Author Topic: Gun Control  (Read 79168 times)

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Offline nickiknack

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #405 on: February 08, 2013, 10:44:03 pm »
Stormwarden is right, the Henry Fonda version is the best one.

Offline Cerim Treascair

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #406 on: February 10, 2013, 12:06:30 am »
Priestling: I prefer the old B and W version myself, but I actually like reading the original play itself. I find the ending much more interesting in that one. If you get the chance, look for the original play. You won't be disappointed.

I actually like reading in script and play format.  I'll have to go find it! I didn't even know there was an original play.  Thanks!
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Offline Stormwarden

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #407 on: February 10, 2013, 01:06:57 am »
It was done up by Reginald Rose in 1954. A quick use of Google-Fu yielded a PDF with the full play on it. My PC is slower than all get out atm, but it's the second result on the Google search ^^.


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Offline Damen

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #408 on: February 10, 2013, 01:18:15 am »
To the nay-sayers of putting armed guards or teachers in schools, I'll point out that as a part of the original Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 (which included the original and ineffective AWB) put forward enough funds to put 100,000 police officers on the streets and, in fact, is what started allowing armed police in schools and that actually did have an impact on violent crimes in and around schools.

And on the flip-side, it also eliminated the ability of prison inmates to get Pell Grants for higher education, because who gives a shit about rehabilitating our inmates and making sure they have the education they need to make a better life for themselves once they're released, right?

Side note:
Thank you Damen for your thoughts on long rage firing, I appreciate the thoroughness. Considering what he was carrying, Neil Gardner would probably have had a difficult time landing an accurate shot as you stated, but suffice it to say there is a distinct lack (at least from what I've seen) of evidence he was compromised by his missing glasses.

No problem, Jazzy. In that specific event, I think there's more evidence that his biggest handicap was the weapon he was using (a pistol) than anything else. The effective range of a Beretta 92FS is around 50 meters which translates to around 54.7 yards and he was engaging a hostile at 60 to 70 yards. That's well outside the effective range of the weapon he was using.

If anything, this tells me that the guards we have now in schools already ought to be better armed, much like how patrol cops were given M4 carbines after the North Hollywood shootout. If Gardner had had a security vehicle with, say, an H&K MP5 submachinegun in the trunk, he could have engaged more effectively because that weapon has an effective range of 200 meters (218.7 yards). Or, the more budget friendly H&K UMP9, which has an effective range of 100 meters (109.4 yards).

How about this? We all stop and chill out for a moment. We've been debating this whole thing for three months, and some of the stuff here's starting to remind me of what we fucking submit in the quote queue. So let's get the peace pipe out and calm down. Feels like 12 Angry Men in this frickin' thread...

THIS THIS THIS

We can arm guards, and teachers all you want, but as long as we have culture that says the way to solve a problem is through the use of a gun, these shootings will continue, and our communities will continue to break down.

I'm all for allowing ourselves a break for a while from the issue of gun control because after three months of saying the same things right now it's feeling less like a debate and more like a polite way to call each other idiots.

But what I do want to end this post on is a simple fact as I see it: if you focus on removing the tools used in the commission of a crime (such as firearms) but don't remove the desire to commit (or the perceived necessity to commit) a crime, then you will have done nothing to ensure people are any safer than they were before.
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Offline Stormwarden

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #409 on: February 10, 2013, 02:03:01 am »
Damen: It doesn't help when most guards train their aim for around 21 feet, which, in all fairness, is the range most firefights take place in. What happened at Columbine was a rare case indeed.

Again, I'm not big on guards at schools, but if there needs to be guards, train the hell out of them. That includes situational awareness, threat assessment, unarmed combat, etc.

Right, going back on break from the gun debate. I could use some sun.


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Offline chitoryu12

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #410 on: February 10, 2013, 02:39:51 am »
Damen: It doesn't help when most guards train their aim for around 21 feet, which, in all fairness, is the range most firefights take place in. What happened at Columbine was a rare case indeed.

Again, I'm not big on guards at schools, but if there needs to be guards, train the hell out of them. That includes situational awareness, threat assessment, unarmed combat, etc.

Right, going back on break from the gun debate. I could use some sun.

Train the COPS better, too. A lot of people started looking into police officer training standards after the shooting at the Empire State Building (short version: guy killed a coworker with one shot, two responding officers fired 16 rounds and injured 9 bystanders on top of killing the murderer), and found that their training standards are often ridiculously horrific. Damned if I can't find all of the sources now, but I believe that officers in many jurisdictions are only required to requalify a few times a year and they're not always judicious about practicing.

I did find one source while typing this up, someone providing information to a hopeful NYPD cop. Here's what he said about the handgun qualification:

Quote
The range qualification is pretty easy. You need a score of 78 or better in 2 out of 3 tries to pass.

50 shots. 2 points a shot.
You shoot 5 at 25 yards, 15 at 15 yards, and 30 at 7 yards. And you are timed. Example: 3 shots in 4 seconds... ready... draw!

By the 5th day of shooting you should be able to hit all 30 shots at 7 yards. That means you need to hit 9/20 from the other distances. Very doable.
Most people were in the mid 80s to low 90s on the final day.

The minimum of 78 points means that you only need to make 39 hits out of 50 (or missing 11 times) to pass. And again, this is a closed range with a non-moving target at practically point blank range and very little stress.

According to this older source, the average hit rate for NYPD officers involved in a gunfight from 1998 to 2006 was 18 percent. It only raised to 30 percent when they were shooting at suspects who weren't shooting back. It's no wonder that at the Empire State Building, most of their bullets went places they weren't supposed to.
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Offline chitoryu12

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #411 on: February 10, 2013, 02:41:56 am »
If anyone would like to view the gunfight with their own eyes, by the way, here's a link to the surveillance camera video of it. Lets you see just how close they were to the bad guy when they injured 9 people that they weren't supposed to.
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Offline Damen

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #412 on: February 10, 2013, 03:07:35 am »
Damen: It doesn't help when most guards train their aim for around 21 feet, which, in all fairness, is the range most firefights take place in. What happened at Columbine was a rare case indeed.

Indeed, but so was North Hollywood. I guess this should be a combination case of "hope for the best and expect the worst" and "when you need it and don't have it you sing a different tune." It was an extraordinary case, but I'd rather the guard have access to an MP5 and, best case, that firearm sits in his trunk collecting dust and never sees the light of day.

Again, I'm not big on guards at schools, but if there needs to be guards, train the hell out of them. That includes situational awareness, threat assessment, unarmed combat, etc.

I sympathize, I really do. But my way of thinking is, if we're going to have guards for our government buildings, for our elected officials, for our mass transit and for our public gathering places then we may as well have guards for our kids. I'd just rather the guards not have their weapons visible and go their whole careers without ever drawing them.

Right, going back on break from the gun debate. I could use some sun.

Likewise.
"Fear my .45"

"If the liberties of the American people are ever destroyed, they will fall by the hands of the clergy" ~ Marquis De Lafayette

'Till Next Time,
~John Damen