Man shoots black kid cops do nothing

[Dantes Virgil]

@ Smurfette Principle  Because you can totally judge everything, having been there, right?  We're getting what is being told to the media.  We can try to assume what happened.  But we can't be sure.  But it's really silly to use skittles as proof of innocence.  I mean come on, he was drinking iced tea and he had skittles in his pockets -- how could he possibly be anything other than pure as the driven snow, right?  That's all I'm remarking on here.  My original comment stands.  Do you think he has to be carrying deadly weapons to prove a threat to someone else? 

No, I think he has to be doing something threatening in order to prove a threat. Please explain how walking past someone's house is threatening.

That's not what is being alleged.  Why reduce the argument to something convenient for one side or the other?

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

Dante's Virgil and Nickerson are also making a judgement about the circumstances of the case. They are stating that we don't know whether or not Zimmerman had justification to use deadly force. In doing so they are ignoring some important points.

1. The shooting did not take place in the store, the place that Zimmerman was supposedly defending.

2. Zimmerman followed his victim out of the store and pursued him prior the point where he proceeded to use deadly force.

It's rather hard to believe that this was a cut and dried case of self defense when the shooter was stalking his victim!

[sandman]

Well, hypothetically if I saw someone I did not know, whose face was possibly deliberately obscured by a hood, slowly walking past my house late at night and apparently paying a lot of undue attention to my house, and perhaps walked past it several times....I may well find that threatening. Now, it certainly does not seem like anything along these lines was occurring in this case, but it is hypothetically possible to be threatened by someone walking by ones house. At least in theory. If you were already kinda paranoid.

[m52nickerson]

Quote from the sites you cite: "Many States require specific types of training or certification from a professional association." That specific training is, in most states, provided by the police academy and results in the dispatcher being a badged officer. (Although not, it must be acknowledged, a patrol or street officer.)

The other site you list is the requirements for a dispatcher in Georgia....not a state known for its high requirements for public service. Hell, in Georgia you can actually qualify for work as a substitute teacher in a high school with no college at all, only a standard high school diploma.

But if you mean that the dispatcher is an officer in the same sense that a partolman is, then no, the dispatcher is not that sort of officer, but they are, at minimum, almost always deputized.

As I said a quick search.

Here is the job listing for the 911 operator for Orange County FL.  It is listed under civilian positions.

http://www.ocso.com/EmploymentInfo/CivilianPositions/tabid/98/Default.aspx

I'm just not seeing where 911 operators are police officers.

[m52nickerson]

Dante's Virgil and Nickerson are also making a judgement about the circumstances of the case. They are stating that we don't know whether or not Zimmerman had justification to use deadly force. In doing so they are ignoring some important points.

1. The shooting did not take place in the store, the place that Zimmerman was supposedly defending.

2. Zimmerman followed his victim out of the store and pursued him prior the point where he proceeded to use deadly force.

It's rather hard to believe that this was a cut and dried case of self defense when the shooter was stalking his victim!

What case are you talking about?  Zimmerman was not defending a store. 

[Dantes Virgil]

I guess my comments boil down to the fact that I'm not willing to convict someone because the person who died had Skittles in his pocket.  I'm also not willing to say that Zimmerman did the right thing.  I intensely dislike when these discussions seem to boil to down to "us" vs. "them."  I find that extremely unproductive and somewhat strawman-ish. 

This is also the first I've heard of him defending a store.  None of the articles/blogs I've read have mentioned a store.  But be that as it may, just because the victim didn't get shot in the store itself means exactly nothing with this stupid law in place.  And incidentally, I've had people casing my own home -- my boyfriend has most certainly followed them to see what the feck they were about.  If that's "stalking" so be it.  They "stalked" the place first.

I'm not willing to try this case in the media and I'm not willing to put a man away over iced tea and Skittles.  If some of you are, that's not justice either.

[sandman]

Well, it does seem that Orange County does not seem to officially deputize its 911 operators, but that doesn't change the fact that when you call 911 you are talking to the police.

But the whole thing is really kind of moot anyway since it seems that Zimmerman was calling a non-emergency number anyway to report the "suspicious" character he was following. In any case, Zimmerman is an ass. Why call the police in the first place if you are just going to ignore what they say?

This whole incident seems like a perfect storm of idiocy and incompetence. Between the racist idiocy of Zimmerman, the (apparently) confrontational reaction of the victim, the incompetence of the police, and the utter idiocy of Florida state law, this entire scenario was fucked from the start.

[Dantes Virgil]

^^ Agreed.

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

Dante's Virgil and Nickerson are also making a judgement about the circumstances of the case. They are stating that we don't know whether or not Zimmerman had justification to use deadly force. In doing so they are ignoring some important points.

1. The shooting did not take place in the store, the place that Zimmerman was supposedly defending.

2. Zimmerman followed his victim out of the store and pursued him prior the point where he proceeded to use deadly force.

It's rather hard to believe that this was a cut and dried case of self defense when the shooter was stalking his victim!

What case are you talking about?  Zimmerman was not defending a store.

Ya got me, no store.

But he was pursued before he was shot right? The audio recording bears that out!

[Dantes Virgil]

Yes, that seems to be the case.

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

And incidentally, I've had people casing my own home -- my boyfriend has most certainly followed them to see what the feck they were about.  If that's "stalking" so be it.  They "stalked" the place first.

There's a world of difference between that and actually running after someone. As I said from the audio recordings this seems to be what happened.

If you see someone acting suspiciously outside your home and ask them what the fuck they are doing there is a world of difference between that and running after them with the wrath of God in your eyes!

[ironbite]

I have looked at all the facts available for this case.  Every shred of evidence and every link that's been presented.  If I was on the jury and the prosecutors made their arguments, the defense made their arguments, I'd argue that Zimmermen is guilty of manslaughter in the very least and murder at the worst.  I'm not knee-jerking here.  I'm making a very informed decision about what's been presented so far.  So far, I see a white(hispanic) man hunt down and murder a black kid because of his race, nothing more, nothing less.

Ironbite-not sure exactly how you can draw any other conclusion.

[m52nickerson]

I have looked at all the facts available for this case.  Every shred of evidence and every link that's been presented.  If I was on the jury and the prosecutors made their arguments, the defense made their arguments, I'd argue that Zimmermen is guilty of manslaughter in the very least and murder at the worst.  I'm not knee-jerking here.  I'm making a very informed decision about what's been presented so far.  So far, I see a white(hispanic) man hunt down and murder a black kid because of his race, nothing more, nothing less.

Ironbite-not sure exactly how you can draw any other conclusion.

Okay, let me ask you which part of the "stand your ground law" did he not meet?

"A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

If Zimmerman was acting unlawfully what law did he break?

Was he not attacked?

Was he someplace he had no right to be?

Do you think he did not believe he was going to be harmed?

See that's the whole problem, you have to look at it through this law.

For the most part I agree with Sandman, the whole situation is fucked up.  In large part because of this law.  Cause of that I can't condemn the cops, nor the state attorney.  Plus within this law I can condemn Zimmerman unless more evidence comes out suggesting that at the moment he pulled the trigger he did not fear for his life or that he was the one that attacked Martin.

[ironbite]

You take that law out and it becomes clear cut.  Even with the law the situation is clear.

Ironbite-Florida is fucked up.

[Sylvana]

Listening to the recordings, makes it appear less like a racially motivated hate crime. Zimmerman did not seem to notice the victims colour as much as his clothing. He was concerned that he was hiding a weapon because he had his hands in the front pouch of his hoodie. His 911 call description is that of someone who honestly just seems to be reporting a suspicious person. What bugs me is that he notices the victim looking around, and then the victim starts to run, at which point he pursues. He actively runs after the victim as can be heard by the sound of the wind on the microphone in the phone. However, before the attack actually happens he has stopped running and hangs up the phone.

Now, in the other recording you can hear someone screaming quite loudly in the background, and that is screaming right up until the gunshot sound. Based on the voice of the suspect, I would be inclined to say it was more the victim screaming. However, I don't think it is solid enough as my assessment on the voice is far from good. I am aware that peoples voices sound very different when screaming. The voice in my opinion though sounds of a higher pitch than Zimmermans voice.

As for the suspicious behavior of the victim, it makes sense. He was visiting his father with this brother. They were not where they normally go, as they were at his fathers girlfriends house. Given it was dark and raining it is quite likely that he was a little lost in the complex area, and looking at the houses to find the correct house number. Running away from zimmerman also makes sense because at that point zimmerman is watching him while on the phone and looks pretty suspicious too.

I think I would move towards manslaughter instead of murder. However as has been stated, Florida's messed up laws mean that this guy will walk and open a whole slew op opportunities for this law to be abused.