People who steal shopping carts piss me off

[dpareja]

You could always save a little every month.  It'll add up eventually, and you can get yourself one.

Sometimes you can't even spare that much.

[ironbite]

I give up.  I have never seen someone with such blatant disregard for the law and for ethics that I'd rather go find some lolcat macros to throw at him.

Ironbite-but I got my fish out and I haven't gotten it out in years so...

[largeham]

I'm starting to wonder just how much you fap to Ayn Rand...

I think you mean Karl Marx.

I give up.  I have never seen someone with such blatant disregard for the law and for ethics that I'd rather go find some lolcat macros to throw at him.

Ironbite-but I got my fish out and I haven't gotten it out in years so...

Who's laws? Who's ethics? Legal does not equal ethical. As I said earlier, the land enclosures were legal, does that make them ethical or moral?

[Shane for Wax]

[Witchyjoshy]

Who's laws? Who's ethics? Legal does not equal ethical. As I said earlier, the land enclosures were legal, does that make them ethical or moral?

For chrissake, do I really need to spell it out for you?

It's the ethics of the people that determine that stealing is wrong.  And the ethics of the people are necessary because we humans need society to function.

If people decide that it is okay to steal, then it harms everyone in the long run.  That is why it is ethically wrong.

It is legally wrong because society needs a functioning set of standards.  The line drawn in the sand that says "this is punishable, this is not."  This doesn't mean all laws are just, but that for every law broken, there must be a repercussion.

This is what it means to be civilly disobedient.  To intentionally break the law, knowing that you will deal with the consequences, and dealing with them gracefully.  Otherwise, it is just cowardice and base justification for petty crime.

[Distind]

Just to toss it out there, even accounting for lost property or stolen goods, you do know that those numbers are counted against the people who actually work for the business right? Used to deny people raises or bonuses that would make their lives more reasonable to deal with? They can account for it all they want, and they can also say that had those accounts not been dented so hard someone might have actually gotten that money.

You're stealing from someone who's working to make a living in the end. Probably a number of them. Which puts it quite squarely in the 'Not Ethical' category, without bothering to reference legality. Unless I can walk off with your shit that is.

[rookie]

So Largeham, what's your beef with business?

[Nightangel8212]

We've never come across any of those folding carts up here. If you would be so kind as to tell us what store in Edmonton, Alberta, we could find them? Because it's rather difficult to carry hundreds of dollars worth of groceries home without a vehicle or a shopping cart.

Sears, Target, and Walmart carry them. Amazon.ca has them too.

Good to know. Perhaps I may actually keep an eye out for them the next time I go to Walmart. However, as I mentioned before, if they're more than ten bucks, forget it. Given we only have about a $60-$80 budget to get food for two people to last an entire month, even a couple of dollars can mean the difference between us starving for a few days.

I agree that stealing shopping carts is a somewhat morally grey area... however, I have to do what I must to freakin' survive.

You could always save a little every month.  It'll add up eventually, and you can get yourself one.
[/quote]

Save what? Right now my account is actually overdrawn by three bucks, and it's rare to have more than a dollar left in my name even just a week after getting my check. I'm on welfare right now, and only get $713 a month. That doesn't leave much wiggle room for saving much of anything. Heck, I can't even afford a bowl of fifty cent ichiband from a dollar store, much less a personalized shopping cart.

My boyfriend and I went shopping at the local Superstore a few months ago. Never doing that again because that store has those wheel lock devices, and my boyfriend (who has fibromyalgia btw) had to walk 22 blocks, with about 80 lbs of canned goods stuffed into his backpack. The straps on his backpack broke and he had to tie the ends together. I carried what I could to try and relieve him of the burden, but he refused to give me anything heavy, and suffered for the rest of the day lying in bed struggling not to cry at the pain. He wound up missing two days of work because he was unable to get out of bed due to the pain.

Thankfully my father is in town atm, and I can call on him to give me lifts to the store (and it has the added bonus that he'll sometimes contribute to the food bill to relieve some of the sting), but this spring when he's no longer in town, I'm not going to have much choice but to go to Safeway (which I don't like shopping at due to their prices) and if I have to take a shopping cart off property to get my food home to take care of my boyfriend and myself, then so be it. I refuse to feel guilty for trying to live.

[nickiknack]

Hey, don't bite my head off, I'm just offering a solution off the top of my head and I'm not trying to make you feel guilty. If you're on welfare, I'm sure there's some kind food or rent assistance you can get. Have you tried any local food banks??  Is there any public transportation that goes near any grocery stores that you can use(plus if you qualify, you may be able to get bus passes at the public assistance office, where I live they offer it to many on public assistance, and given you're in Canada, the public assistance is probably better than it is here in the States)? Have you tried asking relatives to lend some money so you can get one, after all you seems to be on good terms with your father. If he's willing to contribute to the food bill sometimes, he may be happy to lend you money in order for you to get one, you never know, until you ask. Again I'm just trying to help and I'm not trying to be an insensitive bitch.

[mellenORL]

Thinking about ways to survive better is about all you do when you are really poor. I've lived that life. It was years ago, but I remember it vividly.

Unless you have lived on the edge of deprivation, it is hard to grasp just how difficult the least "little" thing is. Getting around on public transit - unless you live in a major city like Toronto or NYC - takes insane amounts of time from your life, exposes you to hours of waiting in all weather, and even the "low" cost is really a burden when every penny counts.

Even if you get a carry cart, guess what? They are hard to handle with heavy groceries (just 2 wheels for hauling on) and make all your muscles ache after a mile or so. And they break easily.

Poverty and un/under employment is like having a chronic disease. It grinds down your self esteem. It exhausts you physically and mentally with worrying. It's very much like the "Spoons" meme - constant monitoring and trade-offs of limited energy and resources to get through the day.

And the worst part? People around you don't understand, and offer criticism and naive "advice". Blame the victim, basically. So, yeah, I don't get angry at someone with a stolen or misappropriated or borrowed shopping cart. I get angry at the society that continues to tolerate poverty.

[nickiknack]

Oh yeah, did I tell you that I know about the crap about public transportation, given that I depend on it, and I'm lucky that I live in the one of the bigger cities in the area(which is still considered small). There's a reason why everyone went insane when the city was thinking about getting rid of the city bus system. Yeah there is the county bus system, sometimes it's a pain, but it's nice to have backup in place. Also I don't think anyone is intending to blame the victim, the problem is stolen carts come with a price,  that's why you have places charging people to use the carts.

[Shane for Wax]

So Largeham, what's your beef with business?

All comrades have beef with business.

[Nightangel8212]

Hey, don't bite my head off, I'm just offering a solution off the top of my head and I'm not trying to make you feel guilty. If you're on welfare, I'm sure there's some kind food or rent assistance you can get. Have you tried any local food banks??  Is there any public transportation that goes near any grocery stores that you can use(plus if you qualify, you may be able to get bus passes at the public assistance office, where I live they offer it to many on public assistance, and given you're in Canada, the public assistance is probably better than it is here in the States)? Have you tried asking relatives to lend some money so you can get one, after all you seems to be on good terms with your father. If he's willing to contribute to the food bill sometimes, he may be happy to lend you money in order for you to get one, you never know, until you ask. Again I'm just trying to help and I'm not trying to be an insensitive bitch.

Sorry, I didn't mean to bite your head off in my last reply, but I've had tonnes of "advice" that I've tried looking into up here. Welfare expects you to buy a bus pass with the little that they give you... which is not a feasible option for me, since a bus pass up here costs $85. When you only have $713 to work with, that's a lot of money. I tried asking about assistance for rent, and that was a no-go. I went to the food bank in December. They only allow you to collect from them once a month, and a huge chunk of the food they gave me was either expired or weird exotic stuff that i had no clue how to prepare. Heck, the carton of milk they gave me was freakin' CHUNKY. And my father is living with my brother, who is constantly spending all of HIS money on his freakin' girlfriend and kids rather than on his own bills, so he has my parents pay those for him. My mother is on AISH and my father is on old age assistance, and they don't make much themselves. When I say he contributes, I'm talking like no more than ten to twenty dollars.

The thing that pisses me off the most about them staying with my brother is that he makes about $20 an hour, and is always fucking broke because in his words "girlfriends are expensive." Now THERE is someone who needs to get his fucking priorities straight.

Oh, and when I tried asking welfare about any other possible government assistance programs that could help me out, the woman on the other end sounded rather pissed off as she said something along the lines of "You know, if you're having so much trouble, that's what homeless shelters and food banks are for!!"

In other words, they're a bunch of cows who don't give a shit about their clients. They are TRAINED to be completely unsympathetic, and every six months or so, they change your worker just to be sure they don't grow attached to you.

[SpaceProg]

I thought Canada would be a lot better to its less fortunate citizens than down here, but... damn...
I don't really know what to say.  I'm sorry it's so bad for you, Nightangel.  *hugs*

[largeham]

For chrissake, do I really need to spell it out for you?

It's the ethics of the people that determine that stealing is wrong.  And the ethics of the people are necessary because we humans need society to function.

If people decide that it is okay to steal, then it harms everyone in the long run.  That is why it is ethically wrong.

Ethics and morality aren't objective principles handed down and accepted, they are created out of the economic and political realities under which we live. The morals of people living 200 years ago were vastly different to what 'morals' we have now. Hell, even now people claim homosexuality is immoral or that knowingly bringing up a child in a same-sex couple household is unethical.

This piece is quite good in explaining 'morality' (though I have my disagreements), some of the bits in this piece are also useful.

It is legally wrong because society needs a functioning set of standards.  The line drawn in the sand that says "this is punishable, this is not."  This doesn't mean all laws are just, but that for every law broken, there must be a repercussion.

Laws exist to maintain the current social relations and solve 'problems' in society. Why is it that petty theft is condemned but other types of theft are ignored or sanctioned? Would we need laws against theft if people didn't steal (by eliminating the factors that drive people to theft)?

This is what it means to be civilly disobedient.  To intentionally break the law, knowing that you will deal with the consequences, and dealing with them gracefully.  Otherwise, it is just cowardice and base justification for petty crime.

This makes little sense. It is being civilly disobedient when you accept the punishment for your crime?

Just to toss it out there, even accounting for lost property or stolen goods, you do know that those numbers are counted against the people who actually work for the business right? Used to deny people raises or bonuses that would make their lives more reasonable to deal with? They can account for it all they want, and they can also say that had those accounts not been dented so hard someone might have actually gotten that money.

You're stealing from someone who's working to make a living in the end. Probably a number of them. Which puts it quite squarely in the 'Not Ethical' category, without bothering to reference legality. Unless I can walk off with your shit that is.

Do you have evidence that shoplifting is counted against employees? I could see it happening if an employee had seen or actively helped someone steal, otherwise it is simply a bullshit excuse for employers to deny pay rises. And do you have any evidence that the money saved from shoplifting would be passed on in increased wages?

Items in a store do not belong to the workers there, they belong to whoever owns the store. Stealing does not take money from the workers but the owner. Also, did you not read my caveat that;
A) I don't support shoplifting, simply that I don't care
and
B) it depends who takes what from whom/where

So Largeham, what's your beef with business?

Technically my beef is with capitalism, companies are simply a way for individuals to control their property (means of production, not your toothbrush, house, car, etc). My beef with capitalism is the exploitation of workers, the periodic crises(es?) it falls into, the inevitable wars and the racism and sexism that support the system.