Author Topic: Worst of Social Justice  (Read 1550900 times)

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Offline davedan

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #7755 on: November 25, 2015, 06:26:40 pm »
Are you really so disingenuous that you use that link to show feminists campaigning against being punished equally under the law

Just to be clear this link: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-13666066

Those mad out of control feminists like - the Chief Constable of Devon and Cornwall Police Stephen Otter?

Did you read that link? If you did then you are a liar as your description was maliciously inaccurate. Its about a Ministry of Justice taskforce to redirect short term (under a year) prison sentences for women, mainly it would seem to save the UK government money and because studies have proven that redirection rather than prison is more effective in reducing recidivism.

And do you know who pushed for these closings?  The Women's Justice Taskforce.

Moreover, the fact that they're only doing this for women really sticks in my craw.

Let me also ask you this: do you want women like Rosemary West out of prison?

Your pants have just caught fire. The Women's Justice Taskforce was an organisation established by the Ministry of Justice with such crusading feminists as the aforementioned Chief Constable of Devon and Cornwall. It was not a feminist organisation.

As I said it was for women whose sentences are less than one year. I have no idea who Rosemary West is but the taskforce has nothing to do with women who commit heinous offences such as murder who will be serving sentences substantially in excess of one year. It is to do with minor offences with sentences of less than a year which they have found in the UK make up a disproportionate amount of the female prison population. By creating diversion programs and avoiding sentences of imprisonment for women, who are sentenced for less than one year of actual custody, they can vastly reduce the expense of dealing with them (by enabling them to close women's prisons) and have reduced recidivism rates.

Women who commit serious offences will still be in prison but they are more likely to be housed in a contained part of a prison otherwise for men.

There are diversionary programs for men (and programs that are diversionary by offence, eg drug diversions) but given that the incarcerated population of women has a different make up than the incarcerated population of men and for different offences it makes sense to have programs specifically tailored for women for the benefit of the country, in particular UK taxpayers.

The fact that you read that article and continue to make these assertions means you are either:
a) thick, I mean really thick unable to comprehend the written english language;
b) deliberately being misleading so that you can pretend feminists are bad.

There may be other permutations or options but you must be one of those two things.

I hope you keep a firebucket next to you when you type.

Offline SCarpelan

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #7756 on: November 25, 2015, 07:19:32 pm »
For the same reason we have Earth Day: there should be a day when we can focus on these issues.

Weak metaphor. I've already shown how IMD is silly because it doesn't really do much. Comparing it to a day that brings attention to legitimate environmental concerns when half this country thinks global warming is a lie is a considerable difference that highlights what I'm saying. Earth Day is necessary because people are too fucking stupid. IMD isn't necessary for any comparable threat to men or any awareness reasons.
Nope. You have asserted it, not shown it. I agree that the problems that fit the patriarchal masculinity are dealt with and don't need any special attention. The problems that don't fit in this model are too often dismissed.

I'll quote a PhD who teaches gender history and masculinity studies in Åbo Akademi (a Swedish language university in Turku). He was interviewed (in Finnish) about the significance of Men's Day.

Quote from: Anders Ahlbäck
It's difficult for a man to be an equal parent with a woman. Men still are secondary when it comes to parenting and almost all the other problems with equality follow from this. One reason for it is the wage inequality.
...
The society still has a strong view that motherhood is something more special than fatherhood.
...
The couples think they make these choices voluntarily but it's funny that 95% make the same choice. There definitely are strong cultural and structural factors in the background.

(click to show/hide)

Ahlbäck also brought up a big problem particular to the Finnish society: male-only mandatory armed service. The armed service has a huge cultural importance and I think that's why the older generations usually dismiss outright any gender-based criticism by the feminists and MRAs of the younger generation.

The third issue Ahlbäck brings up are the problems with suicide, homelessness unemployment and other social problems. He points out that gender and the problems with masculinity are one of the causes for these issues.

So, yeah. This interview was my main view to the Men's Day since it was the one I mostly saw linked by both feminists and MRAs. Since it brought up precisely the kind of points Men's Day discussion should bring IMO, McIntosh's dismissal annoyed me.

Offline mellenORL

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #7757 on: November 25, 2015, 09:09:53 pm »
(click to show/hide)
The fact that you read that article and continue to make these assertions means you are either:
a) thick, I mean really thick unable to comprehend the written english language;
b) deliberately being misleading so that you can pretend feminists are bad.

There may be other permutations or options but you must be one of those two things.

I hope you keep a firebucket next to you when you type.
[/davedan]

The simple explanation is that UP only reads headlines, and then maybe the first couple sentences. He did not read jack shit when he whipped out, "Yah, ya know who did dat? Da Women's Justice Harpy Brigade! Nyah!!11!" Extra points of stupidity for automatically dismissing any organization with the word "justice" and "women" in it's title; must be a bunch of bitches with purple hair.
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #7758 on: November 25, 2015, 09:24:20 pm »

Okay, yeah, I was wrong about what he said.  However, for many of those issues where the patriarchy plays a role, there are also other factors involved.  For example, British feminists have fought against equal punishment under the law:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-13666066

1. Good you admit you were wrong. Do that more often.
2. Those ebil british feminists. It's tangential. You were wrong about McIntosh and you were wrong about what I said. Thus, I'm not even opening the link because it is trying to begin a new argument that I don't care about.

Okay, we'll ignore them for the moment.

Are they using instances or individuals?  Because that makes a huge difference.

1. No it doesn't, and if it does, then please enlighten me as to how.

Yes, it does, for reasons I've already explained.

2. This really just seems like you goal post shifting from "this MAY not be true" to "okay, whatever, but what about this."

Is there something wrong with asking how data is gathered?

You're the one who brought it up.

Ah, but I did not bring up manspreading to prove the truth of the assertion. Instead, I brought it up as something that may have some credence to it that gets considerably more scrutiny than most silly men's issues, such as IMD.

I really hope I'm misunderstanding you, and you don't actually think manspreading is a bigger issue than suicide.

Mind giving a source?

Google, have you heard of it? How about this cite that shows that in some instances, stay at home dads get preference over working mom's. Or this one that shows that 91% of child custody decisions are made with no court involvement and tend to award the mother custody. Further, according to Phyllis Chesler's book, "Mothers on Trial," when fathers do challenge women for custody, they win 50-70% of the time, even if the father is abusive or drug-dependent. A large reason for this is courts focus on "the best interests of the child" and income is a kind of important. Damn pay gap.

Well, according to this study, the mother gets sole or primary custody 58.7% of the time.  Fathers only get it 8.9% of the time.

As for the pay gap, while it's not an outright myth, it's often misunderstood.

Again, I'd like a source.

Fuck you with a tire iron. I gave you a source last time we debated this, and you ignored my source so that you could continue to act like you were right. I'm not wasting my time to find it for you.

Well, I'm sure you wouldn't object if I gave mine:

http://www.evawintl.org/images/uploads/BasicDataFindings_12-07-09.pdf

According to this study, 15.6 of reports can reliably be determined as false.

Again, non-issue.


Tell that to Phi Kappa Psi.

Yeah, pesky thing about a crime that is primarily committed by men against women is that when false accusations do come up, they tend to be directed at men. That doesn't make false rape allegations a male problem, that makes rape a female problem that men collaterally feel an effect of.

Did you know that there's evidence to suggest that women rape men at about the same rate that men rape women?

http://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers/

Child support?


Let's start with one of the most grotesque: rape victims having to pay child support to care for their rape babies.

In Hermesmann v. Seyer, Colleen Hermesmann successfully argued that a woman is entitled to sue the father of her child for child support, even if conception occurred as a result of a criminal act committed by the woman.  This has been used as a precedent.  Repeatedly.

I looked up that case. To say it has been "used as precedent. Repeatedly." is a bald-face lie. It is still the law in Kansas, to be sure. But the case has been cited 109 times according to westlaw, 69 of which are secondary sources: law journals and other academic work (which looks to be very critical of the result). The portion relevant has been cited by 4 courts, three of which rejected it's logic. One court in Delaware in an unpublished opinion upheld it, finding that a mother who was a victim of an incestuous rape had a common law duty to provide for the resulting child when the father/ her brother had custody.

But I'm not here to play oppression olympics. Fact is, courts aren't perfect, some of them make mistakes. Some mistakes are terrible. Jim Crow for example. However, I do not see this as a male problem, but instead as part of a larger problem in which courts grant rapists parental rights. In something like 22 states, a rapist can rape a woman, and retain custody. Courts often rely on case precedence, and when they extend these rights to male rapists, they set the stage for the same outcome for female rapists.

Could I have a source?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 09:45:51 pm by Ultimate Paragon »

Offline The_Queen

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #7759 on: November 25, 2015, 09:58:35 pm »
Nope. You have asserted it, not shown it. I agree that the problems that fit the patriarchal masculinity are dealt with and don't need any special attention. The problems that don't fit in this model are too often dismissed.

Not quite. I went with shown because after I asserted it, nobody provided a solid rebuttal. Ravvy said that silly things are often present in society, but that didn't address my underlying contentions, and even accepted my premise (that men's day was silly) by contrasting it to other traditions. Paragon made a few strawmen and bad arguments, but no body else chimed in.

Quote
So, yeah. This interview was my main view to the Men's Day since it was the one I mostly saw linked by both feminists and MRAs. Since it brought up precisely the kind of points Men's Day discussion should bring IMO, McIntosh's dismissal annoyed me.

Two things. First, I never tried to diminish any problems that men face, I've simply been saying that an international men's day is superfluous to solving the problem. It's not like an "Autism day" to showcase the struggles of people with autism. Or an "Earth Day" to try to convince idiots that global warming is real. Even those men's issues that are a result of patriarchy, very few want to address them. I just think the whole notion is a tad silly. I think the professor makes good points, albeit most of them do stem from patriarchy; however, I am not trying to argue those. I'm not even trying to argue IMD, I got dragged into it because I casually stated my opinion when pointing out that McIntosh wasn't an SJW.

Second, I am sorry that you got annoyed that McIntosh (as well as myself) does not support IMD. But, my overall point is that the quote shouldn't be here because failure to support IMD does not equate with SJW.
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Offline davedan

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #7760 on: November 25, 2015, 10:44:40 pm »
Personally I am getting fucking annoyed with the use of the term SJW as a derogatory term. Striving for social justice has to be a commendable goal. People may get carried away with how they do it but otherwise aren't you actually saying you want to preserve social inequality?

Offline The_Queen

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #7761 on: November 25, 2015, 10:47:52 pm »
I really hope I'm misunderstanding you, and you don't actually think manspreading is a bigger issue than suicide.

You're a fucking idiot. I never said that and you know. I simply stated that "men's issues" as a whole tend to get more credence than when women object to social phenomenon.

Well, according to this study, the mother gets sole or primary custody 58.7% of the time.  Fathers only get it 8.9% of the time.

Fuck me... I need everclear. No, literally, I took a shot of it because this is too much stupid for me to handle at once.

First, read your fucking source before making someone else read it. First page it says

Quote
Over time, state placement laws have moved from a regime in which placement with the mother was the explicit preference (through most of the past century), through a period in which placement laws tended to be gender-neutral, to the present, where many states have made sharing
placement of the children between the divorcing parents the preferred option (Buehler and Gerard, 1995).

Which is exactly what I said a few posts ago, that my experience working for a judge indicated that modern child custody determinations were more gender-neutral.

Second

Quote
Several researchers (Seltzer, 1990; Fox and Kelly, 1995; Christiansen, Dahl, and Rettig, 1990) found that mother-sole placement accounted for over 80 percent of arrangements in various Upper Midwestern states in the mid-1980s; father-sole placement accounted for about 10 percent of cases, and joint placement arrangements accounted for only 2–6 percent of cases. Cancian and Meyer (1998) found that from 1986 to 1994 in Wisconsin the rate of mother-sole placement in divorce judgments fell from just over 80 percent to 74 percent, while joint placement rose from 7 percent to 14 percent. They also found that during this period, shared placement was more likely in cases with higher parental income, when the mother had previously been married, or when the mother was younger. They also found that in cases where the father had legal representation but the mother did not, shared placement or father-sole placement was more likely, but if only the mother had an attorney, then mother-sole placement was the more likely outcome.

Now, there are several things going on here. Look at the first sentence. It states that mothers get custody about 80% of the time. Now, if you read my source, you would know that 91% of custody hearings DO NOT go to court, but are decided by the parents, with the mother getting custody most of the time. So the 80% figure is intentionally misleading for you to cite to.

Second, look at how determinative factors like income and legal representation are.

Third, when it says that in "divorce proceedings" custody was reduced from 80% to 74%, that is another misnomer. In divorce proceedings, the judge assigns a parent to handle the child until a custody hearing can take place at a later date. Which my cite to Chesler shows that men win more often when contested in court.

So, the portions that look like they support your side do not, but actually reinforce mine, and you should really read your work since I'm expected to do so.

As for the pay gap, while it's not an outright myth, it's often misunderstood.

Please, don't go on... I feel stupid approaching.

Well, I'm sure you wouldn't object if I gave mine:

http://www.evawintl.org/images/uploads/BasicDataFindings_12-07-09.pdf

According to this study, 15.6 of reports can reliably be determined as false.

I don't think you know how to read. Seven percent of rapes accusations be "unfounded/false." The number drops to six percent by the time of prosecution. In fact, 15.6 only shows up twice in the pdf: once to state that the men plead guilty to a lesser offense and the second to show that 15.6% of rape victims did not have microtrauma associated with the rape. Which, is considerably different from "determined as false."

But, I think that this graphic is helpful



Did you know that there's evidence to suggest that women rape men at about the same rate that men rape women?

http://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers/

Yes, Time magazine... Unfortunately, the Department of Justice says otherwise. Specifically, on page 5 it says,

Quote
Federal statistical series obtaining data on arrested or convicted persons Uniform Crime Reports, National Judicial Reporting Program, and National Corrections Reporting Program show a remarkable similarity in the characteristics of those categorized as rapists: 99 in 100 are male, 6 in 10 are white, and the average age is the early thirties

Child support?


Let's start with one of the most grotesque: rape victims having to pay child support to care for their rape babies.

In Hermesmann v. Seyer, Colleen Hermesmann successfully argued that a woman is entitled to sue the father of her child for child support, even if conception occurred as a result of a criminal act committed by the woman.  This has been used as a precedent.  Repeatedly.

I looked up that case. To say it has been "used as precedent. Repeatedly." is a bald-face lie. It is still the law in Kansas, to be sure. But the case has been cited 109 times according to westlaw, 69 of which are secondary sources: law journals and other academic work (which looks to be very critical of the result). The portion relevant has been cited by 4 courts, three of which rejected it's logic. One court in Delaware in an unpublished opinion upheld it, finding that a mother who was a victim of an incestuous rape had a common law duty to provide for the resulting child when the father/ her brother had custody.

But I'm not here to play oppression olympics. Fact is, courts aren't perfect, some of them make mistakes. Some mistakes are terrible. Jim Crow for example. However, I do not see this as a male problem, but instead as part of a larger problem in which courts grant rapists parental rights. In something like 22 states, a rapist can rape a woman, and retain custody. Courts often rely on case precedence, and when they extend these rights to male rapists, they set the stage for the same outcome for female rapists.

Could I have a source?

I GAVE YOU THE SOURCE. IT'S CALLED WESTLAW YOU DOLT. Unfortunately, you have to pay to use it. I get it free as a perk of being in the super secret lawyer's club.

ETA: I am in full agreement with Davedan. In reality, I question posts in this thread so often because I do want to confine it to the "worst of" part. When it first started, I enjoyed laughing at little kids in mommy's basement threatening people. But now, I don't feel like there is any standard. Gray areas, such as what McIntosh posted, are ridiculed as SJW because they espouse a position on social justice that someone here disagrees with. That isn't a solid standard to me. And, when that happens, the practical effect is that any amount of caring for social justice carries the risk of being an SJW if someone to the political right of you disagrees. I think that, practically speaking, when gray areas in social justice arise, it is better to be on the social justice side of that gray area. That doesn't mean you cannot think critically of the situation, but to say that if there is gray area, and you disagree with someone, that doesn't make them a rabid SJW that hates all white cis-men.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 10:52:40 pm by The_Queen »
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Offline davedan

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #7762 on: November 25, 2015, 10:58:11 pm »
I posted this earlier in another thread, at the time I had considered posting it in here and now fuck it:

http://whenwomenrefuse.tumblr.com

listen to these SJW radical feminists expecting to be treated like autonomous beings capable of respect. crazy.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #7763 on: November 25, 2015, 11:37:16 pm »
Personally I am getting fucking annoyed with the use of the term SJW as a derogatory term. Striving for social justice has to be a commendable goal. People may get carried away with how they do it but otherwise aren't you actually saying you want to preserve social inequality?

That's a false dichotomy.  I'm not against social justice, only against the extremists.  And that's exactly why I stopped saying "SJW" and started saying "radflake."

I posted this earlier in another thread, at the time I had considered posting it in here and now fuck it:

http://whenwomenrefuse.tumblr.com

listen to these SJW radical feminists expecting to be treated like autonomous beings capable of respect. crazy.

...How dare you.

Dave, I used to respect you.  Hell, for all our disagreements, I used to like you.  I was willing to put up with a lot.  But this?  This is just beyond the pale.

Implying that I would support those atrocities just because of my political views?  You have crossed the line.

I don't want to hear another peep out of you, loathsome cracker.  You've done quite enough.  Have you no decency?  Have you, at long last, no sense of decency?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 11:54:53 pm by Ultimate Paragon »

Offline davedan

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #7764 on: November 25, 2015, 11:50:08 pm »
Penultimate Pissant - it is not a false dichotomy at all. You either want to fight social inequality or you want it entrenched.

A person may say that I feel there is no social inequality but if there was I would be against it/ for it. Although a person who said there was none would be pretty oblivious.

Or just a mendacious person. Like you.

Edit: For all our disagreements I used to like you too.

I have grown disillusioned by your increasing and rampant intellectual dishonesty, sometimes actual dishonesty.

Don't try and censor me. According to you telling me to shut up is a violation of freedom of speech.

I'm not impressed with your feigned outrage either. Don't pretend that I am the loathsome one when you are more outraged by inconsistent demands for female game characters than what happens to women every day.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 12:08:50 am by davedan »

Offline Ironchew

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #7765 on: November 26, 2015, 12:04:06 am »
I'm not against social justice, only against the extremists.  And that's exactly why I stopped saying "SJW" and started saying "radflake."

I suppose the interesting detail is where you draw the line of "extreme". After all, Vox and Roosh don't like those extremist feminists either, for their own definition of extreme.

I posted this earlier in another thread, at the time I had considered posting it in here and now fuck it:

http://whenwomenrefuse.tumblr.com

listen to these SJW radical feminists expecting to be treated like autonomous beings capable of respect. crazy.

...How dare you.

Dave, I used to respect you.  Hell, for all our disagreements, I used to like you.  I was willing to put up with a lot.  But this?  This is just beyond the pale.

Implying that I would support those atrocities just because of my political views?  You have crossed the line.

I don't want to hear another peep out of you, loathsome cracker.  You've done quite enough.  Have you no decency?  Have you, at long last, no sense of decency?

It's an outrage! Another Conservative Outrage-Gate™, I say!
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Offline davedan

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #7766 on: November 26, 2015, 12:10:03 am »
Also to answer your direct question. No I have no sense of decency.

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #7767 on: November 26, 2015, 12:13:01 am »
...cracker? Out of all the words you use to express your sincere disappointment and loathing, you use "cracker"?

Offline The_Queen

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #7768 on: November 26, 2015, 12:16:27 am »
I don't want to hear another peep out of you, loathsome cracker.  You've done quite enough.  Have you no decency?  Have you, at long last, no sense of decency?

Can you not talk like a knight of the fucking round table?
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Offline davedan

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #7769 on: November 26, 2015, 12:22:14 am »
...cracker? Out of all the words you use to express your sincere disappointment and loathing, you use "cracker"?

I am a cracker though it's my schtick. Hence my title 'Lord Cracker'