Mass shooting in a gay club in Florida

[dpareja]

Seen on another forum:

I have strong feelings on the gun issue, but this is not a day nor a place to discuss them.

Of course, the problem is that shootings are so frequent that by the time it's the day to discuss the gun issue with respect to one shooting, another's already occurred and it's no longer the day to discuss the gun issue.

[Skybison]

To be honest, I think that atheists blaming all of Christianity for the actions of any random bad thing a Christian has done are morons too.  Christianity and Islam are huge religions with a wide variety of different interpretations.  This entire religion is evil because one person did a bad thing is bigotry, plain and simple.

It's also self indulgent wankery. "If only all of the people in the world were as clever, rational and educated as I am and gave up this religion silliness..."

Yeah I think that's why the New Atheist movement ended up having so many misogynists and xenophobes.  Big chunks of the movement just spent all their time patting themselves on the back for rejecting one kind of irrational thinking that they lost sight of the fact they can still be irrational in other ways, and then get angry when this is pointed out.

For what it's worth, the shooters father has said he doesn't believe the shooting wasn't religiously motivated http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/orlando-shooting-religion_us_575d76d5e4b0e39a28add69f

[SCarpelan]

I have no problem with anyone calling Islam superstitious bullshit or criticizing any of its interpretations. Depending on the context this criticism can be loaded with xenophobia but the criticism itself is not only acceptable but also welcome.

I do however dislike blaming a whole heterogenic religion or a group of cultures based on the actions of a small minority. Ignoring the social and political factors when it comes to terrorism is harmful since it's easier to influence them directly than the religious factor. Since all these factors are intertwined influencing the other aspects of the situation would eventually ripple to the religion, too.

[The_Queen]

I have no problem with anyone calling Islam superstitious bullshit or criticizing any of its interpretations. Depending on the context this criticism can be loaded with xenophobia but the criticism itself is not only acceptable but also welcome.

I do however dislike blaming a whole heterogenic religion or a group of cultures based on the actions of a small minority. Ignoring the social and political factors when it comes to terrorism is harmful since it's easier to influence them directly than the religious factor. Since all these factors are intertwined influencing the other aspects of the situation would eventually ripple to the religion, too.

This sums up my opinion. All religion is superstitious drivel, but people have a right to believe what they want, and they shouldn't be discriminated or persecuted for their faith. But more so to the point, this selective notion that Islam is some how responsible for all of the evil of its followers, coupled with different treatment of other faiths, is blatant discrimination and islamophobia. One would think that people would learn the error of their ways after the way this nation treated Islam following 9/11... Alas, 'Murica.

[lord gibbon]

I'd just like to point out that one of the last major genocides was committed ON Muslims BY Christians. So much for trying to say Muslims are "worse". The previous statements on religion (particularly Queen's) sum up my opinion. Religion is, at best, useless, but it is not my place nor my right to tell people what they can or cannot believe.

[Ultimate Paragon]

To be honest the shooting has got me more interested in the "conversion therapy" bullshit.

How so?

[dpareja]

Actually seen in another thread on this topic as someone's "last two cents" on the issue:

http://www.infowars.com/10-reasons-why-gun-control-wont-work/

I don't think I need to quote from the article for you all to have a good idea of what'll be in there, since it's from Info Wars.

[Askold]

It has been pointed out that the Wounded knee massacre had 150 victims so it beat this one by 200% and there have been other similarly sized or even bigger massacres in USA as well...

As for the"not the time to talk about gun laws" argument... Last year there were more than 365 mass shootings in USA so is there is some universal waiting period after each one before you can talk about gun control then there will never be time for it in USA.

[The_Queen]

It has been pointed out that the Wounded knee massacre had 150 victims so it beat this one by 200% and there have been other similarly sized or even bigger massacres in USA as well...

As for the"not the time to talk about gun laws" argument... Last year there were more than 365 mass shootings in USA so is there is some universal waiting period after each one before you can talk about gun control then there will never be time for it in USA.

No, the point is that we're never supposed to talk about sensible gun regulations. Ever. We can talk about mental health (even though this was about discrimination and homophobia and not mental health), but we can never talk about gun regulations. It's the first rule of the NRA.

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

It has been pointed out that the Wounded knee massacre had 150 victims so it beat this one by 200% and there have been other similarly sized or even bigger massacres in USA as well...

As for the"not the time to talk about gun laws" argument... Last year there were more than 365 mass shootings in USA so is there is some universal waiting period after each one before you can talk about gun control then there will never be time for it in USA.

No, the point is that we're never supposed to talk about sensible gun regulations. Ever. We can talk about mental health (even though this was about discrimination and homophobia and not mental health), but we can never talk about gun regulations. It's the first rule of the NRA.

Mental health is an easy scapegoat to pin it on because no policymaker anywhere is going to be able to stop mental health problems from existing, particularly in America where any attempt to comprehensively deal with any major health problems will instantly be shut down because soshulusms.

[Skybison]

And the fact is most mass shooters aren't mentally ill, at least in a legal sense.  They are likely to have Narcissistic personality disorder or Sociopathy, but those are regarded as different things.  Better programs to help mentally ill people are a good idea, but those personality disorders are believed to be untreatable so it probably wouldn't have much impact on mass shootings.  Taking the guns from our warm live hands, that would.

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

People who are "mentally ill" in the sense that the.public understands it-i.e. unwell enough to need hospitalization are more lukely to be victims of violence than perpetrators of violence.

The reasons behind mass shootings are in a sense tragically simple. You need someone with the right level of rage and hate and the means to enact a massacre. That's it.

[TheContrarian]

"when will we start excluding an entire religion from our nation because a promille of a promille of a promille of them have committed terrorist acts in the West"

Fuck this clown.

I'm sure the families of the deceased will be very heartened to know that "Not all..."™

I'm sure you care about the deceased and their families past making a pointless jab.

This thread managed all of two responses before it reverted to the script of "herp-a-derp irrelevant stuff about neonazis and donald trump".  Not a...whole lot of sympathy for the victims in the posts above mine.

As it turns out, people exist outside the context of this thread. I know enough about most of the people posting here that I don't have cause to doubt what they feel about this. That this is a tragedy is, to most of us, an obvious background fact that doesn't need stating, so understandably the conversation can move to other aspects.

You, on the other hand... I don't know how you feel about the LGBT community. Maybe you're gay. Maybe you have several trans friends. Or maybe you don't. Like I said, I don't know you.

Well I certainly respect them enough not to throw them under the bus by launching into a slavish defence of a religion that teaches they should all be put to death.

Well
1. http://biblehub.com/leviticus/20-13.htm

2. The reason we're talking about the long term impact is because it's pointless to discuss how this is bad. So instead of just saying "This is bad and makes me sad" (it is and does) we talk about the broader and more significant cultural and political impact of the event.

3. You yourself are appose doing to gay marriage and think it will lead to pedophilia, so I have trouble thinking you seriously care about gay people.

Edit: TBH responding was a bad idea.

1. Yes.  Christianity is just as backward (more on this later)

2. No, you just don't want to address the fact that the murderer is from a group you (meaning progressives) consistently cuddle up to and use all manner of deflection and fallacious nonsense to absolve them when one of their number does something heinous.

3. Bollocks.  I actually support same-sex marriage, if you're referencing what I think you're referencing, it was a wider point about progressive activism.

On the christian thing...imagine this same action but let's change the flavour of the Abrhamism and say it was done by a christian (let's say Brian Fischer, just for the sake of imagery).  He's a hateful fuckwit and viciously homophobic due to the teachings of his religion.

Would you all hop into this thread with niceties like "only a tiny fraction of christians are homicidal maniacs", "surely not ALL christians are like that", "he's not a true scotsman christian anyway", "this has nothing to do with religion" etc etc?

Of course fucking not.  So just because this lunatic is from the beards and suicide vests end of the Abrahamic spectrum, you've decided you need to stick up for others who share his ideology.

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

And the vultures come out to feed on the carcass of the latest massacre.

And no, you weren't innocently making a point about progressives with your musings about gay marriage. You were blowing peeedooo into your little dog whistle with all your might.

[SCarpelan]

Would you all hop into this thread with niceties like "only a tiny fraction of christians are homicidal maniacs", "surely not ALL christians are like that", "he's not a true scotsman christian anyway", "this has nothing to do with religion" etc etc?

If there were claims about the acts being descriptive of the whole christianity then yes, yes, no and no.

The last two claims annoy me when they are directed at a Muslim terrorist. The first due to the obvious fallacy and the second due to religion being only part of the equation but not absent from it.

Edit: When used by other Muslims I think the True Scotsman fallacy stops being a fallacy. They might well hold a definition of a Muslim that does exclude committing such acts and due to the interpretative nature of religions they are justified in holding that opinion. In fact, I think it's a welcome mentality when it comes to the discussion within the Muslim communities.

The claim "nothing to do with religion" is luckily mostly present in the strawmans such as yours. I still gringe on those rare occasions when someone uses it seriously.