State Of the Union

[Material Defender]

President enforces laws via diplomacy, military force, and yada, yada. The supreme court interprets the law. The Congress makes the law. They have certain oversight abilities over one another, like the President can't ignore congress' laws, President can veto, Supreme court can declare things against the constitution.

The President is a very important politically due to traditional upgrades of the power of the president because of people like FDR, Theodore Roosevelt, Lincoln, but at the barest definition of the law, President is ONLY the head diplomat and head of the military. His political power comes from the tradition and prestige of the position, a little from his vetos. Though some, like Thomas Jefferson didn't believe in vetos so they never used it. Otherwise he's relatively powerless. I know that Trail of Tears was caused by Jackson ignoring that the Supreme Court ordered him to protect the Cherokee and he said no, letting Georgia do what it wanted. That's really only case where the power of the President was directly under his jurisdiction I know of off hand.

Though I think Lt. Fred hates America... sooo.

[dpareja]

Another thing the President can do is make nominations for the federal courts. The Senate has to ratify them, but they can only consider people whom the President has put forward.

[Lt. Fred]

Is there another country in the history of the world where citizens routinely accuse critics of hating their land? The Soviet Union was the only other I can think of- Israel, maybe? Did Britain or Rome do the same thing? Is it an Imperial thing?

I think it's quite fascinating. Completely irrational, of course, but fascinating.

[m52nickerson]

Is there another country in the history of the world where citizens routinely accuse critics of hating their land? The Soviet Union was the only other I can think of- Israel, maybe? Did Britain or Rome do the same thing? Is it an Imperial thing?

I think it's quite fascinating. Completely irrational, of course, but fascinating.

Not all critics, just irrational ones that don't understand how the government they are criticizing works.

This is a nice cop-out from a debate in which you got so desperate that you resorted in blatant dishonesty.  When you do that people assume that you hate the US because they know you are smart enough to understand what you are doing.

I think you just can't stand the fact that people in the US, or anyone, does not share your views.  The thing is the vast majority of people in the US don't.  The reason the US government gets away with things like indefinite detentions, drone strikes, and torture is because enough people in this country don't care or agree with those things in the situations they are done.

I think you hate the "cowboy" mentality of the US.  The thinking that there are good guys and bad guys and that taking care of the bad guys sometimes means going against the letter of the law.  You hate that no one can stop the US from doing such because of who we are.

Deal with it.

[davedan]

Fred does raise an interesting point. Many times when being evenly reasonably critical of the US, the response is 'you hate America' or 'that's just because you hate america'.  Although it is part of your cultural export because we get it here now to, with : "if you don't love it, LEAVE".  Which I find petulant.

[Itachirumon]

Fred does raise an interesting point. Many times when being evenly reasonably critical of the US, the response is 'you hate America' or 'that's just because you hate america'.  Although it is part of your cultural export because we get it here now to, with : "if you don't love it, LEAVE".  Which I find petulant.

You find it petulant because that mentality 'is' petulant.

[m52nickerson]

Fred does raise an interesting point. Many times when being evenly reasonably critical of the US, the response is 'you hate America' or 'that's just because you hate america'.  Although it is part of your cultural export because we get it here now to, with : "if you don't love it, LEAVE".  Which I find petulant.

Sure, that happens all the time from your standard Redneck contingent, but here?  It takes a lot more than criticism of the US to get a "you hate America" tag.

Of course the fun of all this is pointing out to Ltfred when the Australian government has done the same thing he is criticizing the US government of doing and watch him lose it.

[nickiknack]

Fred does raise an interesting point. Many times when being evenly reasonably critical of the US, the response is 'you hate America' or 'that's just because you hate america'.  Although it is part of your cultural export because we get it here now to, with : "if you don't love it, LEAVE".  Which I find petulant.

What is worse is the whole "the US is #1" bs, meanwhile the rest of the 1st world nations are far ahead of us.

[Witchyjoshy]

Fred does raise an interesting point. Many times when being evenly reasonably critical of the US, the response is 'you hate America' or 'that's just because you hate america'.  Although it is part of your cultural export because we get it here now to, with : "if you don't love it, LEAVE".  Which I find petulant.

Sure, that happens all the time from your standard Redneck contingent, but here?  It takes a lot more than criticism of the US to get a "you hate America" tag.

I'm not usually one to agree with Nickerson on things, but he has a point here.

Fred's been pretty... off in this thread.  Quote mining is a pretty base tactic that I don't normally expect people here to use.  And it was disappointing to see.

[Lt. Fred]

Of course the fun of all this is pointing out to Ltfred when the Australian government has done the same thing he is criticizing the US government of doing

The Australian government routinely throws people in prison without charges in violation of law?

You could almost say that you don't understand Australian law.

[Rabbit of Caerbannog]

Fred does raise an interesting point. Many times when being evenly reasonably critical of the US, the response is 'you hate America' or 'that's just because you hate america'.  Although it is part of your cultural export because we get it here now to, with : "if you don't love it, LEAVE".  Which I find petulant.

Sure, that happens all the time from your standard Redneck contingent, but here?  It takes a lot more than criticism of the US to get a "you hate America" tag.

I'm not usually one to agree with Nickerson on things, but he has a point here.

Fred's been pretty... off in this thread.  Quote mining is a pretty base tactic that I don't normally expect people here to use.  And it was disappointing to see.

Zachski is disappoint. See what this thread has come to now?

[m52nickerson]

The Australian government routinely throws people in prison without charges in violation of law?

You could almost say that you don't understand Australian law.

Well I don't think it is against Australian law but they do have mandatory detention, which can be indefinite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_detention_in_Australia

...but I was not specifically talking about detentions, I was thinking more of torture.  While the Aussies seem not to like to get there hands dirty they will help the CIA do it...

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/02/report-54-countries-helped-cia-torture-detain-transport-suspects-after-911

...and they are willing to pay others to do it...

http://www.smh.com.au/world/australia-paying-troops-who-torture-20100912-1571d.html

[Witchyjoshy]

Fred does raise an interesting point. Many times when being evenly reasonably critical of the US, the response is 'you hate America' or 'that's just because you hate america'.  Although it is part of your cultural export because we get it here now to, with : "if you don't love it, LEAVE".  Which I find petulant.

Sure, that happens all the time from your standard Redneck contingent, but here?  It takes a lot more than criticism of the US to get a "you hate America" tag.

I'm not usually one to agree with Nickerson on things, but he has a point here.

Fred's been pretty... off in this thread.  Quote mining is a pretty base tactic that I don't normally expect people here to use.  And it was disappointing to see.

Zachski is disappoint. See what this thread has come to now?

ONE MILLION YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARSSSS DUNGEON!

[Lt. Fred]

Drawing a fairly long bow there, m52nickerson.

Mandatory detention, which I detest, is not illegal under Australian domestic law. More's the pity. I recognise that many people disagree, and so we have it. Since it doesn't violate any laws, our government has that choice. That does not mean that a government has a choice to violate law, it simply must not.

In terms of torture, again I agree that my government's actions have been pretty disgusting. I couldn't tell you about the legal side, but I think they shouldn't have done what they did legal or not.

Or were you expecting me to hypocritically defend my own government regardless of merit, as you have?

[m52nickerson]

Drawing a fairly long bow there, m52nickerson.

Mandatory detention, which I detest, is not illegal under Australian domestic law. More's the pity. I recognise that many people disagree, and so we have it. Since it doesn't violate any laws, our government has that choice. That does not mean that a government has a choice to violate law, it simply must not.

In terms of torture, again I agree that my government's actions have been pretty disgusting. I couldn't tell you about the legal side, but I think they shouldn't have done what they did legal or not.

Or were you expecting me to hypocritically defend my own government regardless of merit, as you have?

I half expected you to call these lies and ignore them.

The US government, as all governments that have the power and the will, have the option of indefinite detentions regardless of there laws.  Breaking the law is always and option.  It does not matter if you like it or not, or if you think governments must not, they can and do.

In the end it really does not matter to the people being held if a government is doing it against their own laws, or they codify such acts to make certain people feel better.  Nor do I.