching Southland Tales. I have met some a-hole therians, or those kind who are real pushy with their beliefs (the sort who hide in a fortress of "you can't prove me wrong cause it's how I feel that matters" when you actually try to question their ideas), but they're just the 10%. Honestly, I'm a bit disappointed there isn't more open dialogue like this between any of the emerging subcultures of today and the world at large. Discussion makes people take things seriously, and as long as they aren't politics, the more people who take it seriously, the less damage the 10% of jerks can do.

Edit: Clarified my question.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 10:38:07 am by Pak »

Offline Igor

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Re: Random Explains Therianthropy/answers questions
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2012, 12:12:06 pm »
Well, at least in my experience, dream shifting is when I dream that I either already am or turn into a wolf in said dream. It's not just any old wolf dream, though, they tend to be a little bit more... realistic than my dreams usually are. It's... well, let me put it this way, the closest anyone's ever going to get to a physical shift is a lucid dream and a dream-shift. I hope that helps.. again, I'm sleep deprived at the moment (I always am when I'm posting here, aren't I?) so forgive me if I'm a little incomprehensible.

Yeah, essentially the point of this thread is to have a little communication open here, there is an incredible amount of bad press about the community already, not helped by the tumblrkin at all, and if you ask one of them to explain their views they'll say something like "it's not my job to educate you". Well, that's sort of what I'm trying to do. "Educate you" sounds kind of asshole-ish, but I've taken it upon myself to explain and answer questions as best as I can, and hopefully get taken somewhat seriously. Also I want to stress that I'm not saying that anyone has to believe me or agree with me, just don't write me off as crazy as soon as I say I'm a therian. It's sort of like how, well, I'm not a Christian, but I'm not going to walk up to anyone who is and tell them flat out that they're wrong because I don't believe what they do. I realize this sounds unfairly accusatory, I'm not saying anyone here is doing that (you're not, and I'm really glad of that), I'm just saying in general.


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Offline Morgenleoht

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Re: Random Explains Therianthropy/answers questions
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2012, 01:50:30 am »
This is totally fascinating. Thanks for sharing this stuff with me.
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Offline Igor

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Re: Random Explains Therianthropy/answers questions
« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2013, 03:32:17 pm »
You know it's a bad sign when I feel like I need to reiterate again that the kinds of people quoted in the Social Justice thread and (as of just now) in the Subculture thread in F&B don't represent me or any other (sane) therian I know (I do know a few that are quite out there, but even they aren't that out there). I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but you know the crazies don't represent the rest of any group.

Now, to give reviving this thread an actual point, here's a completely unrelated tangent: You'd be surprised how many people assume I'm some kind of vegan after I explain all of this to them, reasoning, I think, that if I believe myself to be (on some level) an animal, then I'm somehow morally against eating them. Forgetting of course that wolves are carnivores and that for all that, I'm still a human, and therefore an omnivore. So yeah, don't think there's any reason for me to give up the meat there.

Anyways, that's all I can think of for now. As always, ask me anything (any honest questions, please), and I'll do my best to answer.


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Offline Manic Puma

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Re: Random Explains Therianthropy/answers questions
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2013, 06:00:43 pm »
Been lurking on these boards for a long time, and I can't believe I never saw this topic before, so I have to throw in my two cents.

I've been a furry for nearly a decade now, and like many others thought the "otherkin", as I knew them, were wackjobs who were delusional. In fact, just now did I hear of the term "therian". I was extremely naive. That changed when I met my current girlfriend, who never heard of this phenomenon yet just couldn't identify as a human. I told her about this, and initially suggested she is a domestic dog of sorts, a golden retriever most likely. It makes sense since her personality is extremely canine-like in ways that'd take to long to explain. She at first didn't have a clue what I was talking about and after looking into it she decided it sounded right.

I'll have to be brief here since I got to run to work soon... Long story short, after years of experimenting around with different animals, she for the past year or two now identifys as a Ponykin... not the horse, but the MLP:FiM variety. Personally I'm still leery on it, as I personally believe one can have a spirit of an animal that doesn't exist. But, its been consistent for nearly a year. I gotta go now, so I'll add on when I get home. I'll just say, if anybody remembers the poster who identified as Pinkie Pie a while back, that was her.

EDIT, to avoid double posting:

Now that I'm back, I can finish. Yes, she was the Pinkie Pie who showed up and disappeared on these boards randomly. She never chose the Pinkie persona herself, it was pretty much assigned to her by a group of Bronies we used to hang out with. It was bad match for her, to say the least, and thankfully, a thing of the past. She has since taken Fluttershy as her spirit pony, and is much better for it.

From what I can tell, she doesn't actually believe she is Fluttershy, but that its her "avatar" or that she shares a similar spirit to her. I'd go deeper into it, but I really don't understand it myself. I may go see if I can get to explain it herself, but she lately has been a lot more private in her life, so I'm not sure if she would. I'm hoping I didn't share too much already.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 02:57:13 am by Manic Puma »

Offline Igor

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Re: Random Explains Therianthropy/answers questions
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2013, 03:14:19 am »
Gonna say, personally I draw the like well before fictionkin. Having said that, I'm not one to devalue someone's personal identity, so I'm going to treat it how everyone else treats me and therianthropy; don't believe it myself, but live and let live. I would argue, though, that one can't have the spirit/soul/what-have-you of something that only started existing after you were born, and I will (always) call people out who claim to be specific characters.


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The logical response to getting that tingle in his dingle is turning into an asshat, of course.

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Offline Auggziliary

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Re: Random Explains Therianthropy/answers questions
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2013, 10:59:35 pm »
I guess I like the idea of anthro stuff. Like I sometimes admire how other animals get along, like many parrots. I wish people acted like parakeets in the pet store sometimes, where they just run around and chirp at each other and only hold a grudge for like 2 seconds. Plus they all care for each other, such as preening each other's feathers.
I'd totally give up my life as a human if I could transform into a parakeet in Australia or something. Or a pet one with a loving owner.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Random Explains Therianthropy/answers questions
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2013, 06:08:19 pm »
I'm hoping Random doesn't mind if I bump this thread up to talk about what it's like being dragonkin.  Though I do want to re-establish some points.

First of all, any otherkin who claims that their brain is of x animal is bullshitting to themselves and everyone else.  For one thing, if they did have that similarity... how the fuck are they communicating with us on the internet?

Otherkin and therianthropy is all about the spirit.  It's a spiritual thing.  It's something that probably dates back to when tribal societies were the norm -- hell, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the first priests was considered to be the incarnation of the sun or something.  It's not a new concept and never will be.

Furthermore, any similarities it has to being transgendered are merely superficial.  And any otherkin who tries to hijack the movement needs to have some sense slapped into them.

So, now, what is it like for me?

It's remarkably almost exactly like being human, for one thing.  I eat human foods, drink human drinks, shit like a human, talk like a human, sleep like a human.  You know why?  I AM A FUCKING HUMAN.

This is one thing that annoys me about many otherkin, tumblr or aside.  They deny their humanity.  That's stupid.

On the IRC, I tend to do some dragon-like things.  You know why I do this?  Because I want to.  Simple as that.  I'm a role-player.  The face I chose for my internet persona is that of a dragon.  In addition to being a dragon-kin, I am also a major fan of dragons.

Do I believe dragons exist?  Believe it or not, my answer is not "Yes."  Maybe they exist on some spiritual level behind a sort of dimensional veil (kinda like the Fair Folk) but other than that, but I'm pretty sure they don't exist in any physical way.  Unless you count the lizards of the "draco" genus who are basically sugar-gliders, but lizards.  Those are cool.

Am I special?  I know some people here would call me that, and not for nice reasons ;D.  I'm not sure I can disagree with them on that, either.  Am I a special snowflake?  No, not really.  If anything, I'm actually kind of a loser who suffers from depression.  I can think of a lot of people who are better than me.  I kinda hate myself, actually.

But enough of the pity party.  Here's the thing about being dragonkin, though.  It just... kinda is.  It's no more important than the fact that I like pizza.  I'm not some persecuted minority for it.  It doesn't define me anymore than having blonde hair does.

And if you want to poke fun at me for it, great!  I'm not going to take myself too seriously about it, and neither should you.

I will say this, though.  I've heard that some people consider the whole "otherkin" thing to be inherently offensive to transpeople.  And I can see where they're coming from with that.  I disagree that it's inherently offensive, but I have seen otherkin that have tried to hijack the movement, and all I can do is apologize that they exist.

That being said, I'm not going to change my spiritual beliefs just because I offended someone.  That would be wrong.

Outside of this thread, though, it's not a big deal.  It's not my one issue that I'm going to die on a hill for.  It's a little quirk.  Nothing more, nothing less.
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Offline niam2023

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Re: Random Explains Therianthropy/answers questions
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2013, 06:55:37 pm »
I have a question.

I know I said something inconsiderate before, but the thing is, it legitimately confuses me. The experiences that -kin / therians go through.

How do you know? How are you supposed to know what your soul is? I do not have much experience looking inward at my soul, as its presumably rather vacant.

I just have to know, how did you find out or come to believe that you are a human with the spirit of a wolf or dragon in Zachski's case? It is a question that has been nagging at me. How do you come to know your soul in such a manner that you can identify as such?
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Offline Alehksunos

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Re: Random Explains Therianthropy/answers questions
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2013, 08:15:30 pm »
Are there therians who identify as fictional animals, such as Roos or Pikkards from the Ys games? Or does that fall under otherkin?

By "Roos," do you by any chance refer to those oviparous kangaroos from the Bomberman games?

Also, I've seen myself as human and I always have. An unapologetic one too. For a long time, I've seen people who seen themselves as animals - real or fictional - and other humanoid races (such as elves, Klingons, Vulcans, etc.) ridiculous. Then again, the reason why is because the internet has taught me to be incredibly judgmental. It's sites like the Encyclopedia Dramatica (which can go to hell) and Something Awful that has opened me up to some of the creepiest people on the net, often times for a good reason. And then there are people who do engage in simple escapism while remembering who they are and how to live. I've heard of people roleplaying as charaters from a work or as their own in that universe, and often times they come back to reality unharmed.

...You know, the longer I stay in this community, the more more understanding and less judgmental I become.

Offline Igor

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Re: Random Explains Therianthropy/answers questions
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2013, 09:24:25 pm »
I have a question.

I know I said something inconsiderate before, but the thing is, it legitimately confuses me. The experiences that -kin / therians go through.

How do you know? How are you supposed to know what your soul is? I do not have much experience looking inward at my soul, as its presumably rather vacant.

I just have to know, how did you find out or come to believe that you are a human with the spirit of a wolf or dragon in Zachski's case? It is a question that has been nagging at me. How do you come to know your soul in such a manner that you can identify as such?
Hmm... Let's see... it's hard to answer this without sounding really lame. Well, I've seen thousands of posts now from people listing off various things about themselves, like a preference for raw meat or a distrust of (other) humans or a really good sense of smell or the like, and asking if these things made them therians, or assuming that they were and citing these things as proof. In reality, these things have absolutely nothing to do with it. The answer a lot of the more jaded people on the forums I'm on give is usually something along the lines of "If you have to ask, you aren't one," but to give a more proper answer, it's kind of like... reading what it is and people's different experiences with it resonates with some people, they see something like this and go "Yeah, that's me" or "Suddenly a lot of things make sense now..."

Of course, even that's not a guarantee either way, but if what you read falls into place with things you've felt or experienced and it just feels right, that's what people take as a cue to at least look more into it. I kinda take the same stance when it comes to religion, if a certain mythology or whatever resonates with you, at least look into it. Okay, I know that's kind of a non-answer, but it's not really the kind of thing anyone else can tell you (general you).


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Re: Random Explains Therianthropy/answers questions
« Reply #42 on: February 27, 2013, 04:56:01 am »
Seeing as how Zach's post was a direct call out to me, I feel the need to respond.

Quote
First of all, any otherkin who claims that their brain is of x animal is bullshitting to themselves...

Otherkin and therianthropy is all about the spirit.  It's a spiritual thing.

This distinction between spirit and mind is all good and well, except for the numerous short comings it has. First and foremost, I don't believe in spirits, or spectres, or souls. If spirits don't exist, then this whole distinction is dubious at best. At worst, it reverts the difference between otherkins/therians and ordinary people right back to being in the mind, which I will address later. Second, I see this distinction as solely an ad hoc excuse to distance yourselves from criticism. Knowing that transpeople find such claims of "having an animal's brain" offensive, you (general) just move the goal posts further down the line and outside the range of our epistomological knowledge, but clearly a distinction exists between otherkins/therians and ordinary people, as I too will address later.

The other fault that I find with even the "moderate and rational" otherkins/therians is that you two (Zach and Random) have both stated that this is either something "you are or something you aren't" and that it is "unchangeable" (see footnote #1). These statements differ drastically with any understanding of spirituality. Spirituality is something that one is in no way instilled with from birth. While certain societies may guide their offspring towards their belief, their is nothing differentiating one person from another in their specific spirituality. I was born Christian, but I can convert to a Hindu, Muslim, or Zoroastrian at any point by obeying their holy texts and practicing their faith. According to you I just can't become a rabbit-kin. At this point, you're not saying that these things are spiritual, but they're an intrinsic part of yourself that you are projecting onto spirituality. A part of yourself so intrinsic it can't be changed or altered. For clarity, I see religion and spirituality as the same.

The other dangerous thing with this "born this way" argument is that it legitimizes the very claims that you are trying to distance from otherkin/theriantropy. Saying that there is a legitimate difference that one is born with legitimizes the claims of those nutters seeking "species reassignment surgery." Saying that this difference exists actually puts those nuts on par with GID. Who is anyone else, especially one who doesn't feel these "soul-struggles" and "otherkin struggles," to deny them their claims? Even saying it is a "soul" thing is not much different as "hey, I just want to transition because I have a woman's soul" is the first thing that comes to mind. Identity comes from somewhere, saying that some separate identity comes from the soul is only moving it out of where it really comes from (the brain). Not to mention the difference between this identity coming from the brain or soul is superfluous if not non-existant.

The second reason I find this intrinsic-ness dangerous is that in legitimizing the claims of these nuts, you just reaffirm their delusions and could very well guide them away from getting the mental help they deserve. This is a perfect example of benign nonsense (you and Random) fueling the dangerous nonsense (nuts on tumblr). You can't say "we're born different" or "we can't help it" and then act like those idiots on tumblr are just getting such nonsense from thin air.

Finally, in an unrelated note, these nuts are doing a great disservice to transpeople in general. First, by making this something you are "born as" all you do is legitimize the bigots that trans-people have faced for the last, well forever. Now, they can take away the "born this way argument" because you are also born this way. Not only are you born this way, you don't seek to transition to be wolves and dragons, so why would anyone need to transition genders. Second they can assert that their "what's next, people wanting to be animals" claims correct since it literally happened. Also, otherkins haven't been around "since tribal societies." The earliest known mention of them are from online groups in April 1990. I feel that statement is just projected, like how some bisexuals feel everybody is bi. Finally people who would normally be sympathetic to transpeople now see this nonsense and may think otherwise in their acceptance of us. And for what?

And this brings me back to the post you made last time you tried to prove to me how "otherkin isn't offensive to transpeople." I'm sorry if this is breaking a rule about quoting from other threads, but I find this pertinant for a few reasons. First, I let the topic go to be nice. I don't like arguing about other people's beliefs. I walked away literally to spare you a tongue lashing. Returning to that point, other thing about that post is how it says "Soul-struggles as opposed to the fact that one's gender literally does not match one's sex."

I literally wish I could show you just how dumb that statement is. I wish I could explain how my earliest memory is being upset that I couldn't be Snow White for Halloween. I wish I could explain how when I wanted to grow my hair long as a 6 year old, my parents beat me and physically held me down while cutting my hair. Not to mention how traumatic that was. I wish you could know how terrible it is to repress yourself for almost 20 years, jumping through hoops just to make others happy. I wish I could explain getting envious to the point of crying of other women as they developed. I wish you could know the fear of seeing secondary sex characteristics develop before your eyes and wishing more than anything they would stop. I would like you to see how I cut myself at 13-15 just trying to control some of the pain I was feeling. I wish you could see me and how for the better part of the last decade I was high or drunk more often then I could explain just trying to forget my gender if not OD. I wish you could see how scared I was when I finally did come out to someone, how I was crying tears of fear that they would never speak to me again. I wish you could experience these things, because you can't imagine how much it sucks until you do. That is literally the best way to describe GID, it sucks, it fucking sucks. I doubt therian/otherkin groups have nearly the same suicide rate (30%) that transpeople do. I'm literally in tears right now because when you say things like "soul-struggles as opposed to gender struggles" it trivializes just how horrible my (and others) experiences are. And for what, why does trivialization take place? I honestly don't know. My best guess is so you can be like those pagan kids in High School and rebel against Christianity.

There was one thing you said that was correct. There is a differences between gender struggles and soul struggles. One is real, the other isn't

In closing, I feel Sylvana best summarized my view on this matter

I will be honest, I perceive most/all other-kin as delusional. I am even willing to include furies in that list. However, I would like to say that it just my own opinion and I follow a live and let live approach.

If you want to make this spiritual, then make it spiritual. Stop saying it's something you're "born as" or "something you can't change." Admit it's just meditation in your basement or having a spirit animal. Admit that anyone can be an otherkin/therian. And for the love of God, don't ever say "otherkin-struggles" again. When you say "I can't change who I am" and "If you have to ask, you aren't one" then you two have taken it out of the range of spiritual, not me.

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Offline Søren

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Re: Random Explains Therianthropy/answers questions
« Reply #43 on: February 27, 2013, 08:39:19 am »
Random nitpick: Random didn't say "if you have to ask, you aren't one" he's quoting others.

Also the otherkinness of zach and random doesn't affect you and neither does their perception of being born with it or otherwise. Get over it

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Re: Random Explains Therianthropy/answers questions
« Reply #44 on: February 27, 2013, 09:20:10 am »
Random nitpick: Random didn't say "if you have to ask, you aren't one" he's quoting others.

This is going to be kind of disappointing to hear, but as for why a wolf, it's what feels right, I don't know how else to put it. It makes sense to me in a way nothing else does. Same for how I know I actually am a therian, it feels right to me. You would be surprised how many posts we get on this other forum I'm on where somebody will show up and ask "Hey, am I a therian? here are a bunch of things I think might be symptoms" and then they'll spout off a list of things like how they like raw meat and the moon affects their mood and whatnot. Those things have nothing to do with whether or not one is a therian, at all. The answer to that question is basically "If you have to ask, you most likely aren't one." If you find out about therianthropy and what it actually is and say "Hey, that's me, I've always felt that way", you very often don't have to ask.

Also the otherkinness of zach and random doesn't affect you and neither does their perception of being born with it or otherwise.

I've already pointed out how the whole shenanigans trivializes GID, how it disparages social acceptance of trans people, and how it is just flat out offensive. I disagree!

Get over it

Ironic, I was thinking the same thing about you.