Why college?

[rookie]

So talking about Sanders and his, his campaign promises,  of free higher education got me thinking about why people are going to college. That is a serious question, by the way. And I'm talking outside of fields like sciences and engineering and law, medicine, education, things where you really do need that degree. If one is getting an English major, or communications, why college? Is it because we're supposed to? Do students not see the crippling debt that accompanies it? Do they believe there are jobs waiting for a person with a medieval literature degree? Are the campuses practicing less than forthright recruiting techniques? Why is that the way and not a trade school? Or the age old staying in the mail room and working your way up?

My thinking is if I figured out that part, maybe I would see why it should be free and a right rather than the privilege is been in the past.

[R. U. Sirius]

Because fewer and fewer non-service industries are even looking at applicants who lack "required" college credentials, whether for hire or for promotion. This is also why working your way up from the mailroom has largely become a pipe dream without said college credentials.

[dpareja]

It's also because high school has been getting watered down over the last few decades, so graduating from high school is no longer seen as the accomplishment it once was and an undergraduate degree is the new standard.

As for trade schools, they're great, but they don't have the cachet that "proper" post-secondary institutions do.

[RavynousHunter]

I'll answer these one by one, as best (and succinctly) as I can.

So talking about Sanders and his, his campaign promises,  of free higher education got me thinking about why people are going to college. That is a serious question, by the way. And I'm talking outside of fields like sciences and engineering and law, medicine, education, things where you really do need that degree. If one is getting an English major, or communications, why college?

Because a degree, any degree is demonstrably proven to improve lifetime earning potential, which directly translates (up to a point) to improved quality of life.

Is it because we're supposed to?

Yes and no.  Socially speaking, going to college is expected except in a very few rare cases, which usually boil down to "my dad owns a dealership," and you are rather heavily stigmatized if you don't.  Also, many jobs (at least, ones beyond service industry or retail) require a college degree before they'll even look at your resume, even if the job doesn't even require anything related to the degree or is operating on a layman level.

Do students not see the crippling debt that accompanies it?

We are painfully aware of the debt, thank you.  There are no socially accepted (or legal), viable alternatives.  Its either debt, or cleaning shit for a living with a narrow (read: VERY NARROW) hope of maybe getting promoted to just cleaning piss, instead.

Do they believe there are jobs waiting for a person with a medieval literature degree?

Some do, yes.  Mostly, these are the kids from well-off families who either have their own jobs pretty much waiting for them to graduate, or those who have so little actual perspective that they think such a pointless degree will get them much of anything.

Are the campuses practicing less than forthright recruiting techniques?

YES.  University of Phoenix, DeVry, the list goes on.  For-profit colleges are the only ones that actively recruit at places OTHER than community college campuses.  While state-run (read: real) universities do occasionally hit up high schools, the incidence is quite rare.  Diploma mills have ads all over the place, specifically geared to making you believe that you absolutely have to have a degree from them to get anywhere in life.  Then, they fuck you over by giving you a worthless piece of paper and an even greater debt encumbrance than if you went to a real school.

Why is that the way and not a trade school?

Trade school certifications are typically for very niche things like plumbing, boilermaking, and other apprenticeship-based programmes.

Or the age old staying in the mail room and working your way up?

That pipe dream died with my generation, if not before.  While still technically possible, you can NOT count on such a thing happening.  Its not just hiring that is diploma-based, but also promotion.  "Working your way up" simply does not happen, anymore.  At least, when you look at the aggregate, instead of individual accounts.

My thinking is if I figured out that part, maybe I would see why it should be free and a right rather than the privilege is been in the past.

Education is a right.  It does not matter what age you are or what level of education you seek.  That my country feels otherwise goes to show what savages those in power really are.

[The_Queen]

I just went to college, and particularly law school, because I really hate myself, yet somehow feel as though I am better than everyone else.

I mostly just hate myself.

[pyro]

I just went to college, and particularly law school, because I really hate myself, yet somehow feel as though I am better than everyone else.

I mostly just hate myself.

And I'm talking outside of fields like sciences and engineering and law, medicine, education, things where you really do need that degree.

[The_Queen]

I just went to college, and particularly law school, because I really hate myself, yet somehow feel as though I am better than everyone else.

I mostly just hate myself.

And I'm talking outside of fields like sciences and engineering and law, medicine, education, things where you really do need that degree.

Sarcasm truly is a dying art.

[rookie]

I guess my big issue is the assumption that college is for everybody. I know if I went I would have probably od'd or ended up in jail. I know this to be true. At 18, I wasn't ready. And I'm sure you have seen people like me in your classes.

I remember Mrs. Rookie worked her way through school. I remember kids in my graduating class (high school) who's parents payed their way through. Of course, that's from back when you could do that. It's my understanding that student loans are no longer an option but a requirement. That even if you have the money (one way or another) you'd still have to fill out student loan paperwork.

I know degrees are supposed to be a way up. Once upon a time that was true. Once upon a time, in my father's time, a degree meant a job. That's not the case. Now I see kids graduating with   debt that's usually reserved for mortgages or debilitating illnesses treatment and a degree. That's it. No opportunities, no way up. A collection of fun, yet hazy, memories.

It seems like the more people who have a degree, the less a degree is worth. You graduated State U? Great. So did a buttload of people. So again, that degree is kinda meaningless when applying for a job because everyone else had one too. It is exactly what a high school diploma was 25 years ago. Except way more expensive. 

RH, I want to thank you for answering all that. There are a couple things I want clarification on. You mentioned that trade schools are for niche things like plumbing. I get that, and applaud it. Most unions run their own schools and will have a job for you. To put it another way, plumberss teach people to be plumbers, then help get them set up with other plumbers to apprentice with. And to claim is a niche thing is kind of misleading in that you imply a degree is not. A masters in English won't help someone who wants to become accountant. Or a stockbroker. So there's that.

Working your way up, you admit it's still technically possible. I'll admit you need to have one hell of a work ethic to pull that off. It's what I did til I got laid off. And I did it again a few years later in a different field. Because I had the work ethic, drive, and frankly I didn't have much of a choice. Hungry kids are one hell of a motivation to do better to get more.

I do want to address your attitude of either get a degree or clean shit for a living. Or, as I was told, dig ditches. There have been two different scenarios I've cleaned shit, as well as digging ditches. At home and in the army. I dug ditches to mix in compost for gardens at home and my kids when they were babies. And the army. That's it.

I asked about shady recruitment prsctices. A couple reasons I asked about them. First, I know of a few people who were told if they went through a certain program, they'd come out and make 40k a year. Culinary program at a local college for anyone interested. Anyways, the first time us line cooks heard that we laughed for a good 10 minutes. Then the exec chef/owner patted him on the head and walked away laughing. The second time I heard it I got worried. Yes, those jobs exist. But they are extremely few and far between, and for people who have anyway been in the industry for 10+ years. The other reason I ask about shady practices is sports. But that's another topic for another day.

Something seems very off with the situation. If like to see something happen, the system seems to be broken. It seems like if it wasn't a governed doing it, it would be a scam or some sort of con job. I see people graduating. They have salaries and career paths in mind that just don't mesh with reality. And some of them are just as ignorant as when they started. But I guess that'll be with anything.

[RavynousHunter]

Don't get me wrong, I think the situation is utterly, irredeemably fucked.  Work is less a meritocracy and more a political game.  I'll cop to some degrees being niche, like English or Art History, but there are degrees that are more widely applicable, most notably the STEM degrees.  I know you discounted them, but I'm ignoring that to make a point.  There's a reason why STEM degrees typically get you more bang for your buck.  We, as a society, are becoming more and more integrated with technology and, as that integration grows, so does our need for people capable of discovering new ways to do things (scientists) and implementing them (engineers), and both of those require at least a working understanding of post-algebra mathematics.  The more software we use, the more software engineers we need to both create new solutions to upcoming problems, but also to maintain the software we've already got in the wild.  That is why STEM majors do better than most.

Are degrees' value diluted as the number of people that acquire them increases?  Yes and no.  Again, it depends on a number of factors, including the type of degree you get.  A degree which casts a wider net makes you more likely to get a better job than one which is either narrow or non-existent.  It also depends on the ratio of people who get into a major vs those who actually get a degree in it.  Demand increases with population, and this creates breathing room for said ratio, which is affected by the long-term viability of a given degree path.  The more staying power a degree path has, the higher a ratio of people can get said degree before the supply exceeds demand and, thus, oversaturating the market.

That you managed to move up without a degree is good, but it is very, very far from the norm.  Work ethic only goes so far.  What gets you farther is either a) what kind of education you have to your name, and/or b) how well you play office politics and make connections.  If you can do the latter well, you can make up for the former, but having the former gives you an automatic advantage.  People hire, promote, and give raises/bonuses to people they like.  Part of that is how well you do your job, but an equal (if not greater) part of that is just how well you play ball.  Sometimes, that means kissing ass and brown-nosing, even when you know your boss is an incompetent bellend.  The fewer waves you make, the more ass you kiss, and yes, the harder you work, the more likely you are to move up.

[mellenORL]

We're in a period of change and adaptation. Online education is becoming a true threat over time to brick and mortar universities, which themselves are offering more degree credits for course work online. Universities can continue to save costs on infrastructure, admin and staff by increasing the amount of non-lab course work to online. Frankly, anything that gets rid of over-paid suits on campus is a good thing. The student loan system itself is a big money generator via the loans' interest rate. To me, it would make sense that every industry and service sector come up with job specific competency exams and use those to hire, rather than insisting on a college degree as a litmus test to avoid incompetent morons. For a modern society to thrive and compete within the Information Age, and I would add that we are mostly in a Technology Explosion Era, I do think that tuition reform & tax support of state university students makes sense in general. Not every one is going to be able to pass scholastic entrance requirements, so it's not like we're tossing tax money onto a funeral pyre.

[Ironchew]

So talking about Sanders and his, his campaign promises,  of free higher education got me thinking about why people are going to college. That is a serious question, by the way. And I'm talking outside of fields like sciences and engineering and law, medicine, education, things where you really do need that degree. If one is getting an English major, or communications, why college? Is it because we're supposed to? Do students not see the crippling debt that accompanies it? Do they believe there are jobs waiting for a person with a medieval literature degree? Are the campuses practicing less than forthright recruiting techniques? Why is that the way and not a trade school? Or the age old staying in the mail room and working your way up?

My thinking is if I figured out that part, maybe I would see why it should be free and a right rather than the privilege is been in the past.

I'm going to be brutally honest here. You could have researched this and figured it out yourself, but it sounds like you're trying to push our buttons and goad an entertaining reaction out of us.

Direct question, rookie: What are your motives for this thread? Why state from the beginning that some degrees are degrees "you really do need" and make that useless distinction between marketable and unmarketable endeavors?

[rookie]

Direct answer Ironchew. I can read reports, this is true. However, I can get far more from people I know and know me. When dealing with friends, which is how I think of most of you guys here, it's easier for me. Most here are familiar with how I am when I'm not sure the best way to ask a question. And I'm familiar enough to read between lines when looking at responses.

Why make the distinction between "professional" degrees and not? Because I know that one cannot practice law without a law degree and passing the bar. I know one cannot practice engineering without the appropriate degrees. And medical arts. And education. And STEM. By the way, screw you for not thinking I didn't know that, or else you wouldn't have asked the question that way, asshole.
My motives are my own. But it's really there in the OP.

Direct question back. What have I done in the past that would have you.question my motives?

[Ironchew]

Well, my take on "Why college?" has to do with basic survival. Unemployment puts people in destitute poverty, and the full-time jobs you can get that pay a living wage keep on raising the barriers to entry. It used to be a high school diploma, now it's a college degree. Pretty soon even a college degree may not be enough.

If we were to provide a strong social safety net -- say, a basic income for everybody so that they could survive with the basic amenities while unemployed, I think you'd see people make smarter decisions. Maybe not the decisions our economic overlords would want us to make, but they would be decisions unhindered by all the cognitive biases that accompany the pressing need to find shelter and avoid hunger or death.

EDIT:

Direct question back. What have I done in the past that would have you.question my motives?

I misunderstood the tone of your post and I assumed your motives were to stir things up. I apologize for misreading it.

[Sleepy]

I think others have answered the question well. A Bachelor's Degree has rapidly become the new high school diploma, the standard that almost all of us are expected to abide by as we become adults. It's extremely difficult to escape a retail setting if you have no degree, and dealing with the public for several decades is something that most people want to avoid. Therefore, people enter college because there are few other options.

Choosing a major in college is difficult because you're essentially choosing how your life will play out for years to come. STEM degrees are great for those who enjoy those fields, but what about folks who don't? In my experience, we are encouraged to pursue our dreams throughout our lives by our parents, teachers, and other figures, regardless of how realistic they may be. Combine that type of upbringing with the near-requirement that college has become, and the result is a market over-saturated with folks who have degrees that aren't particularly applicable to positions that are in-demand. This is not to say that it's wrong to study things like literature or art history - it's just that they likely won't result in a great job for you in our society, and will probably bury you in debt.

I think some people are bothered by the tone of your post because, well, we're all acutely aware of the cost of college, the drawbacks of a liberal arts degree that will likely be less valued, and the "just work your way up" strategy that is often thrown at us. It's extremely difficult to deal with, especially if you're unsure of what career path you want to take.

For the record, I ended up obtaining a computer science degree, but I nearly chose an English degree because I had no idea what I wanted to do. Tons of people go with a non-STEM degree because their parents pressure them to do SOMETHING and they don't know what else to do. It sucks.

[rookie]

As to my tone or motivation, I have several kids that are going to be dealing with higher learning in the not too distant future. (It'll start in 7 years and go for the next decade after.)  The system looks very very broken from where I sit. When a necessity  (apparently) costs more than 10 years living expenses  (including mortgage), I worry for them. All of them.

Maybe working ones way up is the wrong turn of phrase. I meant working your way up to a comfortable life. I know you aren't going to start entry level and rise to CEO. But I can cover my needs and a good deal of my wants. That's all I meant.

Sleepy, if I can give you a piece of advice I had to experience to learn. If your unsure what career path to take, one will find you. If one doesn't make that decision, that person will find themselves somewhere looking around going "Well shit".

ETA: I asked these questions because I see the process as broken, as not working. But there's a very good chance that the system is not broken. I'm starting to wonder if the system is just not set up to do what it is we want. The same way my buddy's Corvette isn't busted, it's just the wrong vehicle to help me move a couch. So I was looking to see why people are doing this. Is it really busted or are we asking for things it was never designed to do? I'm trying to figure out the future of/for my kids. I'm scared for them right now. I'm trying to either still my fears or gird my loins.