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Community => Society and History => Topic started by: Chaos Undivided on March 15, 2019, 10:39:33 am

Title: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: Chaos Undivided on March 15, 2019, 10:39:33 am
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2019/mar/15/christchurch-shooting-injuries-reported-as-police-respond-to-critical-incident-live (https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2019/mar/15/christchurch-shooting-injuries-reported-as-police-respond-to-critical-incident-live)

I can't be the only one getting flashbacks to what happened in Norway back in 2011. Holy fuck, this is horrifying.
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: Askold on March 15, 2019, 01:15:56 pm
Both times the terrorist left behind a "manifesto" and tried to do things in a way that would maximize the attention he gets.

This time though the killer is a living parody of internet racists. He even took the time to plug in an advertisement for Pew Die Pie...

Oh and a politician in Australia took this as an opportunity to blame the incident on the Muslims and right wingers are spreading conspiracy theories that this was a false flag attack or a complete hoax because of course they are...
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: Id82 on March 15, 2019, 01:31:07 pm
I absolutely love how there's been a large increase in Far right terrorism in the past few years and nobody is condemning it. Islamic terrorism they'll shit all over. Mexicans coming over the boarder for better economic freedom is ooooh scary.
But if a white guy is the perpetrator it's not terrorism. He was just a lone gun man with a mental issue and not part of a larger systemic problem. Or worse, the right wing media labels the whole thing as a false flag operation.

I mean look at these:
2/14/2019: FBI arrests Lt Christopher Hasson identifies as white nationalist admires Anders Brevik and had a hit list of Democrats.
11/3/2018: Scott Paul Beierle kills two and injures more at a yoga studio was a misogynist admirer of Elliot Rodger.
10/27/2018: Robert Gregory Bowers kills eleven people after storming the Tree of life synagogue shouting all Jews must die!
10/26/2018: Cesar Altieri Sayoc Jr is arrested in his pro trump plastered van after sending 13 mail bombs to prominent democratic figureheads.
10/25/2018: Gregory Bush kills two black people outside of a Kroger in Louisville Kentucky after failing to break into a black church to plan a massacre earlier in the day. He didn't shoot the arresting police officer because he claimed that Whites don't kill whites.
07/14/2018: Ronald Lee Kidwall is arrested after killing MeShon Cooper a 43 year old black woman in Kansas. Kidwall is a known member of the KKK and has pictures of himself draped in the confederate flag.
05/05/2018: Dustin Allen Hughes is arrested after making threatening calls to a local mosque claiming he's going to blow it up and kill the congregation.
02/14/2018: Nikolas Jacob Cruz shoots up the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High school killing seventeen and injuring more. Was known to make far right racist, antisemitic and homophobic comments and even Incels label him a hero.

These were all within the past year, but no politician or major news networks are talking about Right Wing terrorism.
What can be done about this? There's clearly an uptick in a sense of disenfranchised white men, but what is causing this? Mass migration by Muslim people? Obama? The internet? 4th wave feminism? All of the above?
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: dpareja on March 15, 2019, 09:11:08 pm
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/trump-new-zealand-white-identity-1.5059127

Suspect: Trump is "a symbol of renewed white identity". (But doesn't like him as a policymaker or leader.)

Trump: I have no idea what he said and what he did was horrible.
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: Chaos Undivided on March 15, 2019, 09:59:02 pm
I absolutely love how there's been a large increase in Far right terrorism in the past few years and nobody is condemning it. Islamic terrorism they'll shit all over. Mexicans coming over the boarder for better economic freedom is ooooh scary.
But if a white guy is the perpetrator it's not terrorism. He was just a lone gun man with a mental issue and not part of a larger systemic problem. Or worse, the right wing media labels the whole thing as a false flag operation.

I mean look at these:
2/14/2019: FBI arrests Lt Christopher Hasson identifies as white nationalist admires Anders Brevik and had a hit list of Democrats.
11/3/2018: Scott Paul Beierle kills two and injures more at a yoga studio was a misogynist admirer of Elliot Rodger.
10/27/2018: Robert Gregory Bowers kills eleven people after storming the Tree of life synagogue shouting all Jews must die!
10/26/2018: Cesar Altieri Sayoc Jr is arrested in his pro trump plastered van after sending 13 mail bombs to prominent democratic figureheads.
10/25/2018: Gregory Bush kills two black people outside of a Kroger in Louisville Kentucky after failing to break into a black church to plan a massacre earlier in the day. He didn't shoot the arresting police officer because he claimed that Whites don't kill whites.
07/14/2018: Ronald Lee Kidwall is arrested after killing MeShon Cooper a 43 year old black woman in Kansas. Kidwall is a known member of the KKK and has pictures of himself draped in the confederate flag.
05/05/2018: Dustin Allen Hughes is arrested after making threatening calls to a local mosque claiming he's going to blow it up and kill the congregation.
02/14/2018: Nikolas Jacob Cruz shoots up the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High school killing seventeen and injuring more. Was known to make far right racist, antisemitic and homophobic comments and even Incels label him a hero.

These were all within the past year, but no politician or major news networks are talking about Right Wing terrorism.
What can be done about this? There's clearly an uptick in a sense of disenfranchised white men, but what is causing this? Mass migration by Muslim people? Obama? The internet? 4th wave feminism? All of the above?

I dunno, I saw Hasson, Bowers and Cruz all described as terrorists. And I have seen plenty of talk about right wing terrorism. But maybe that's just our differing perspectives.

Personally, I think this increase in white supremacist violence is because of an increase in the number of people who hold white supremacist attitudes, which is in turn at least partly because of anti-white racism becoming more mainstream. It's the same basic principle as Islamophobia turning Muslims to jihadist ideology.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/trump-new-zealand-white-identity-1.5059127

Suspect: Trump is "a symbol of renewed white identity". (But doesn't like him as a policymaker or leader.)

Trump: I have no idea what he said and what he did was horrible.


Trump needs to take the potential threat of white supremacist terrorism more seriously. Even if he's right about it being a handful of people that have "very serious problems", you don't need much to kill dozens of people. Just one person and enough ammo.
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: niam2023 on March 16, 2019, 12:07:13 am
I absolutely love how there's been a large increase in Far right terrorism in the past few years and nobody is condemning it. Islamic terrorism they'll shit all over. Mexicans coming over the boarder for better economic freedom is ooooh scary.
But if a white guy is the perpetrator it's not terrorism. He was just a lone gun man with a mental issue and not part of a larger systemic problem. Or worse, the right wing media labels the whole thing as a false flag operation.

I mean look at these:
2/14/2019: FBI arrests Lt Christopher Hasson identifies as white nationalist admires Anders Brevik and had a hit list of Democrats.
11/3/2018: Scott Paul Beierle kills two and injures more at a yoga studio was a misogynist admirer of Elliot Rodger.
10/27/2018: Robert Gregory Bowers kills eleven people after storming the Tree of life synagogue shouting all Jews must die!
10/26/2018: Cesar Altieri Sayoc Jr is arrested in his pro trump plastered van after sending 13 mail bombs to prominent democratic figureheads.
10/25/2018: Gregory Bush kills two black people outside of a Kroger in Louisville Kentucky after failing to break into a black church to plan a massacre earlier in the day. He didn't shoot the arresting police officer because he claimed that Whites don't kill whites.
07/14/2018: Ronald Lee Kidwall is arrested after killing MeShon Cooper a 43 year old black woman in Kansas. Kidwall is a known member of the KKK and has pictures of himself draped in the confederate flag.
05/05/2018: Dustin Allen Hughes is arrested after making threatening calls to a local mosque claiming he's going to blow it up and kill the congregation.
02/14/2018: Nikolas Jacob Cruz shoots up the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High school killing seventeen and injuring more. Was known to make far right racist, antisemitic and homophobic comments and even Incels label him a hero.

These were all within the past year, but no politician or major news networks are talking about Right Wing terrorism.
What can be done about this? There's clearly an uptick in a sense of disenfranchised white men, but what is causing this? Mass migration by Muslim people? Obama? The internet? 4th wave feminism? All of the above?

I dunno, I saw Hasson, Bowers and Cruz all described as terrorists. And I have seen plenty of talk about right wing terrorism. But maybe that's just our differing perspectives.

Personally, I think this increase in white supremacist violence is because of an increase in the number of people who hold white supremacist attitudes, which is in turn at least partly because of anti-white racism becoming more mainstream. It's the same basic principle as Islamophobia turning Muslims to jihadist ideology.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/trump-new-zealand-white-identity-1.5059127

Suspect: Trump is "a symbol of renewed white identity". (But doesn't like him as a policymaker or leader.)

Trump: I have no idea what he said and what he did was horrible.


Trump needs to take the potential threat of white supremacist terrorism more seriously. Even if he's right about it being a handful of people that have "very serious problems", you don't need much to kill dozens of people. Just one person and enough ammo.

I'd argue you're wrong about the boogeyman of "anti-white racism" being more mainstream, but then it'd just lead into another tremendous argument where you storm off and quit the forum for a while, and go back to centrist wanking self-righteously in your own corner for a while. That somehow being ANYWHERE to the left of the designated safe center is a bad horrible thing and we should all be ashamed of ourselves for not falling over ourselves to center ourselves.
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: dpareja on March 16, 2019, 01:08:26 am
If any US President dares to suggest that right-wing white Christian terrorism is a problem, FOX News will be all over them screaming about how dare they, conservatives are perfectly nice people, don't tar them all with the same brush... but you have to say "radical Islamic terrorism"!
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: Kanzenkankaku on March 16, 2019, 06:11:11 am
This hit pretty close to home for me. New Zealand is my Nan's (RIP) homeland and they NEVER get terror attacks like this one. This is literally the first mass shooting in decades.

Please, if everyone here chips in even just a little to this campaign for the survivors and their families:
https://www.launchgood.com/project/support_for_the_families__victims_of_the_new_zealand_mosque_shootings#!/

The people of NZ need us even though we're a small niche little politics and religion discussion forum, they're almost at their goal. And make sure to cover payment for the payment processing fees so that the victims get as much out of it as possible.
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: Chaos Undivided on March 16, 2019, 03:51:07 pm
This hit pretty close to home for me. New Zealand is my Nan's (RIP) homeland and they NEVER get terror attacks like this one. This is literally the first mass shooting in decades.

Please, if everyone here chips in even just a little to this campaign for the survivors and their families:
https://www.launchgood.com/project/support_for_the_families__victims_of_the_new_zealand_mosque_shootings#!/

The people of NZ need us even though we're a small niche little politics and religion discussion forum, they're almost at their goal. And make sure to cover payment for the payment processing fees so that the victims get as much out of it as possible.

Thank you. I made a contribution.
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: Kanzenkankaku on March 17, 2019, 03:22:46 am
This hit pretty close to home for me. New Zealand is my Nan's (RIP) homeland and they NEVER get terror attacks like this one. This is literally the first mass shooting in decades.

Please, if everyone here chips in even just a little to this campaign for the survivors and their families:
https://www.launchgood.com/project/support_for_the_families__victims_of_the_new_zealand_mosque_shootings#!/

The people of NZ need us even though we're a small niche little politics and religion discussion forum, they're almost at their goal. And make sure to cover payment for the payment processing fees so that the victims get as much out of it as possible.

Thank you. I made a contribution.

$1,730,149 NZD from 31k+ contributors. Happy to report that it keeps raising. The original goal was met so now it keeps increasing every 100k.

Always remember the name Naeem Rashid. He was the heroic man who was seen trying to rush the shooter during the livestreamed part of the attack at Al Noor.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47593693

And Daoud Nabi, a man who helped refugees, and passed away protecting another person by using himself as a shield:
https://heavy.com/news/2019/03/daoud-nabi-mosque-victim-hero/
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: Askold on March 18, 2019, 09:09:18 am
The main suspect was active on several websites like 8Chan, Voat and Kiwifarms The last one is now in legal trouble because they refuse to help the police investigation: https://www.news.com.au/technology/online/website-kiwi-farms-refuses-to-surrender-data-linked-to-accused-christchurch-terrorist-brendan-tarrant/news-story/46d3c925ef84b24dde6194c42b3c2241

Quote
In an obscenity-laden email, Kiwi Farms founder Joshua Moon dismissed the plea by Detective Senior Sergeant John Michael as “a joke”, labelling New Zealand “a small, irrelevant island nation” and “s***hole country”.

I would expect nothing less from that pedophile.

Quote
“I don’t give a single solitary f**k what section 50 of your faggot laws say about sharing your email,” Moon ranted in the second email.

“F**k you and f**k your s***hole country, Kiwi Farms has nothing to do with New Zealand. “Our name is a pointed jab at some of the mushmouthed autistic people we make fun of. Absolutely nothing about our community is NZ oriented.

To his credit, Det Michael refused to bite, replying instead with a polite acknowledgment of Moon’s views.

“Hi Josh,” he wrote. “Appreciate your quick response. Will definitely consider what you have said. Regards, John.”

Because obviously in the aftermath of a horrible act of terrorism like this what the world really needs is people who act the very worst they can.
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: Art Vandelay on March 18, 2019, 09:34:13 am
At risk of going into tin foil hat territory, all of this right wing radicalisation does kind of remind of me of all the offence taken at The Last Jedi, often to the point of harassing the actors, and how it turns out that was all just a few fringe loonies being egged on by bots and paid shills. Not to mention, the influence they had in the 2016 US election. It makes me very strongly suspect the cause of this recent string of shootings is yet more bots and shills. In which case, maybe it's not just gun control but also strong regulation of social media that's called for. In fact, you could even argue that social media in its current state is a threat to national security.

Of course, I haven't the foggiest of what specifically should be done or how we should go about. Ah well, 'tis one of the great conundrums of our day, to be sure.
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: Id82 on March 18, 2019, 04:07:02 pm

I dunno, I saw Hasson, Bowers and Cruz all described as terrorists. And I have seen plenty of talk about right wing terrorism. But maybe that's just our differing perspectives.

Personally, I think this increase in white supremacist violence is because of an increase in the number of people who hold white supremacist attitudes, which is in turn at least partly because of anti-white racism becoming more mainstream. It's the same basic principle as Islamophobia turning Muslims to jihadist ideology.


Anti White Racism isn't becoming mainstream. It's white people reacting to Gays/Women/Black/Muslims/insert any other minority in here, asking to be treated equally. Equality can feel like oppression to the already privileged. When white people are told they have to accept people of different races moving into their country or neighborhoods, they feel like they're losing their land. When they're told they can't chase those people out of their neighborhoods, they feel like they're losing their power. When they're told these people don't want to be called Niggers/faggots/bitches/terrorists then they feel like their freedom of speech is being taken away. But this isn't racism.
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: ironbite on March 18, 2019, 04:21:13 pm
The main suspect was active on several websites like 8Chan, Voat and Kiwifarms The last one is now in legal trouble because they refuse to help the police investigation: https://www.news.com.au/technology/online/website-kiwi-farms-refuses-to-surrender-data-linked-to-accused-christchurch-terrorist-brendan-tarrant/news-story/46d3c925ef84b24dde6194c42b3c2241

Quote
In an obscenity-laden email, Kiwi Farms founder Joshua Moon dismissed the plea by Detective Senior Sergeant John Michael as “a joke”, labelling New Zealand “a small, irrelevant island nation” and “s***hole country”.

I would expect nothing less from that pedophile.

Quote
“I don’t give a single solitary f**k what section 50 of your faggot laws say about sharing your email,” Moon ranted in the second email.

“F**k you and f**k your s***hole country, Kiwi Farms has nothing to do with New Zealand. “Our name is a pointed jab at some of the mushmouthed autistic people we make fun of. Absolutely nothing about our community is NZ oriented.

To his credit, Det Michael refused to bite, replying instead with a polite acknowledgment of Moon’s views.

“Hi Josh,” he wrote. “Appreciate your quick response. Will definitely consider what you have said. Regards, John.”

Because obviously in the aftermath of a horrible act of terrorism like this what the world really needs is people who act the very worst they can.

God I can't wait for the New Zealand government to print out that email as exhibit A in this idiot's trial.

Ironbite-Trump doesn't give a shit about this mook and would throw him under the bus in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: Chaos Undivided on March 18, 2019, 09:26:19 pm
Not only is he an asshole, he's an idiot too. Why did he think that was even remotely a good idea?
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: niam2023 on March 18, 2019, 09:51:21 pm
Because he thinks Trump has his back.

But the moment New Zealand wants him extradited or anything, Trump'll just wash his hands of it and pretend he never heard of anyone named Joshua Moon.

That's what he does. Never does he EVER defend his friends. He just throws them to the wolves and claims they were coffee fetchers.
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: Kanzenkankaku on March 19, 2019, 06:55:32 am
I don't see anything in that article that says he posted on kiwifarms at all? It looks like the police wanted information on people who were discussing him and that it's mainly about the site hosting a copy of the video that he livestreamed during the attack, because the police want to take it down, all copies of it.

In other news of people continuing to show graphic terrorist footage, Channel 7 news in Australia aired a segment on TV about it where they showed the video to the perp's family and blamed Fortnite Battle Royal for his actions
https://twitter.com/ChampChong/status/1107511559062880260
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: dpareja on March 21, 2019, 02:22:21 pm
Meanwhile, New Zealand has already amended its gun laws to ban certain high-fire-rate weapons.

https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1819576527

Quote
CHRISTCHURCH, NZ—In the days following a violent rampage in east-central South Island, New Zealand in which a lone attacker killed fifty individuals, and seriously injured over three dozen others, citizens living in a country where this kind of mass killing almost never occurs reportedly concluded Thursday that there was a way to prevent the massacre from taking place. “This was a terrible tragedy, but these things shouldn't happen and there is something we can do to stop them,” said Auckland resident Samuel Wipper, echoing sentiments expressed by millions of individuals who reside in a nation where only one of the world’s deadliest mass shootings has occurred in the past 50 years and whose citizens are about as likely to die of gun violence as those of other developed nations. “It’s a shame, but what can we do? There really was something that could have kept this guy from snapping and killing a lot of people even if that’s what he really wanted.” At press time, residents of an economically advanced nation where no mass shootings had occurred in the past twenty years were referring to themselves and their situation as “hopeful.”

So I'm never going to write for the Onion, sue me.
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: Chaos Undivided on March 21, 2019, 08:07:37 pm
Meanwhile, New Zealand has already amended its gun laws to ban certain high-fire-rate weapons.

https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1819576527

Quote
CHRISTCHURCH, NZ—In the days following a violent rampage in east-central South Island, New Zealand in which a lone attacker killed fifty individuals, and seriously injured over three dozen others, citizens living in a country where this kind of mass killing almost never occurs reportedly concluded Thursday that there was a way to prevent the massacre from taking place. “This was a terrible tragedy, but these things shouldn't happen and there is something we can do to stop them,” said Auckland resident Samuel Wipper, echoing sentiments expressed by millions of individuals who reside in a nation where only one of the world’s deadliest mass shootings has occurred in the past 50 years and whose citizens are about as likely to die of gun violence as those of other developed nations. “It’s a shame, but what can we do? There really was something that could have kept this guy from snapping and killing a lot of people even if that’s what he really wanted.” At press time, residents of an economically advanced nation where no mass shootings had occurred in the past twenty years were referring to themselves and their situation as “hopeful.”

So I'm never going to write for the Onion, sue me.

I really don't think this is necessary, considering this is literally the first mass shooting in New Zealand in over twenty years. Why institute these bans because of something that hardly ever happens? Really, I think a better solution would be to deploy armed guards to protect mosques, much like what European countries have done with synagogues.
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: niam2023 on March 21, 2019, 08:09:50 pm
Because "Never Again".

This is why Australia went forward with awesome anti-gun legislation.
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: Chaos Undivided on March 21, 2019, 08:36:57 pm
Because "Never Again".

This is why Australia went forward with awesome anti-gun legislation.

Australia's anti-gun legislation is not "awesome". It's a miserable failure (https://reason.com/archives/2016/03/22/australias-gun-buyback-created-a-violent). And the claims that the 1996 laws stopped mass shootings... even by the strictest definition of mass shootings, that (https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/adelaide-bikie-violence-four-unsolved-highprofile-murder-cases/news-story/e73eabd2b168c18beb99f73b8a97fc06?nk=ea39fdb59555d17688e5b13a466bdd07-1553214680) isn't (https://www.smh.com.au/national/two-shot-dead-five-wounded-at-monash-uni-20021021-gdfqur.html) true (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-11/seven-people-found-dead-in-margaret-river-murder-suicide/9751482). Why do you think results across the Trench will be any better?
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: Art Vandelay on March 21, 2019, 09:23:41 pm
Because "Never Again".

This is why Australia went forward with awesome anti-gun legislation.

Australia's anti-gun legislation is not "awesome". It's a miserable failure (https://reason.com/archives/2016/03/22/australias-gun-buyback-created-a-violent). And the claims that the 1996 laws stopped mass shootings... even by the strictest definition of mass shootings, that (https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/adelaide-bikie-violence-four-unsolved-highprofile-murder-cases/news-story/e73eabd2b168c18beb99f73b8a97fc06?nk=ea39fdb59555d17688e5b13a466bdd07-1553214680) isn't (https://www.smh.com.au/national/two-shot-dead-five-wounded-at-monash-uni-20021021-gdfqur.html) true (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-11/seven-people-found-dead-in-margaret-river-murder-suicide/9751482). Why do you think results across the Trench will be any better?
Obviously, it's not perfect. It doesn't need to be perfect, though, it just has to be better than the alternative. Which it very much is. Here, we go years between shootings. Even longer between shootings that aren't gang related scuffles where innocents are left unscathed. Meanwhile, over in your Fatherland, schools get shot up on a monthly, sometimes even fortnightly, basis.

I'm sure you can see why some would prefer our system.
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: niam2023 on March 21, 2019, 10:20:19 pm
Get ready for him to blither about how if its not perfect why bother having it at all.
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: Chaos Undivided on March 21, 2019, 10:32:20 pm
Because "Never Again".

This is why Australia went forward with awesome anti-gun legislation.

Australia's anti-gun legislation is not "awesome". It's a miserable failure (https://reason.com/archives/2016/03/22/australias-gun-buyback-created-a-violent). And the claims that the 1996 laws stopped mass shootings... even by the strictest definition of mass shootings, that (https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/adelaide-bikie-violence-four-unsolved-highprofile-murder-cases/news-story/e73eabd2b168c18beb99f73b8a97fc06?nk=ea39fdb59555d17688e5b13a466bdd07-1553214680) isn't (https://www.smh.com.au/national/two-shot-dead-five-wounded-at-monash-uni-20021021-gdfqur.html) true (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-11/seven-people-found-dead-in-margaret-river-murder-suicide/9751482). Why do you think results across the Trench will be any better?
Obviously, it's not perfect. It doesn't need to be perfect, though, it just has to be better than the alternative. Which it very much is. Here, we go years between shootings. Even longer between shootings that aren't gang related scuffles where innocents are left unscathed. Meanwhile, over in your Fatherland, schools get shot up on a monthly, sometimes even fortnightly, basis.

I'm sure you can see why some would prefer our system.

Our system works better than you think. It's true that the United States has many more mass shootings than the rest of the developed world... but that's at least partly a consequence of having the largest population by far. When you look at things on a per capita basis, we don't even crack the top ten in mass shooting deaths (https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/sorry-despite-gun-control-advocates-claims-u-s-isnt-the-worst-country-for-mass-shootings/).
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: niam2023 on March 21, 2019, 10:39:17 pm
That is shifting the goalpost.

The reality is that Australia's laws put years between shootings, whereas American "gunlaws" basically enable mass shootings.
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: Chaos Undivided on March 21, 2019, 11:08:21 pm
That is shifting the goalpost.

The reality is that Australia's laws put years between shootings, whereas American "gunlaws" basically enable mass shootings.

Oh yeah, I'm sure America having more than ten times Australia's population has nothing to do with it. /s

And could you please explain how that's moving the goalposts? I was directly responding to a statement that he made, pointing out that, on a per capita basis, America has fewer mass shootings and fewer deaths in mass shootings than many European countries. This includes countries like France that have strict laws regarding gun ownership. So if our gun laws "basically enable mass shootings", what does that say about French gun laws? Or Serbian or Macedonian gun laws, for that matter. I would have liked to say where Australia was on the list, but unfortunately, it wasn't included in the study (https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/comparing-death-rates-from-mass-public-shootings-in-the-us-and-europe/).
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: davedan on March 21, 2019, 11:44:51 pm
CU - the three examples you had of mass shootings were one crime related dispute and one domestic violence dispute.  The largest number of dead being 7 (all sadly related). No instances of someone getting an AR-15 and shooting more than 10 people. Also given Norway's population and Anders Brevik shooting 98 people how many other mass shootings has Norway had?

Australia had been on a trend of about one mass shooting per year until the gun reforms after Port Arthur. Even with low compliance on the buyback it is very hard to get guns. So far as only career criminals having guns, well I don't mind because it's not career criminals who tend to go postal. Indeed it is in the criminal interest to use guns as little as possible.

No the people who we are worried about with mass shootings are the people who look normal until all of a sudden they lose it and start shooting up a school, a nightclub or vegas. The only way to reduce offenses by these people is to deny the guns. Now they may instead use a knife or use their cars. Well I would much rather that. Cars are inherently more useful than guns and you need a license for them. Knives are dangerous but it is much harder to kill 50 people with a knife. Moreover I think you'll find that knives are often illegal even in places where you can open carry.

Really the US obsession is part of their crypto-white supremacy.
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: Skybison on March 22, 2019, 02:34:05 am
The first thing that needs to be said here is that it is a huge problem to look at the question of gun control based around mass shootings.  Public Mass Shootings Rampages are rare events that feel common because they get lots of attention from the media.  In truth, family massacres heavily outnumber mass killings of strangers, and all forms of multicide (mass murder, spree killers, serial killers, terrorists) make up only a small proportion of homicides, less then 5%.  The vast majority of homicides come from drunked barfights, family squables, domestic abuse cases and business disputes between drug dealers.  To determine if the american way is effective we shouldn't only look at mass shootings but per capita homicide rates in general.  Among the rich western democracies we've got (as of 2016):

Norway: 0.51 per 100 000
Spain: 0.63
Italy: 0.67
Ireland: 0.80
Australia: 0.94
Sweden: 1.08
Germany: 1.18
UK: 1.20
France: 1.35
Finland: 1.42
Canada: 1.68
USA: 5.35

Source The United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime
https://dataunodc.un.org/crime/intentional-homicide-victims

In short you are almost six times as likely to be murdered in the USA then you are in Australia.  Yes there are other factors besides just the guns but overall the american system is clearly far inferior at preventing homicide then other rich western democracies


Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: dpareja on March 22, 2019, 02:49:36 am
Meanwhile, New Zealand has already amended its gun laws to ban certain high-fire-rate weapons.

https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1819576527

Quote
CHRISTCHURCH, NZ—In the days following a violent rampage in east-central South Island, New Zealand in which a lone attacker killed fifty individuals, and seriously injured over three dozen others, citizens living in a country where this kind of mass killing almost never occurs reportedly concluded Thursday that there was a way to prevent the massacre from taking place. “This was a terrible tragedy, but these things shouldn't happen and there is something we can do to stop them,” said Auckland resident Samuel Wipper, echoing sentiments expressed by millions of individuals who reside in a nation where only one of the world’s deadliest mass shootings has occurred in the past 50 years and whose citizens are about as likely to die of gun violence as those of other developed nations. “It’s a shame, but what can we do? There really was something that could have kept this guy from snapping and killing a lot of people even if that’s what he really wanted.” At press time, residents of an economically advanced nation where no mass shootings had occurred in the past twenty years were referring to themselves and their situation as “hopeful.”

So I'm never going to write for the Onion, sue me.

I really don't think this is necessary, considering this is literally the first mass shooting in New Zealand in over twenty years. Why institute these bans because of something that hardly ever happens? Really, I think a better solution would be to deploy armed guards to protect mosques, much like what European countries have done with synagogues.

And then you're risking said armed guards snapping and shooting up a place.

As is so often pointed out, if more guns made a country safer, the US would be the safest country in the world. But it isn't.
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: Skybison on March 22, 2019, 02:58:25 am
(https://rackjite.com/wp-content/uploads/gunfreedom.jpg)
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: RavynousHunter on March 22, 2019, 11:20:44 am
(https://rackjite.com/wp-content/uploads/gunfreedom.jpg)

STORY TIME, MOTHERFUCKERS.

Okay, so I went to high school in the "prestigious" Little Rock Central High School.  You know, the one that crows incessantly about how its historic because it was the last to integrate, but let's just totally gloss over that because MUH LITTLE ROCK NINE.

The reality was that the place was barely better than a festering shitheap.  This school was, to put it bluntly, the last-choice school for kids that couldn't get into better ones or whose parents couldn't afford to drive them to a better one.  Now, you might not associate Little Rock, Arkansas with gang problems, but lemme tell ya...our 'hoods might not be as populous as those in, say, south-central LA, but it gets plenty fucking violent.  As in "I hear gunshots about 2-3 times a month" violent.  Given that Central High was the last choice for everyone, it attracted a lot of those kinds of people.  Ya know, gangbangers.

Fights were frequent enough that our school had not only security guards armed with batons and mace, but police officers armed with actual, loaded firearms.  Yes, "officers," as in more than one.  We never had a problem with gun violence during my time there, but let's just say that not all the incidences were just fistfights.

This was in a school that had random scans using portable metal detectors ("wands") and a "clear or mesh" rule for backpacks.

The kicker?  The school was a literal haven for low-grade drug dealers and there were several spots around the school where, if one were so inclined, they could get a handy or a beej for a few dollars.  I knew several of these dealers, and they sold everything from weed to oxycontin.  Several students came into class absolutely reeking of weed.  None of this was ever punished unless the actual, armed police officers caught you.

The school wasn't safer or cleaner because of all the searches and armed politzei and security cameras everywhere but the classrooms and shitters.  It was a seedy, disgusting shithole with a gleaming facade.  A gilded turd.
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: Chaos Undivided on March 30, 2019, 10:12:26 pm
In other news, I've seen some debate about whether the shooter was actually far-right, since he expressed environmentalist and anti-capitalist sentiments in his manifesto. While I haven't read it myself, at least not yet, I'd just like to remind these people that the Nazis were critical of capitalism (considering it one of the methods the Jews used to oppress Germans, surprise surprise), as well as pretty big on animal welfare and protecting the environment.

Are there any Kiwis on this board, btw? I'm asking because I don't wanna accidentally get somebody arrested.
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: niam2023 on March 30, 2019, 10:40:44 pm
Yes, he was far right - just because he thought about animals maybe once or twice and talked about the environment does not overwrite you know, slaughtering Muslims because he's a shitheaded racist. It seems you're more interested in possible ways to divorce the far right from this guy.

Its the same kind of thought that leads into "he's a crisis actor!" and "this person is an agent provocateur."
Title: Re: Far-Right Terrorist Attacks in New Zealand
Post by: Chaos Undivided on March 30, 2019, 11:18:06 pm
Yes, he was far right - just because he thought about animals maybe once or twice and talked about the environment does not overwrite you know, slaughtering Muslims because he's a shitheaded racist. It seems you're more interested in possible ways to divorce the far right from this guy.

Its the same kind of thought that leads into "he's a crisis actor!" and "this person is an agent provocateur."

I was dismissing those theories. Or were you not addressing me?