Author Topic: Abortion graph discussion  (Read 8742 times)

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Offline Quasirodent

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Abortion graph discussion
« on: October 16, 2013, 01:32:42 pm »
After seeing this graphic,  I got to wondering how the folks here weigh in on the topic, beyond a simple yes/no vote.



Do you think there are good reasons to deny a woman an abortion?  Should these reasons be applied case-by-case or as a rule?

My opinion is that before the 4th month, abortions should be unrestricted - but after that, there are two considerations:  Firstly, that as the fetus grows, the procedure becomes more traumatizing and dangerous.  And secondly, I do not think anyone is totally sure when the fetus starts thinking and feeling things like a baby does.  I am aware that early-term embryos are not people, and I have no problem with terminating a lump of cells that doesn't have any awareness.  But there's no doubt in my mind that an infant starts feeling and reacting to stimulus while in the womb.  It has brain activity and responds to its mother before it is born.  And if we know that it has those traits, killing it would be like killing a newborn infant.  Which is to say, still justifiable if the mother's life is endangered and she cannot continue carrying the pregnancy, but not considered anything less than terminating a budding sentience.
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Offline Cataclysm

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Re: Abortion graph discussion
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2013, 01:37:29 pm »
There's a fuzzy line between there. Even if a fetus becomes 'aware' it still only has a fraction of the brain activity of an infant. Killing it would be not much different than killing rats that invade your home.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Abortion graph discussion
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2013, 01:53:45 pm »
Do you think there are good reasons to deny a woman an abortion?  Should these reasons be applied case-by-case or as a rule?
I tend to the view that there should be a time limit determined by the point at which the foetus is able to survive outside of a pregnant woman. I remain undecided on the amount of medical support that may be factored in, but if it's non-zero the time limit would have to be reviewed periodically as medical technology changes.

The down-side to this view is the question of how an exact time limit of this kind is determined.

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My opinion is that before the 4th month, abortions should be unrestricted - ...
Agreed, except that I see nothing special about the 4th month.

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... but after that, there are two considerations:  Firstly, that as the fetus grows, the procedure becomes more traumatizing and dangerous.
True, but I would guess that if it's done properly it's always less traumatic and less dangerous than carrying the foetus to term or undergoing an uncontrolled late-term miscarriage.

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  And secondly, I do not think anyone is totally sure when the fetus starts thinking and feeling things like a baby does.
Also true. But do we know even that a newborn is sentient?

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... But there's no doubt in my mind that an infant starts feeling and reacting to stimulus while in the womb.  It has brain activity and responds to its mother before it is born.  And if we know that it has those traits, killing it would be like killing a newborn infant.  Which is to say, still justifiable if the mother's life is endangered and she cannot continue carrying the pregnancy, but not considered anything less than terminating a budding sentience.
I don't see how this follows. Perhaps you're conflating "feelings" meaning sophisticated emotions with "feelings" meaning tactile sensation? All animals and maybe in some sense all living things experience the former, but we do not call them all sentient - budding or otherwise.

Offline mellenORL

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Re: Abortion graph discussion
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2013, 02:04:16 pm »
Does any one here know if a medical scanning device (MRI, PET, or w/e) study of developing fetal brain activity has been accomplished yet, or if any such study is in progress or being planned? It would be very helpful to know. But, regardless, fetal brain structure development is understood, and extrapolating current knowledge of brain structures and functions can be applied to estimate when a developing fetus can perhaps become self aware, and be capable of any mental suffering from pain if not properly anesthetized prior to an abortion.

That the brain structures exist does not necessarily prove they are functioning much, if at all yet, which is true to various degrees for fetal lungs, kidneys, etc. during the stages of development. A fetal brain activity study would really be needed to erase these uncertainties.
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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Abortion graph discussion
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2013, 04:33:48 pm »
Do you think there are good reasons to deny a woman an abortion?  Should these reasons be applied case-by-case or as a rule?
I tend to the view that there should be a time limit determined by the point at which the foetus is able to survive outside of a pregnant woman.

My views are similar.

I think sentience of the foetus is not the dominating concern. Rather, it's right to bodily autonomy. As it is, I support a person's legal right to refuse the use of their organs to anyone else, be they a nonsentient embryo or a fully developed adult. As such, you should be able to say "no, I don't wish to have this foetus using my uterus anymore" and have it removed, regardless of sentience. Obviously it's not quite so simple as "well, pull it out and let it survive if it can"; if, for example, one could guarantee a much greater chance of survival by waiting a short amount of time, there would be an argument for waiting that short time before removal, or things like that. As usual, there are a thousand possible complications. But the basic principle still seems to me to be: If it can't survive on its own, and the mother doesn't wish it to be a part of her body, the law should recognise her right to abort. If it can survive, then remove it and try to keep it alive. For the intermediate cases, well, I don't have enough expertise on the matter to say what would be reasonable.

As an aside:
I do think that sentience is ethically relevant, and the individual person should take it into consideration when deciding to abort. But the ethics of abortion is a ridiculously complicated matter with a shitload of possibly-relevant circumstances which I think are best weighed the individual's conscience rather than by legislation.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 04:35:56 pm by Sigmaleph »
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Offline Quasirodent

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Re: Abortion graph discussion
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2013, 04:49:36 pm »
Do you think there are good reasons to deny a woman an abortion?  Should these reasons be applied case-by-case or as a rule?
I tend to the view that there should be a time limit determined by the point at which the foetus is able to survive outside of a pregnant woman. I remain undecided on the amount of medical support that may be factored in, but if it's non-zero the time limit would have to be reviewed periodically as medical technology changes.

The down-side to this view is the question of how an exact time limit of this kind is determined.

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My opinion is that before the 4th month, abortions should be unrestricted - ...
Agreed, except that I see nothing special about the 4th month.

The 4th month is supposedly a rough guess at when the nervous system and brain connect, so it could possibly feel pain at that point.  There's too much 'I don't know' for a better guess, so I'm going the conservative route with that.

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... but after that, there are two considerations:  Firstly, that as the fetus grows, the procedure becomes more traumatizing and dangerous.
True, but I would guess that if it's done properly it's always less traumatic and less dangerous than carrying the foetus to term or undergoing an uncontrolled late-term miscarriage.

I'd have to see the studies on that, as I'm under the impression that a mid-late term abortion is more dangerous than carrying.  At this point I think it'd be a case-by-case situation to see if the person in question would be better off aborting or carrying, and then they'd have to be informed, and their wishes taken into consideration.

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  And secondly, I do not think anyone is totally sure when the fetus starts thinking and feeling things like a baby does.
Also true. But do we know even that a newborn is sentient?

I don't know, but I believe they are at least as aware as, say, a dog.  People can form memories as newborns, they feel emotions, and I see them as human beings.

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... But there's no doubt in my mind that an infant starts feeling and reacting to stimulus while in the womb.  It has brain activity and responds to its mother before it is born.  And if we know that it has those traits, killing it would be like killing a newborn infant.  Which is to say, still justifiable if the mother's life is endangered and she cannot continue carrying the pregnancy, but not considered anything less than terminating a budding sentience.
I don't see how this follows. Perhaps you're conflating "feelings" meaning sophisticated emotions with "feelings" meaning tactile sensation? All animals and maybe in some sense all living things experience the former, but we do not call them all sentient - budding or otherwise.

I meant feeling as in tactile stimulation.  But it also responds to the mother's mood, what she eats, the music she listens to, the tone of her voice, and other things going on around her.

I don't know for certain when an infant or a fetus becomes sentient, but I think, much like 'innocent until proven guilty', as empathic beings, we should err on the side of caution and assume that an infant that shows signs of awareness could have at least some hint of sentience.

I have no problem with comparing an unborn 6 month old fetus to a cat or a guinea pig.  But consider the outrage sparked when someone has their pet put to death because they don't want it anymore.   How is killing a dog because it's a burden any different than killing a fetus with the mental capacity of a dog for the same reason?

All that being said, if a woman is in her 5th or later month of pregnancy, and however it happens, a decision not to abort is reached, we as a society should provide her with guilt-free surrender options, counseling, financial aid and postpartum medical care.  And we need to provide the child with the best chance of going to an adoptive family.  Most importantly, we need to provide our children and teens with better reproductive health care, non-celebacy-based sexual education, contraceptives, guilt-free and shame-free counseling, and access to early testing and termination so that the question about late-term abortion is ALMOST NEVER ASKED in the first place.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 04:51:23 pm by Quasirodent »
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Offline Sleepy

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Re: Abortion graph discussion
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2013, 05:36:15 pm »
I'd have to see the studies on that, as I'm under the impression that a mid-late term abortion is more dangerous than carrying.  At this point I think it'd be a case-by-case situation to see if the person in question would be better off aborting or carrying, and then they'd have to be informed, and their wishes taken into consideration.

Before 20 weeks, the risk of death from childbirth is far greater than the risk of death from abortion. After that, it's roughly the same.

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Re: Abortion graph discussion
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2013, 05:45:02 pm »
Personally, I agree that there should be limits on abortion. I think the state should restrict abortions done after the child's second birthday and no sooner.

But if you're gonna abort this late in the pregnancy, the best method is a hammer to the back of the head.

Offline largeham

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Re: Abortion graph discussion
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2013, 06:10:27 pm »
Women should have access to abortions whenever and for whatever reason.  Also, IIRC, the rate of abortions doesn't drop when they become illegal, but the number of women who die from the procedure does.

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Offline kefkaownsall

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Re: Abortion graph discussion
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2013, 06:34:19 pm »
The thing is if an abortion is banned then women go get them via less safe methods

Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: Abortion graph discussion
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2013, 06:39:11 pm »
I believe that abortions should be legal at any point in pregnancy before birth, probably regardless of whether the fetus feels pain or not. (I personally suspect that fetuses have some reflex actions, but how much they actually experience before being born is unknown, and there needs to be damn good proof of that before we start taking other people's bodily autonomy away.) It's not like any of us remember being sentient immediately after own birth, so how would we remember being sentient before then?

I know there are some people who suggest that abortions should be always legal if they are the result of rape or incest, but what does that mean for the pregnant person who has to prove that they were "legitimately raped" or a victim of incest before they get an abortion? The rape would have to be proven in a court of law (which is stressful, time-consuming, and expensive to victims). Also, it would probably result in a number of people who became pregnant for other reasons making false rape claims in order to get abortions. The logistics of putting this exemption into practice are simply asinine.

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Offline Cataclysm

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Re: Abortion graph discussion
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2013, 07:21:40 pm »
Also, IIRC, the rate of abortions doesn't drop when they become illegal, but the number of women who die from the procedure does.

That's good! They deserve to die for being evil murderous nazis! /fundie
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Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: Abortion graph discussion
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2013, 08:20:33 pm »
Also, IIRC, the rate of abortions doesn't drop when they become illegal, but the number of women who die from the procedure does.

That's good! They deserve to die for being evil murderous nazis! /fundie

I remember reading something by a nutty rabbi who said that the statistics of women dying from back-alley abortions were all entirely fabricated by the "abortionist movement."
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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Abortion graph discussion
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2013, 08:24:24 pm »
My views are pretty simple, as is my answer: yes, abortion should be legal in all cases.  Why?  If you want something to stop feeding off your body to sustain itself, then you have every right to put a stop to it.  Fetuses are parasitic in nature, so they easily qualify.  Think about it: they consume part of the nutrients the mother eats, and they give nothing positive in return whilst in utero, outside warm fuzzies and shit.  In fact, they give many negative things like morning sickness and rapid, powerful hormonal shifts.

However, I would also vote for making adoption a simpler process, and one that's got good standards and practices in place to keep the insane, Bible-thumping types that don't like to "spare the rod" out of the system for good so they don't hurt any kids that might otherwise come their way.  It could also do with being made into an entirely federal agency, none of this "state's rights" bullshit here.  A kid in Georgia has the same basic needs as a kid in Nebraska, there's no need for 50 different adoption systems.  Its just useless bloat, fat to be trimmed.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Abortion graph discussion
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2013, 08:42:21 pm »
I'm a guy so my opinion doesn't shouldn't matter too much, but...

I think abortion should be legal in all cases, even if the fetus is sentient.  I don't like abortion when it reaches that stage, but I recognize now that there are many factors that are important to consider (chiefly, if you realize that you can't support a baby at that late stage, or you've been unable to get an abortion up to that point, then it's far better for the baby to be aborted than it would be for it to end up in the currently flawed foster system) and honestly, it's not my body, it's not my business.

Abortion is a surgery most of the time, and I can't think of anyone who would want to get pregnant just so they can have an abortion.  All that talk about frivolous abortion tends to be nonsense.
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