Author Topic: National Elections Thread  (Read 78530 times)

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Offline The_Queen

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Re: National Elections Thread
« Reply #180 on: August 10, 2016, 10:18:08 am »
I'd just like to add this post clearing up some bs about Jill Stein:
http://doomy.me/post/148132817882/leftclausewitz-scapetheserpentstongue

There is a lot of nuance at play here, though none of it from Jill Stein. She has never gone full anti-vax, but her answer in the AMA pandered to the anti-vax crowd by implying that vaccines are part of some big pharma conspiracy to make a shit load of money and that the wolves were guarding the FDA henhouse. Her exact words were,

Quote from: Jill Stein
I don't know if we have an "official" stance, but I can tell you my personal stance at this point. According to the most recent review of vaccination policies across the globe, mandatory vaccination that doesn't allow for medical exemptions is practically unheard of. In most countries, people trust their regulatory agencies and have very high rates of vaccination through voluntary programs. In the US, however, regulatory agencies are routinely packed with corporate lobbyists and CEOs. So the foxes are guarding the chicken coop as usual in the US. So who wouldn't be skeptical? I think dropping vaccinations rates that can and must be fixed in order to get at the vaccination issue: the widespread distrust of the medical-indsutrial complex.

Vaccines in general have made a huge contribution to public health. Reducing or eliminating devastating diseases like small pox and polio. In Canada, where I happen to have some numbers, hundreds of annual death from measles and whooping cough were eliminated after vaccines were introduced. Still, vaccines should be treated like any medical procedure--each one needs to be tested and regulated by parties that do not have a financial interest in them. In an age when industry lobbyists and CEOs are routinely appointed to key regulatory positions through the notorious revolving door, its no wonder many Americans don't trust the FDA to be an unbiased source of sound advice. A Monsanto lobbyists and CEO like Michael Taylor, former high-ranking DEA official, should not decide what food is safe for you to eat. Same goes for vaccines and pharmaceuticals. We need to take the corporate influence out of government so people will trust our health authorities, and the rest of the government for that matter. End the revolving door. Appoint qualified professionals without a financial interest in the product being regulated. Create public funding of elections to stop the buying of elections by corporations and the super-rich.

For homeopathy, just because something is untested doesn't mean it's safe. By the same token, being "tested" and "reviewed" by agencies tied to big pharma and the chemical industry is also problematic. There's a lot of snake-oil in this system. We need research and licensing boards that are protected from conflicts of interest. They should not be limited by arbitrary definitions of what is "natural" or not.

and

Quote from: Jill Stein
As a medical doctor, there was a time where I looked very closely at those issues, and not all those issues were completely resolved. There were concerns among physicians about what the vaccination schedule meant, the toxic substances like mercury which used to be rampant in vaccines. There were real questions that needed to be addressed. I think some of them at least have been addressed. I don’t know if all of them have been addressed.

Now, she does say vaccines made a huge contribution, but she panders to the anti-vaxxers by noting potential conflicts of interest in the system and mercurial dangers that quite frankly do not exist. The "vaccine safety" argument has long been a tool of anti-vaxxers in the same way that "health of the mother" has been to the pro-life movement. It is these people that she is trying to dog-whistle at to get their support. The part about "mandatory vaccination without medical exemption" is a flat-out lie, as there are exemptions for those with immunodeficiencies or those whose health may be compromised by the vaccination. The mercury scare was resolved decades ago. Further, most members of the Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee do not work for drug companies, but academic and medical institutions. Additionally, while drug company representatives are present, they are a non-voting minority, with no say in the FDA's end result. What is more, anyone believing that there is "snake oil in the system" is pants on head stupid as the Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee's meeting materials are posted on the FDA's website in their entirety for anyone to see and read. Finally, childhood vaccination schedules, the mandatory ones, are a bad way for companies to make money as vaccines have incredibly low profit margins.

And all of this is really superfluous, since all she had to say when asked the Reddit question was "Yes, we have an official stance. Vaccines represent a great advance forward in saving lives and preventing diseases. As such, Americans should receive their vaccinations on the regularly recommended schedule, for both personal and public health. My administration will work toward ensure that vaccine manufacturers can continue to produce and supply the vaccines necessary for our nation." Hell, she could've just replied with this Hillary tweet, "The science is clear: The earth is round, the sky is blue, and #vaccineswork. Let's protect all our kids. #GrandmothersKnowBest." But she didn't. She obfuscated the issue by throwing in a fusillade of anti-vaxxer buzzwords and dog whistles about vaccine safety and corporate greed that have no basis in reality and that as a doctor she should know (and as a politician running for POTUS, she should definitely know better). That is why I said she was "pandering to" instead of "going full anti-vaxxer." She's a medical doctor, I know she knows better, but I don't think her ethics are quite there yet. Speaking of ethics, and brexit, if you still see Stein's old statements, just delete your cache so they'll disappear forever. I wonder how much Bernie-or-Busters would flip shit if Hillary said that.
Does anyone take Donald Trump seriously, anymore?

Offline SCarpelan

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Re: National Elections Thread
« Reply #181 on: August 10, 2016, 10:40:06 am »
Stein's comments about vaccinations are very similar to how Hillary answered to an anti-vaccination organization in 2008 when she was in a tight race with Obama and needed all the support she could get. Stein has problems as a candidate but the anti-vaxxer thing is pretty much a red herring distracting from them.

Quote
Do you think vaccines should be investigated as a possible cause of autism?

I am committed to make investments to find the causes of autism, including possible environmental causes like vaccines.
Quote
What will you do to protect Americans, especially young children and pregnant women, from exposure to mercury through vaccines?

I will ensure that all vaccines are as safe as possible for our children by working to ensure that Thimerosal and mercury are removed from vaccines.

Even Obama avoided pointing out that there is no known link between the mercury in vaccinations and autism or any other serious health risks.
Quote
What will you do to protect Americans, especially young children and pregnant women, from exposure to mercury through vaccines?

I support the removal of thimerosal from all vaccines and work to ensure that Americans have access to vaccines that are mercury free.

She does emphasize the need for more research but this is similar to how Stein is softening up her comments with her talking points about the corporate influence in regulatory agencies. Hillary has a more straightforward position now but it's up to anyone's interpretation if it's a result of a tactical change or an opinion evolving as a result of more information.

Edit: changed an expression that had a wrong nuance.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2016, 10:51:48 am by SCarpelan »

Offline The_Queen

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Re: National Elections Thread
« Reply #182 on: August 10, 2016, 10:51:00 am »
That is true, and I specifically recall in 2008 how Hillary and Obama were rightfully flogged for their responses. The thing is, both of them moved away from, and now fully embrace the actual science on vaccines. On the other hand, any time Stein clarifies her position, she couches that clarification within the "Vaccine safety" dogwhistle. Unlike Obama and Hillary, she has yet to stop pandering to the anti-science woo crowd. In fact, that comment I linked about a fear of mercury was made less than 2 weeks ago while Stein attempted to articulate that she is absolutely not anti-vaccination.
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Offline Askold

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Re: National Elections Thread
« Reply #183 on: August 10, 2016, 04:06:17 pm »
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
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Offline SCarpelan

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Re: National Elections Thread
« Reply #184 on: August 10, 2016, 04:15:19 pm »
One of Stein's main talking points is the corruption of the regulatory agencies and at least in the case of FDA there are some cases that seem to point to either corruption or incompetence, these cases are just not connected to vaccinations in any way. Even in the Reddit AMA her point - as I read it - is that these incidents have caused people to lose their trust to the regulators and regaining the trust would in her opinion (that ignores many other factors) be a key to increasing the vaccination rates. This is consistent with a politician who has a pet issue / talking point and looks at any given problem through that prism while carefully choosing her words to avoid alienating a voter base she needs. I see this interpretation as the most probable since she has now directly stated that she supports vaccinations. Apparently the backlash has been bad enough that alienating the anti-vaxxers has become a necessity for her, too.

While there is enough smoke in the case of FDA to suspect some kind of fire Stein goes way over the board in other issues. She crosses the line to conspiratorial paranoia when she suggests that children need to be protected from WIFI fields or calls scientists attacking her for her perceived anti-vaccination agenda industry shills. On the other hand, in the FDA issue she has generally been careful to make the difference between the actual research scientists and the managers who have been the ones making the decisions of whether to study something or not. This is typical for more radical people like her: hitting the mark or near it with some issues but crossing the line with others.

Offline ironbite

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Re: National Elections Thread
« Reply #185 on: August 10, 2016, 06:56:04 pm »
He's already bitching about the election being rigged.  Wouldn't surprise me if on election night and Hilary hits the magic number instead of conceding he uses his speech to incite riots.

Ironbite-he's a loser and that's what losers do.

Offline rookie

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Re: National Elections Thread
« Reply #186 on: August 10, 2016, 08:13:58 pm »
Incite riots and ready his lawyers for a 2000 style suing. Muddy the waters. I'm afraid he'll turn us into an even bigger laughing stock.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: National Elections Thread
« Reply #187 on: August 10, 2016, 09:01:47 pm »
"Hillary wants to abolish, essentially abolish, the Second Amendment. By the way, if she gets to pick, if she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do folks. Although the Second Amendment people, maybe there is, I don't know. But, but I'll tell you what, that will be a horrible day. If, if Hillary gets to put her judges, right now we're tied, you see what's going on."

Holy fuck. Just holy fuck. Trump has basically said, "Somebody shoot Hillary Clinton."

I didn't think it was possible for anyone, even Trump, to go over the top Trump established.
It just occurred to me Trump is going to encourage his followers to commit acts of violence if/when he loses.

He already encourages them to commit acts of violence (punching protestors, bodily throwing them out, etc) and they do. Incitement to riot wouldn't be anywhere near the escalation that "kill Hillary Clinton" represents.
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Offline Id82

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Re: National Elections Thread
« Reply #188 on: August 10, 2016, 10:08:04 pm »
Trump, having Narcissistic personality disorder won't be able to accept a lose in the election. To him it's not a sign that he's a bad candidate. To him you're the problem. Or the systems rigged. I bet he'll bitch and complain for months. Demand recounts. I don't see him conceding on election night even if he's beaten badly.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: National Elections Thread
« Reply #189 on: August 10, 2016, 11:29:21 pm »
Trump, having Narcissistic personality disorder won't be able to accept a lose in the election. To him it's not a sign that he's a bad candidate. To him you're the problem. Or the systems rigged. I bet he'll bitch and complain for months. Demand recounts. I don't see him conceding on election night even if he's beaten badly.

When was the last time a major-party candidate came third in a state? 1992, Clinton in Utah? Because I could see it happening to Trump somewhere (like, say, Utah--the Mormon Church hates him).
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

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Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Vypernight

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Re: National Elections Thread
« Reply #190 on: August 11, 2016, 04:42:46 am »
[url]http://www.aol.com/article/2016/08/10/donald-trump-says-president-obama-is-the-founder-of-isis/21449301/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D514418462_htmlws-main-bb[/url

So Trump is now claiming Obama started ISIS.  I'm wondering if at this point he's just trolling the American people to see what he can get away with.  Apparently, quite a lot.
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Offline ironbite

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Re: National Elections Thread
« Reply #191 on: August 11, 2016, 11:56:39 am »
Think you fucked up there Vyper.  Also he's claiming it's Obama and Hilary.

Ironbite-one fucking day.  One fucking day is all they had to control him.

Offline SCarpelan

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Re: National Elections Thread
« Reply #192 on: August 11, 2016, 12:14:18 pm »
http://www.aol.com/article/2016/08/10/donald-trump-says-president-obama-is-the-founder-of-isis/21449301/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D514418462_htmlws-main-bb

So Trump is now claiming Obama started ISIS.  I'm wondering if at this point he's just trolling the American people to see what he can get away with.  Apparently, quite a lot.
I had to stop the video when the crowd started applauding his lies and he stopped his speech, turned around and made encouraging gestures to them while just basking in their adoration. I felt physically ill at the sight. I always feel a bit uneasy when people get too excited about a politician even if I agree with his/her opinions on the actual issues. Seeing people go crazy about that narcissistic idiot and refusing to see what is in front of their eyes is just absolute horror.

Offline Skybison

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Re: National Elections Thread
« Reply #193 on: August 12, 2016, 02:32:55 am »
Bit of an interesting poll asking how bothered they were by different things Trump and Hillary have said and done.



I've got to be honest I'm surprised mocking a disabled person was the number 1.  That's a shit thing to do, but seeing it bothering people considerably more then something like the predatory scam of Trump University isn't what I expected.  Of course there's lots of awful stuff Trump's said and done that didn't make the list so who knows.

For the record here's Hillary Clinton's results


Offline Askold

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Re: National Elections Thread
« Reply #194 on: August 12, 2016, 04:29:30 am »
Clinton opposes TPP? Good for her. And why should she release transcripts from some speech she held for a company?
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!