Author Topic: Rationality and Religion: Debating Anti-Theists  (Read 38242 times)

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Even Then

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Re: Rationality and Religion: Debating Anti-Theists
« Reply #75 on: October 05, 2015, 02:47:08 am »
So what you're saying is that faith in an entity... automatically means that the entity exists? What about all the other creation myths people have believed in and still do? Do all of those creators exist?

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Rationality and Religion: Debating Anti-Theists
« Reply #76 on: October 05, 2015, 08:50:52 pm »
So what you're saying is that faith in an entity... automatically means that the entity exists? What about all the other creation myths people have believed in and still do? Do all of those creators exist?

What I'm arguing for at the moment is the existence of some kind of divinity.  What I'm talking about is God in the abstract sense.  And the fact that humanity is programmed to believe in some kind of divinity seems to me like evidence in Gods favor.

By the way, Art, I'll be reading those links.  Thanks!

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Re: Rationality and Religion: Debating Anti-Theists
« Reply #77 on: October 05, 2015, 09:03:27 pm »
So how far has UP shifted the goal posts anyways?

Ironbite-is he three stadiums away now?

pyro

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Re: Rationality and Religion: Debating Anti-Theists
« Reply #78 on: October 05, 2015, 09:25:15 pm »
So how far has UP shifted the goal posts anyways?

Ironbite-is he three stadiums away now?

UP is answering questions that we're asking to clarify on the original claim. That's not goalpost moving.

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Re: Rationality and Religion: Debating Anti-Theists
« Reply #79 on: October 05, 2015, 11:25:02 pm »
So what you're saying is that faith in an entity... automatically means that the entity exists? What about all the other creation myths people have believed in and still do? Do all of those creators exist?

What I'm arguing for at the moment is the existence of some kind of divinity.  What I'm talking about is God in the abstract sense.  And the fact that humanity is programmed to believe in some kind of divinity seems to me like evidence in Gods favor.

By the way, Art, I'll be reading those links.  Thanks!

Why though? A god would not need to program a specific tendency towards belief in the divine, since if it wanted people to believe in it, that would be trivial (by showing up). And of course, a god who does not want to be believed in would not put that there in the first place. By necessity you must specify a very particular sort of god that wants people to believe in it, but not for the obvious reasons like "I met God and it healed my broken leg" but because of vague tendencies hidden in the brain. Obviously such a god is not a priori impossible, but it's a weird claim to make.

Besides, if you think that belief in the divine is hardwired, you are essentially saying you would be likely to believe in God even if there was no such thing. Are you sure you are arguing against theism being irrational?
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Offline davedan

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Re: Rationality and Religion: Debating Anti-Theists
« Reply #80 on: October 06, 2015, 12:09:47 am »
One of the reasons that the burden of proof is on the person asserting something is that assertion defines what is to be disproved. Are we simply discussing the god of the bible, or any god? What is it that defines god - is it simply a higher power? Is it a higher power that created the universe? Does it have to be sentient?

Edit: which thread did this argument spin-off?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 12:22:18 am by davedan »

Art Vandelay

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Re: Rationality and Religion: Debating Anti-Theists
« Reply #81 on: October 06, 2015, 12:46:22 am »
One of the reasons that the burden of proof is on the person asserting something is that assertion defines what is to be disproved. Are we simply discussing the god of the bible, or any god? What is it that defines god - is it simply a higher power? Is it a higher power that created the universe? Does it have to be sentient?

Edit: which thread did this argument spin-off?
The stupid videos thread.
So how far has UP shifted the goal posts anyways?

Ironbite-is he three stadiums away now?
Assuming his silence on the matter is tacit acceptance of how burden of proof and Occam's Razor actually works (which I shall assume unless he says otherwise), not all that much. He's now trying to make with some evidence that gods of some description exist, which would be the logical next step for him. It's certainly not good evidence, by any stretch of the imagination, but at least he's not trying to re-write basic logic anymore.

Baby steps, as they say.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 12:52:12 am by Art Vandelay »

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Re: Rationality and Religion: Debating Anti-Theists
« Reply #82 on: October 06, 2015, 10:48:02 am »
I think Davedan hit the nail on the head as to the crux of the issue: how are we defining a god?  Bring a person from da Vinci's time to our world, and he'd declare that we're either masters of high sorcery, or outright gods.  Hell, even a person from a century ago would view our world as a sci-fi wonderland full of bright, amazing, impossible toys that nobody (except Tesla) could've ever dreamed would exist.  What would be miracles to one group may be a simple matter of inherent understanding for the others.  Take the internet for example: it allows us almost instantaneous communication across the entire planet with people we've never even heard of, much less seen.  With it, almost any kind of information can be found, given enough time and patience.  Its a great bazaar and Great Library all rolled into one absurdly powerful technological marvel that has expanded our capacity to understand as a species.  Such things were the impossible fever dreams of science fiction authors when our grandparents were kids.  Nowadays, the current generation is barely even cognizant of a world in which the internet doesn't exist, and can use it almost as easily as they can any other tool.  What Shakespeare would've deemed sorcery of the highest caliber is a simple fact of life for us.

Basically, any so-called "gods" we could theoretically encounter may well just be a species so far advanced, technologically, that we are unable to comprehend their capabilities, leaving the admittedly careless to claim their works to be miracles or magic or what have you.  They might appear all-powerful to the untrained eye, but much like the episode of Next Generation where Picard and the Enterprise crew become worshiped as gods by a primitive people, they could be no less mortal than the rest of us, its just that they've found more ways to extend life and cheat death than we have.
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Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Rationality and Religion: Debating Anti-Theists
« Reply #83 on: October 07, 2015, 11:08:54 am »
I wasn't using Flew to defend the Bible, merely to defend God's existence.  If you'll notice, I never claimed he was a Christian, merely that he was a theist.  But if you want an actual Christian, I can cite none other than C. S. Lewis.

And as for his background as a philosopher, what about the many atheist philosophers who didn't start believing in God(s)?

You were using Flew. The Christlike Christian. You will have to excuse me if your beliefs color my perception of what exactly you are trying to defend particularly since his idea of god is and what I presume (in a generic sense) your idea of god is are pretty much at odds with one another.

And you'll have to pardon me if I think you're ridiculously biased.  You assumed I couldn't be bothered to look at a guy's Wikipedia page to find out what his personal beliefs were, and from there, you strawmanned me into using a deist to defend the Bible.  Either that, or your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired.

Sorry for the delay, it's been a busy couple of days.

I probably am biased, but not in the way you think I am. I figured you knew who Flew was and what his belief system entailed. I just think you are willfully making a disingenuous argument by citing him as proof that is rational to believe that there is a great creator behind the universe -- a.k.a. a god. From there it is a short hop to belief in gods is rational therefore Christ which is what I think your endgame in this debate is.

Strawman?

Maybe in a technical sense since you didn't expressly state Flew is proof of the logic of the existence of Christ. You have however said:
There are some reasons to believe there's actual evidence in favor of God's existence.
...God doesn't exist simply because nobody's proven He exists.
...God, merely the beliefs of some of His followers.
...His followers.
God's
God
God's
God's
...the Bible's historical accuracy...
...chunks of Genesis are considered to be metaphorical...
God's
God
...the Bible is less inaccurate than it was once claimed to be...

At this point we are at page three, reply 42, where you mention Flew. That's a whole lot of capitalizing the letter G for a unnamed and hypothetical creator of the universe. You also gave it a gender. And you take time out to defend the accuracy of the bible a few times when its accuracy or inaccuracy is completely immaterial to the concept of the kind of god you were supposedly espousing.

So yeah, I'm skeptical of your motives and maneuverings here. Granted, I could be wrong and maybe habits are so ingrained you that you automatically capitalize the G and assign a gender; and your referencing the bible was mostly done in response to something someone else said.

What I'm arguing for at the moment...

I think I'll just remain skeptical.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Rationality and Religion: Debating Anti-Theists
« Reply #84 on: October 07, 2015, 04:11:21 pm »
So what you're saying is that faith in an entity... automatically means that the entity exists? What about all the other creation myths people have believed in and still do? Do all of those creators exist?

What I'm arguing for at the moment is the existence of some kind of divinity.  What I'm talking about is God in the abstract sense.  And the fact that humanity is programmed to believe in some kind of divinity seems to me like evidence in Gods favor.

By the way, Art, I'll be reading those links.  Thanks!

Why though? A god would not need to program a specific tendency towards belief in the divine, since if it wanted people to believe in it, that would be trivial (by showing up). And of course, a god who does not want to be believed in would not put that there in the first place. By necessity you must specify a very particular sort of god that wants people to believe in it, but not for the obvious reasons like "I met God and it healed my broken leg" but because of vague tendencies hidden in the brain. Obviously such a god is not a priori impossible, but it's a weird claim to make.

Besides, if you think that belief in the divine is hardwired, you are essentially saying you would be likely to believe in God even if there was no such thing. Are you sure you are arguing against theism being irrational?

That's not what I meant.  What I'm saying is that humanity's natural belief in God is caused by God.  And I think that if there were no god, we wouldn't have this belief.  My argument is that the hardwired belief in God can be taken as reasonable evidence for God's existence.

As for your other arguments, I don't think we can understand God, any more than a cockroach can understand us.

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Granted, I could be wrong and maybe habits are so ingrained you that you automatically capitalize the G and assign a gender; and your referencing the bible was mostly done in response to something someone else said.

You guessed it!

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLT2erau3zo" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLT2erau3zo</a>

Art, the theory of patternicity is interesting, and I think it might explain superstition.  But I don't think it's an adequate explanation for the hardwired belief in God.

Even Then

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Re: Rationality and Religion: Debating Anti-Theists
« Reply #85 on: October 07, 2015, 04:23:12 pm »
...hardwired faith in God that's disproven by the existence of atheists and such.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Rationality and Religion: Debating Anti-Theists
« Reply #86 on: October 07, 2015, 04:29:27 pm »
...hardwired faith in God that's disproven by the existence of atheists and such.

Like I told you before, said faith can be transferred.

Even Then

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Re: Rationality and Religion: Debating Anti-Theists
« Reply #87 on: October 07, 2015, 04:45:15 pm »
But what you're saying with THAT is "people have the capacity for abstract thought, therefore God". It's a non-sequitur.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Rationality and Religion: Debating Anti-Theists
« Reply #88 on: October 07, 2015, 04:47:14 pm »
But what you're saying with THAT is "people have the capacity for abstract thought, therefore God". It's a non-sequitur.

No, it isn't.  What I'm talking about is belief in a higher power.  I don't see how or why it would have evolved naturally.

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Re: Rationality and Religion: Debating Anti-Theists
« Reply #89 on: October 07, 2015, 06:29:27 pm »
You guessed it!

So then would you be willing to concede that while belief in a creative force behind the formation of the universe may be rational, belief in a Christian God is not?