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Community => Religion and Philosophy => Topic started by: gyeonghwa on January 16, 2012, 03:30:57 am

Title: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: gyeonghwa on January 16, 2012, 03:30:57 am: http://urbanmeter.weebly.com/36/post/2012/01/infertile-people-cant-marry-says-catholic-church.html

Quote
From Archbishop CruzÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s latest statement about the issue of marriage from an interview on GMA news, Archbishop reiterated the Catholic ChurchÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s stance that marriage along with sex is ONLY for procreation, That those who cannot procreate or decide to procreate is committing a mortal sin in the eyes of God.

The Catholic Church is planning to ban the infertile peopleÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s right to marry for they cannot conceive. Even couples who does not plan to have babies can have their marriage revoked, for they have failed their purpose to multiply.

Well now, it's just more apparent that they hate the idea of people loving each other and having sex.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: ironbite on January 16, 2012, 03:31:54 am: So they're going to be dooming themselves to extinction?

Ironbite-GO FOR IT!
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Art Vandelay on January 16, 2012, 03:40:46 am: I hope this sudden swing towards lunacy isn't just a phase for the Catholics. I'd hate to see them get so close to completely alienating their former support base only to claw it back with a slightly less loony brand of nonsense.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Yla on January 16, 2012, 03:50:40 am: *mindboggles*

I'd like to know whether this is a true vatican-approved stance, or if that's just the opinion of one archbishop. There's a difference, and I'd like to keep at least some of my faith in humanity.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Askold on January 16, 2012, 04:16:03 am: My wife asked how do they know that a person is infertile if they are not allowed to have sex before marriage?

But just once it seems that they really have thought about this, they plan to revoke any marriage that does not produce children.

*Sigh* So even if a person supports this and obeys these rules by not having sex untill marriage (with another person who also approved this "law") but turns out that he/she is infertile then their marriage will be revoked...
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Lithp on January 16, 2012, 04:19:29 am: Also they will have already committed a mortal sin, so that's a plus.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Damen on January 16, 2012, 04:42:34 am: [/shocked]
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Shane for Wax on January 16, 2012, 04:45:42 am: Forgive me father for I have sinned it has been 14 years since my last Confession... I am infertile and do not want children in the first place.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Vypernight on January 16, 2012, 05:11:05 am: Two problems right off the bat;

1. How do they enforce this? do they question every single married/engaged church goer, asking whether they plan to have (possibly more) children in the future?

Apparently older people and those who decide to stop at 3-4 children will automatically be single.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: TenfoldMaquette on January 16, 2012, 07:22:01 am: Quote from: Vypernight on January 16, 2012, 05:11:05 am
1. How do they enforce this? do they question every single married/engaged church goer, asking whether they plan to have (possibly more) children in the future?

Baby quotas, I'd assume. The church keeps tabs on all its families in the community, and if Mr.&Mrs.Smith don't regularly produce babies every few years, their marriage is invalidated.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Star Cluster on January 16, 2012, 07:30:29 am: Biggest problem I see for the RCC in enforcing this is that marriage is a civil union. How are they going to circumvent the law and void marriages of couples that have no children? Last I noticed, no church, whether it be the RCC or any other, had the power to do that, especially in the US. The church may no longer recognize their marriage, but the civil authorities sure will and they would still be legally married.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Jack Mann on January 16, 2012, 07:37:02 am: The RCC is well aware of that, Star. Keep in mind, they don't consider any non-Catholic marriage to be valid. They're well aware that they can't define marriage for most countries (though they keep trying).
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Sylvana on January 16, 2012, 08:13:31 am: I think this little stunt is refreshing.
Its somewhat less hypocritical than the stance other religions and facets of Christianity have on marriage. They just out and say its for the babies and nothing else. If anything this clears up their stance on homosexual marriage, contraception and abortion in one single statement.

Its still crazy, but refreshing.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: starseeker on January 16, 2012, 10:28:58 am: Wouldn't they also have to void every marriage where the woman is over 50 as well?
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Captain Jack Harkness on January 16, 2012, 10:34:08 am: *headdesk*

Are you freaking kidding me?
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: rageaholic on January 16, 2012, 10:42:05 am: You know, I'm really starting to hate the Catholic Church.

I mean, it was never perfect, but at least they were more open minded than their fundie counterparts. I had a little respect for them since they seemed to be into doing actual good instead of worrying about politics. But shit like this is sending them back to prevatican days.

So you're only supposed to get married if you can have kids? What about adoption? Or what if they just love each other and don't want to overpopulate the earth? Not everyone is meant to have kids and the church should respect that.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Neith on January 16, 2012, 11:50:53 am: Maybe it's just damage control, but according to the Catholic Bishops' Conference of the Philippines:

Cruz denies reports that the infertile can't marry (http://cbcpnews.com/?q=node/18192)
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Rime on January 16, 2012, 11:52:15 am: What I think this means is that they're going to nullify Catholic marriages, not all marriages. In which case, why carry that huge block of guilt and fear on your shoulder? Drop it on their foot and wave as you leave. Worst case scenario, have what the "good" Catholics call "a silly paper signing" that is recognized by the state? If that is at all necessary. You don't need a huge ceremony, either.

The part of infertility being a reason to nullify a marriage, however, is loony, even for Orthodox Catholics.

I noticed, however, that Pope Benny is continuing to sensationalize about gay marriage. Threat to humanity?
I think that the conditions of our fish stocks are greater.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Neith on January 16, 2012, 12:09:37 pm: Benny's backpedal is mentioned in that link I posted above, too.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Jack Mann on January 16, 2012, 12:11:56 pm: Well, they can't null non-Catholic marriages. Because to the RCC, those people aren't married, and there's nothing to null. Though, as Neith posted, it may not have been true. It's starting to look like this originated on anti-Catholic websites, so it might have been propaganda.

Of course, they do deny marriage to the impotent. And to gays, but that goes without saying.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Star Cluster on January 16, 2012, 12:15:42 pm: Quote from: starseeker on January 16, 2012, 10:28:58 am
Wouldn't they also have to void every marriage where the woman is over 50 as well?

I would think that would only apply if she had not borne any children and had no longer was capable of bearing any. If she's already had at least one child, meh, she's done her part.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Nightangel8212 on January 16, 2012, 12:51:30 pm: My father is a devout RC... He even went to college to become a priest before he met his FIRST WIFE (HORRORS!!!! DIVORCE!!!!), and he'd fucking punch these buggers in the nose for being retarded! I'm SOOO happy my father's more progressive than those ass-wipe's... He doesn't mind contraceptives, understands that abortion is necessary in some instances, supports equal rights for homosexuals, and is tolerant of MOST other religions (the only one he has a problem with is the Muslim faith, and that's just because he hates the way women are treated over in the middle east).

They shot themselves in the foot this time, I think... I suppose they don't believe that adopting or having IVF would be an acceptable means of reproducing children? What if the woman isn't infertile, but her husband is? Don't these asshole's understand that they could still care for children in this world and have a family?
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: deadpandoubter on January 16, 2012, 02:45:42 pm: Quote from: Sylvana on January 16, 2012, 08:13:31 am
I think this little stunt is refreshing.
Its somewhat less hypocritical than the stance other religions and facets of Christianity have on marriage. They just out and say its for the babies and nothing else. If anything this clears up their stance on homosexual marriage, contraception and abortion in one single statement.

Its still crazy, but refreshing.

Thiiiiis. My first thought was "Ah HA, they're trying to boost their "gay marriage is bad 'cuz no babbies!" argument!"
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Thejebusfire on January 16, 2012, 02:57:47 pm: Quote
Even couples who does not plan to have babies can have their marriage revoked, for they have failed their purpose to multiply.

We've multiplied seven billion times already and that isn't enough for you people?
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Osama bin Bambi on January 16, 2012, 03:17:05 pm: So I guess my Catholic grandparents who have been together for more than 50 years will have to be split up then.

(click to show/hide)
Even though my grandfather isn't really that Catholic
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Jack Mann on January 16, 2012, 03:30:51 pm: I can't find any Catholic sources to corroborate this. It seems to have stemmed from some anti-Catholic sources, possibly out of misunderstanding (or deliberate misinterpretation) of their anti-impotence rule. I'm sorry, folks, but it looks like it's just a hoax. The Catholic Church does not deny marriage to infertile couples, and doesn't seem to have any plans to do so.

We'll have to content ourselves with the myriad other ways they're insane.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: gyeonghwa on January 16, 2012, 03:41:19 pm: I most certainly hope so.

Though I wouldn't be surprise if they did say it.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Osama bin Bambi on January 16, 2012, 03:45:51 pm: It would be really funny if the Onion made it up...
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Random Gal on January 16, 2012, 04:23:45 pm: Wild DESK appeared!

RANDOM GUY used HEAD SMASH!

It's super effective!

Wild DESK fainted!
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Sigmaleph on January 16, 2012, 04:37:32 pm: I wish they would do this, but I don't think they are that stupid. Church marriage is one of the cultural traditions where the RCC is strongest. If they start denying it (or worse, revoking it) on grounds of infertility, it will cost them a lot, both in terms of the people who will get married anyway but not through the Church and those that see it as further confirmation that the Church is run by idiots.

This is, at most, the sayings of one guy, and possibly not even that.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: TheL on January 16, 2012, 07:14:07 pm: Quote from: Nightangel8212 on January 16, 2012, 12:51:30 pm
I suppose they don't believe that adopting or having IVF would be an acceptable means of reproducing children? What if the woman isn't infertile, but her husband is? Don't these asshole's understand that they could still care for children in this world and have a family?

Adoption, yes. IVF, no--having babies in any way but the natural method is a perversion of what sex is all about. Because the semen is generally obtained through the "intrinsically disordered act" of masturbation.

According to the Vatican, you shouldn't have sex without allowing a baby, and you shouldn't have babies without having sex. Because sex and babies are inextricably linked, you see.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Vene on January 16, 2012, 07:33:36 pm: Suddenly, their child molestation makes so much more sense.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Xander Zzyzx on January 16, 2012, 07:56:23 pm: Like I needed any MORE reasons not to stay with the Roman Catholic Church. And I thought that marriages were granted by the government now, so the church cannot revoke something that was granted by the state.

Quote from: Wykked Wytch on January 16, 2012, 03:45:51 pm
It would be really funny if the Onion made it up...

I actually really hope that this was from The Onion.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: nickiknack on January 16, 2012, 08:10:55 pm: Quote from: Wykked Wytch on January 16, 2012, 03:45:51 pm
It would be really funny if the Onion made it up...
Exactly, it reads like something straight out of the Onion.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: ironbite on January 16, 2012, 11:10:54 pm: Quote from: Nightangel8212 on January 16, 2012, 12:51:30 pm
My father is a devout RC... He even went to college to become a priest before he met his FIRST WIFE (HORRORS!!!! DIVORCE!!!!), and he'd fucking punch these buggers in the nose for being retarded! I'm SOOO happy my father's more progressive than those ass-wipe's... He doesn't mind contraceptives, understands that abortion is necessary in some instances, supports equal rights for homosexuals, and is tolerant of MOST other religions (the only one he has a problem with is the Muslim faith, and that's just because he hates the way women are treated over in the middle east).

They shot themselves in the foot this time, I think... I suppose they don't believe that adopting or having IVF would be an acceptable means of reproducing children? What if the woman isn't infertile, but her husband is? Don't these asshole's understand that they could still care for children in this world and have a family?

Never happens. It's always the women's fault. The man is never ever at fault.

Ironbite-and that's the official stance from the RCC
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Joey on January 17, 2012, 03:46:42 am: This extreme Catholic fundamentalism is exactly what Rick Santorum believes in and is why he is so truly scary.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: N. De Plume on January 17, 2012, 09:32:57 am: Quote from: Jack Mann on January 16, 2012, 03:30:51 pm
I can't find any Catholic sources to corroborate this. It seems to have stemmed from some anti-Catholic sources, possibly out of misunderstanding (or deliberate misinterpretation) of their anti-impotence rule.
Anti-impotence rule? ???
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Shane for Wax on January 17, 2012, 10:59:24 am: I actually went on the actual Vatican news site. Pope Benny in one of his speeches said something like: "policies which undermine the family threaten human dignity and the future of humanity itself."

Make of that what you will.

My Source (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2012/january/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20120109_diplomatic-corps_en.html)
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Jack Mann on January 17, 2012, 11:46:02 am: The anti-impotence rule is that if a man is impotent, he isn't allowed to get married in the RCC. Which is every bit as stupid as this. Actually, here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_impediment). This has a list of all the rules that can invalidate a marriage in the Catholic Church. Infertility isn't. On the other hand, if you can have children, but don't intend to, that does invalidate the marriage.

As for this being from the Onion, this is more like something out of a Chick Tract. That is, it's someone making things up to try and and discredit the Catholic Church. Why they bothered with all the actual ammo available, I couldn't say.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: N. De Plume on January 17, 2012, 12:02:26 pm: Well, there goes any remaining ability I may have had to take anything they say in Church about marriage as a covenant of love seriously. ItÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s just a sex and breeding machine to them.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Shane for Wax on January 17, 2012, 12:30:40 pm: Quote from: Jack Mann on January 17, 2012, 11:46:02 am
The anti-impotence rule is that if a man is impotent, he isn't allowed to get married in the RCC. Which is every bit as stupid as this. Actually, here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_impediment). This has a list of all the rules that can invalidate a marriage in the Catholic Church. Infertility isn't.

The problem with wikipedia is if this is a new, unconfirmed edict they may not have edited that page quite yet. As I said, what the Pope said could also be misconstrued as being in support of a ban on infertile marriages. Without actually saying it.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Jack Mann on January 17, 2012, 01:34:16 pm: No, if it was an edict, they'd be more open about it. That's the thing about edicts. They have to actually tell people about them for them to be effective.

Plus, the Church has already confirmed that this wasn't their intention. Benny-boy's just trying to drum up support for their anti-gay policies again.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Jodie on January 17, 2012, 01:51:28 pm: Wow. The RCC is getting deperate or stupider. IDK which.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Shane for Wax on January 17, 2012, 02:01:48 pm: Quote from: Jack Mann on January 17, 2012, 01:34:16 pm
No, if it was an edict, they'd be more open about it. That's the thing about edicts. They have to actually tell people about them for them to be effective.

Plus, the Church has already confirmed that this wasn't their intention. Benny-boy's just trying to drum up support for their anti-gay policies again.

I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. If one archbishop says 'oh this is what we're doing now' and then the Vatican goes 'bwuh' then it's not confirmed by anyone more than the archbishop, yes? Therefore there is no point to edit an article just yet about how the entire church does things. It is an unconfirmed edict and incapable of being edited in. Also incapable of being put into practice by more than the one archbishop.

I also didn't see anything from the actual Vatican that said it was entirely wrong. The link that was posted some time ago didn't seem to confirm or deny anything to me. Not concretely. Just ass-covering. Googling didn't help either.

Maybe I'm just dense from lack of sleep, tho.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Jack Mann on January 17, 2012, 02:30:35 pm: Here's (http://www.journal.com.ph/index.php/news/national/21768-cruz-clarifies-reports-on-infertility-gay-marriage) where Cruz explains that the Church doesn't bar infertility. Cruz was supposedly the one who said it in the first place. Even if he had said it, he's been retired since 2009, and no longer makes any sort of policy. While the church has said in a number of points that marriage is there for procreation, they've said that mostly in response to gay marriage.

So, to recap. This appears to have started in anti-Catholic papers. Cruz denies having said it. No other sources within the Church have said it. Even if Cruz had said it, he's not in a position to be able to make that sort of proclamation.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: rosenewock21 on January 17, 2012, 02:32:32 pm: Shall we invoke Poe's Law on this one, then?
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Jack Mann on January 17, 2012, 02:36:28 pm: Sounds about right.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Shane for Wax on January 17, 2012, 03:44:22 pm: Meh. Just because people say something then another doesn't make it any less valid that they hold that belief. But I acquiesce.

There's plenty reason to dislike the Church for multiple real reasons. Why anyone would bring up something else is strange. Must've been the Protestants. /derp
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Jack Mann on January 17, 2012, 09:58:06 pm: That's not entirely unlikely. Or Muslims. And the reason they make up things like this is likely because they don't disagree with the things we find objectionable, such as their stance on gay marriage or the like.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: ThunderWulf on January 18, 2012, 12:28:39 am: Quote from: gyeonghwa on January 16, 2012, 03:30:57 am
Quote
From Archbishop CruzÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s latest statement about the issue of marriage from an interview on GMA news, Archbishop reiterated the Catholic ChurchÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s stance that marriage along with sex is ONLY for procreation, That those who cannot procreate or decide to procreate is committing a mortal sin in the eyes of God.

The Catholic Church is planning to ban the infertile peopleÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s right to marry for they cannot conceive. Even couples who does not plan to have babies can have their marriage revoked, for they have failed their purpose to multiply.

(http://ragecomics.memebase.com/wp-content/themes/vip/cheezcommon2/ragecomic/packs/seriously/images/JackieChan.png)
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Eniliad on January 19, 2012, 04:03:31 pm: Quote
From Archbishop CruzÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s latest statement about the issue of marriage from an interview on GMA news, Archbishop reiterated the Catholic ChurchÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s stance that marriage along with sex is ONLY for procreation, That those who cannot procreate or decide to procreate is committing a mortal sin in the eyes of God.

The Catholic Church is planning to ban the infertile peopleÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s right to marry for they cannot conceive. Even couples who does not plan to have babies can have their marriage revoked, for they have failed their purpose to multiply.

Hey fundies... when we were arguing with your anti-gay marriage stance, and we said "what, are infertile women not real marriages either?"...

WE DIDN'T MEAN IT.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Cataclysm on January 19, 2012, 04:05:18 pm: Although it's just as ridiculous.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: lighthorseman on January 19, 2012, 08:23:08 pm: Is this for real, or is it a really obvious reductio ad absurdam Poe, that we're all to jaded to see as a joke?
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: N. De Plume on January 19, 2012, 08:39:32 pm: Sounds like a serious guy that backpedaled when he found out how much trouble he was in.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: Jack Mann on January 19, 2012, 08:40:42 pm: Light, read the rest of the thread. No, it's probably not real. That said, RCC does things that are just as stupid.

Plume, it's possible. But given that he's retired, and no longer able to dictate policy, it's unlikely.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: N. De Plume on January 19, 2012, 08:46:51 pm: Quote from: Jack Mann on January 19, 2012, 08:40:42 pm
Plume, it's possible. But given that he's retired, and no longer able to dictate policy, it's unlikely.
I mean the statement is real. Not that it could lead to any official policy.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: DasFuchs on January 20, 2012, 04:47:00 am: Well, this is really no surprise, they've been using the excuse "Marriage is to have children" to ban gay marriage for a decade or more, I guess at the least they're being consistent
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: czechmate on January 20, 2012, 07:37:52 am: The Wedding Ceremony comes from the Babylonian/Assyrian cultures and was an excuse for a 7-day Bachannialian orgy.
I suggest the RCC should be banned from the human race, having been the most destructive and hypocritical organisations man has ever invented.
The RCC is the wealthiest organisation on Earth, capable of bankrupting the USA and several other members of the G7. They demand their 10% from all their flock (regardless of how poor they are) pay no taxes, dress in the most outlandish outfits, spend fortunes on building churches, yet will not give a brass farthing away without ensuring they get $1000 back.
In Europe, the RCC virtually runs Poland and Slovakia, as well as several Central American states.
The world would be a better place without these parasites.
Title: Re: RCC to ban infertile people from marriage
Post by: N. De Plume on January 20, 2012, 09:19:32 am: Quote from: czechmate on January 20, 2012, 07:37:52 am
They demand their 10% from all their flock (regardless of how poor they are) pay no taxes, dress in the most outlandish outfits, spend fortunes on building churches, yet will not give a brass farthing away without ensuring they get $1000 back.
Reminds me of the latest fundraising request from the church I go to with my mom. They were complaining that contributions have been level, but costs were going up. Newsflash: Costs are going up for everyone; you are lucky that contributions have stayed level rather than going down!

What really burns me is the continued insistence that $50 qualifies as a Ã¢â‚¬Å“modestÃ¢â‚¬Â pledge. Period. As opposed to the story of the WidowÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Mite, which promotes the idea that what is modest and what is generous depends on the individualÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s ability to pay. For a lot of people, $50 is a vast some, while others could practically wipe their asses with it and lose nothing. Modest depends on the individual.