Gamers throw shitfit re: transgender character in Baldur's Gate

[RavynousHunter]

To hell with UPs arbitrary percentage, I have an actual way to test if something is significant, something that you can't fucking argue with: actual, real MATH.  A statistical test.  More specifically, a Z test.  I'll be marking each transphobic post as a "1," and any non-transphobic post as a "0."  The list contains 155 elements, consisting of 37 1s and 118 0s.

mu: 0.37374
sigma: 0.48626
mu₀: 0
Ha: mu != mu₀

From this, we get:

Z = 7.64743
P(Z) = 2.0685x10^-14

This means that the probability of this event happening by chance alone is infinitesimally small; we do not have enough evidence to reject the alternate hypothesis (Ha).  Statistically speaking, this must then, therefore, be due to some outside influence, the most likely culprit being targeted transphobia.  Oh, and the great thing about this?  Literally anyone can check my work.  Go ahead, if I cocked up something, let me know.

Fucking math.  It works, bitches.

Thank you Ravy. While I'm definitely a numbers person, certain elements of statistics escape me. You actually addressed the issue with hard numbers and facts in such a way that should put the debate to rest. Thank you for taking the time, to run the numbers, and explain a complex formula to us in a way that is easily understood.

Not a problem.  Statistics has to be my favourite field of math, though calculus is a very close second.  Its extremely useful for things like this, and having an opportunity to flex my statistical muscles felt good and I thank ET for giving me what I needed to do just that.

[Belloc]

Actually, he's saying that the transphobia and general conservatism are just overblown, maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan. (Despite being 1/4 of the comments at Gog.)

I'm not saying this to defend him but because if I don't, he'll just whine about being misunderstood and this thread will spin even more futilely on its ass.

Because transphobia and conservativism are inherently related.  Guess that makes TERFs conservatives.

Some probably are. What's your point?

Also, will you please respond to RavynousHunter's statistical data?

[Ultimate Paragon]

Actually, he's saying that the transphobia and general conservatism are just overblown, maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan. (Despite being 1/4 of the comments at Gog.)

I'm not saying this to defend him but because if I don't, he'll just whine about being misunderstood and this thread will spin even more futilely on its ass.

Because transphobia and conservativism are inherently related.  Guess that makes TERFs conservatives.

Some probably are. What's your point?

Also, will you please respond to RavynousHunter's statistical data?

Alright.  What are his criteria for a "transphobic" post?

[Even Then]

I picked comments that included transphobia and social conservatism, I never said they're the same thing (although they are closely related). Nice to know UP still hasn't learned how to read.

[ironbite]

You know guys I think we're missing something here.  Despite all evidence to the contrary, UP is insisting that transphobia doesn't actually exist or if it does, it's a very vocal minority.  Not elected officials passing laws that restrict where people can go to the bathroom no.  Just a vocal and loud minority that has no power or influence on anything that makes their case in comments sections all over the world.

Ironbite-or did we all miss that?

[Canadian Mojo]

You know guys I think we're missing something here.  Despite all evidence to the contrary, UP is insisting that transphobia doesn't actually exist or if it does, it's a very vocal minority.  Not elected officials passing laws that restrict where people can go to the bathroom no.  Just a vocal and loud minority that has no power or influence on anything that makes their case in comments sections all over the world.

Ironbite-or did we all miss that?

I think you're missing what is actually going on here. It wouldn't take much to get UP to admit that transphobia is a powerful and pervasive force in the world today that is undermining that is undermining people's rights with hate crimes and legislation. I'm also certain that he would agree that it is a wrong that should be righted. The thing is he doesn't really give a flying fuck about any of it.

All UP is interested in is how the world sees his particular clique and making sure its image is as favorable as possible. The problem is his clique doesn't have a very good image because, to be blunt, a significant chunk of them aren't very good people. As a result UP is forced to minimize exposure and damage caused by this undesirable element. We're seeing step one of this process right now; downplay it. The arguments are that it is only a few, it's not actually transphobia, there are legitimate gripes, it's media spin, the developer is playing the system, the usual.

The next step will be denial. It's not us, it's other people using us as a cover -- the classic no true Scotsman defense. There is a decent possibility of seeing a few token minority members and some of the 'good' things his clique has done being offered up as proof it's not them -- the classic I have black friends argument.

The third step will be to try and save face as he tucks tail and runs by offering us a draw or by throwing some new bait up somewhere else on the board for us to focus on while this thread sinks into obscurity.

[Ultimate Paragon]

You know guys I think we're missing something here.  Despite all evidence to the contrary, UP is insisting that transphobia doesn't actually exist or if it does, it's a very vocal minority.  Not elected officials passing laws that restrict where people can go to the bathroom no.  Just a vocal and loud minority that has no power or influence on anything that makes their case in comments sections all over the world.

Ironbite-or did we all miss that?

I'm not denying the existence of transphobia, or its pervasiveness.  All I'm saying is that I disagree with the assertion that this backlash is mainly due to transphobia.

[Even Then]

You know what? Fine. According to my observations, it's not just transphobia that's a notable pattern in the criticisms. It's transphobia and general "anti-SJW" social conservatism. (And, in the spirit of accuracy, also the game's other qualities. But also prominently the social conservatism.)

Also, what was that about consumers being the devil for letting a game's social context influence their rating? Or does that only apply when the commenters aren't right-wing enough for you?

[Ultimate Paragon]

You know what? Fine. According to my observations, it's not just transphobia that's a notable pattern in the criticisms. It's transphobia and general "anti-SJW" social conservatism. (And, in the spirit of accuracy, also the game's other qualities. But also prominently the social conservatism.)

Also, what was that about consumers being the devil for letting a game's social context influence their rating? Or does that only apply when the commenters aren't right-wing enough for you?

No, it only applies when the reviewers are deliberately trying to incur controversy.

And it's not necessarily social conservatives who are "anti-SJW."

[Even Then]

Because any reviewer who doesn't like the tidday can't possibly just not like the tidday. No, they're just liars that serve the god of Chaos to sow discord upon the land.

Anyway, this is veering too close to discussing The Amoral Hand-Wringers Who Shall Not Be Named, so I'll just tune out of the conversation for now with this final statement:

The transphobia and social conservatism are prominent and pervasive problems in the critique. However, a lot of people seem to think that the game is, independently of this, legitimately buggy and poorly designed, so that's also a notable element of the backlash. But the transphobia and social conservatism are arguably more warranting of discourse than the bugginess, because bugs don't perpetuate belief systems that oppress, marginalize, dehumanize and kill real people in the real world.

I feel dirty for even getting close to conceding a point to UP, but I don't want my personal hatred of someone keep me from continuing to keep my mind open and ready to think about a subject more. That would make me narrow-minded as well.

[Art Vandelay]

You actually addressed the issue with hard numbers and facts in such a way that should put the debate to rest.

Hah. Good joke.

[The_Queen]

You actually addressed the issue with hard numbers and facts in such a way that should put the debate to rest.

Hah. Good joke.

Thank Jesus-tits that somebody caught it.

[Ironchew]

All UP is interested in is how the world sees his particular clique and making sure its image is as favorable as possible. The problem is his clique doesn't have a very good image because, to be blunt, a significant chunk of them aren't very good people.

To be more blunt, hate groups attract hateful people.

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

The transphobia and social conservatism are prominent and pervasive problems in the critique. However, a lot of people seem to think that the game is, independently of this, legitimately buggy and poorly designed, so that's also a notable element of the backlash. But the transphobia and social conservatism are arguably more warranting of discourse than the bugginess, because bugs don't perpetuate belief systems that oppress, marginalize, dehumanize and kill real people in the real world.

It's a fair point, the trick is really sorting out legitimate criticism from the chaff generated by online mobs who're just mindlessly signal-boosting.

[Askold]

The official DnD FB page has this statement:

To our community,

Dungeons & Dragons stands by the stories our partners tell and we fully support the choices Beamdog has made in developing Siege of Dragonspear. Inclusivity is a core value of Wizards of the Coast and we believe that all people, regardless of ethnicity, background, gender identity or sexuality, should be free to play our games without fear of harassment or attacks. In July of 2014 we released the D&D Player’s Handbook for the fifth edition and included the following section as an example of our core values.

Sincerely,
Nathan Stewart
Director of Dungeons & Dragons

(For the record, ever since the first or second edition of DnD there has been an elven god/goddess that was either a hermaphrodite or changed gender occasionally.)

Naturally people are complaining to the owners of the DnD now.

This is the type of complaint that seems to be "fashionable" now and it's stupid.

It wasn't that they included a transgender person that has everyone so mad, it's because the transgender has no point to the story. It could be in the story or not. Just saying hey I'm transgender look at me! Yeah no thanks. That is trying to shove it down people's throats. I don't think most transgender people walk up and introduce themselves as a trans. That's stupid. I don't walk up to people as introduce myself as straight. I have my own personal views on the topic that I try not to involve in my hobby. I don't dislike anyone for the color of their skin or their sexual orientation. I let the person speak for themselves, I might not agree with their lifestyle choices but that their business, let's just play D&D and have fun!

There are different variations but the point seems to be, that nothing should exist unless it is relevant to the plot.

Minsc has Boo, but as Boo offers no relevance to the plot and isn't used in any quests, should it also have been removed? After all, all it did was add to the characterization of Minsc and help explain what kind of person he is. Kinda like how Mizhena being trans might not have a huge effect on the plot but is part of her character. Anyway, I bet these people would not have complained if an NPC had mentioned that they are married but their husband/wife is elsewhere and the subject would not have been raised again. This kind of worship of conservation of detail only ever seems to show up when the story has something people don't like.

...And the demand that trans people should stay in the closet is similarly flawed because a) it shows up AFTER the PC asks her about it b) Not everyone lives in a closet and perhaps a GODDAMN PRIESTESS OF A WAR GOD DOESN'T HAVE TO FEAR RANDOM FUCKERS GOING ON TRANSPANIC IF THEY OPEN THEIR MOUTH! OR PERHAPS THEY LIVE IN A PLACE WITH LESS TRANSPHOBIA THAN USA?!?

Finally: "I let the person speak for themselves, I might not agree with their lifestyle choices but that their business, let's just play D&D and have fun!"

Well, clearly you get enraged and complain to remove a single transperson character when one shows up so I am sceptical of your claim.

EDIT: and then I saw this...

The fact that you even had - or chose - to include something like this in your PHB proves that you're trying to force a viewpoint on a community that really doesn't need it to be addressed. I'm pretty sure nobody is preventing anybody from playing D&D however they want, so stating that D&D is inlcusive is entirely unneccessary and inapropriate. Leave real world politics and social issues out of it, and just let people play the game however they want.

...Well clearly your comment disproves the claim you are making so fuck you "Mister random person on the internet."