Author Topic: Worst of Social Justice  (Read 1551498 times)

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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #3480 on: April 27, 2014, 03:32:20 pm »
Oh yes, evil Doctor Niam, taking a health class and learning how damaging this lifestyle of obesity is.

The fact is, being queer, despite what the right wing vomits forth, has no innate health risks while obesity does in fact have health risks, and should not be celebrated, due to these real, scientifically documented health hazards.

But good going equalizing being gay to being fat, by the way. I could go into the logical implications, but that would take forever.

The fact is the research has shown the truth, and I simply say this truth. To me, it does not matter if I am seen as a douche or cruel or a "shitlord" so long as I know who has done the research.

Of course being obese is not healthy, but honestly fat people already know that. So there's no reason to constantly point it out to them as if they're too stupid to realize it.

Not to mention that a lot of people use this to justify outright bullying of fat people so, no offense niam, I'm actually siding with fancy and Osama on this.
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Offline Sleepy

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #3481 on: April 27, 2014, 03:35:28 pm »
I think it's rude to constantly point out "hurr, that's unhealthy", but that doesn't mean it's wrong to confront a loved one about it because you're concerned about their health. It's silly to have a black-and-white "you can never talk to people about it unless you are a physician" rule.
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Offline Ironchew

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #3482 on: April 27, 2014, 04:02:26 pm »
Also being fat isn't a disease, it can cause health conditions like high blood pressure and the same things that cause you to be fat can cause diabetes, but it's entirely possible to be fat and not have either of those things.

Speaking as someone who is morbidly obese, yes, obesity is a disease. It can optionally present with comorbidities like high blood pressure and diabetes, but saying it's not a disease entirely ignores the concept of what a disease is.

I think it's rude to constantly point out "hurr, that's unhealthy", but that doesn't mean it's wrong to confront a loved one about it because you're concerned about their health. It's silly to have a black-and-white "you can never talk to people about it unless you are a physician" rule.

Obesity remains a disease that is difficult to treat with our current knowledge of medicine; otherwise, we wouldn't be having this discussion as nearly everyone would have a healthy fat content and they would be in no danger of gaining any of it back. There's a difference between supporting someone as they try to reverse this disease and treating them with contempt, which is all the rage in society at large.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #3483 on: April 27, 2014, 04:11:10 pm »
Obesity remains a disease that is difficult to treat with our current knowledge of medicine; otherwise, we wouldn't be having this discussion as nearly everyone would have a healthy fat content and they would be in no danger of gaining any of it back. There's a difference between supporting someone as they try to reverse this disease and treating them with contempt, which is all the rage in society at large.

Also, this.
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Offline niam2023

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #3484 on: April 27, 2014, 04:20:46 pm »
Oh yes, evil Doctor Niam, taking a health class and learning how damaging this lifestyle of obesity is.

The fact is, being queer, despite what the right wing vomits forth, has no innate health risks while obesity does in fact have health risks, and should not be celebrated, due to these real, scientifically documented health hazards.

But good going equalizing being gay to being fat, by the way. I could go into the logical implications, but that would take forever.

The fact is the research has shown the truth, and I simply say this truth. To me, it does not matter if I am seen as a douche or cruel or a "shitlord" so long as I know who has done the research.

Having done the research still doesn't give you the right to act like a street preacher toward people.  I still maintain that there's nothing immoral about being unhealthy for any reason and treating people badly because of any health issue they might have is a dick move, especially when the people you're being a dick to are already typically seen as unattractive and undesirable.  You don't like the metaphor I used, that's fine.  I wasn't saying the two were equivalent, just equivalently stupid.  If you want something more similar, try comparing your crappy ass statements to the age-old 'just stop being poor' or 'just stop being depressed' "advice" that people who deal with those issues constantly get.  After all, being mentally ill and/or poor are also consistently shown to cause and correlate with being unhealthy and dying early and are seen as things you can just magically 'end' almost as often when people don't want to feel guilty for acting superior over others.

 Those two things are generally less visible though, and are therefore less easy for people to be personally offended by, which is probably also why you don't often see people claiming to just be concerned about people's health when demanding that they just magically stop being depressed or trying to convince them to invest in a worthless degree or their crappy penny stock.

I simply feel that, with how close my father came to a deadly health incident due to being obese - specifically, a problem with his spine, I cannot abide by Body Positivity and the folks on Tumblr that seem to voice opinions stating that they feel fine at high weights and that health issues and crises are ableist / fatphobic lies. Like it would be okay for anyone to be overweight and not expect serious health issues in their future.

With the health class I'm taking in college, I simply feel its my responsibility to contradict the Positivity movement.

The Body Positivity and Fat Acceptance movements spread poisonous lies that are worsening an already bad problem.

Though I was bullied myself, in my perspective, simply telling people who are online who relish in their fatness and how they "accept" it is not bullying. Its simply stating facts and scientifically observed data.

I do not encourage treating fat people with contempt. Contempt is what I reserve for people who as I covered earlier relish in their high weight and tell people it is okay and healthy to be big and to get bigger.
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Offline Sleepy

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #3485 on: April 27, 2014, 04:22:54 pm »
I never said anything disagreeing with Ironchew's point. It's just important to be able to discuss the matter with a loved one, given the health risks.
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Offline fancy_kitten

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #3486 on: April 27, 2014, 04:36:15 pm »
Oh yes, evil Doctor Niam, taking a health class and learning how damaging this lifestyle of obesity is.

The fact is, being queer, despite what the right wing vomits forth, has no innate health risks while obesity does in fact have health risks, and should not be celebrated, due to these real, scientifically documented health hazards.

But good going equalizing being gay to being fat, by the way. I could go into the logical implications, but that would take forever.

The fact is the research has shown the truth, and I simply say this truth. To me, it does not matter if I am seen as a douche or cruel or a "shitlord" so long as I know who has done the research.

Having done the research still doesn't give you the right to act like a street preacher toward people.  I still maintain that there's nothing immoral about being unhealthy for any reason and treating people badly because of any health issue they might have is a dick move, especially when the people you're being a dick to are already typically seen as unattractive and undesirable.  You don't like the metaphor I used, that's fine.  I wasn't saying the two were equivalent, just equivalently stupid.  If you want something more similar, try comparing your crappy ass statements to the age-old 'just stop being poor' or 'just stop being depressed' "advice" that people who deal with those issues constantly get.  After all, being mentally ill and/or poor are also consistently shown to cause and correlate with being unhealthy and dying early and are seen as things you can just magically 'end' almost as often when people don't want to feel guilty for acting superior over others.

 Those two things are generally less visible though, and are therefore less easy for people to be personally offended by, which is probably also why you don't often see people claiming to just be concerned about people's health when demanding that they just magically stop being depressed or trying to convince them to invest in a worthless degree or their crappy penny stock.

I simply feel that, with how close my father came to a deadly health incident due to being obese - specifically, a problem with his spine, I cannot abide by Body Positivity and the folks on Tumblr that seem to voice opinions stating that they feel fine at high weights and that health issues and crises are ableist / fatphobic lies. Like it would be okay for anyone to be overweight and not expect serious health issues in their future.

With the health class I'm taking in college, I simply feel its my responsibility to contradict the Positivity movement.

The Body Positivity and Fat Acceptance movements spread poisonous lies that are worsening an already bad problem.

Though I was bullied myself, in my perspective, simply telling people who are online who relish in their fatness and how they "accept" it is not bullying. Its simply stating facts and scientifically observed data.

I do not encourage treating fat people with contempt. Contempt is what I reserve for people who as I covered earlier relish in their high weight and tell people it is okay and healthy to be big and to get bigger.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere reasonable.  If you really want to help people, that's great.  In my experience though, the FA movement and especially the body positivity movement exist to protect people who have dealt with constantly being dumped on, possibly in addition to whatever health issues they are dealing with.  Putting honest health information out there is fine, but you can do that without calling out people for trying to feel good about their bodies.  Most of the people you're calling out already deal with low self confidence and have heard whatever you have to say many times already.  And really, if you inform someone about health problems you think they have or are at risk for and they tell you they're fine, I'm still not convinced you shouldn't just leave it at that.

As an aside, the body positivity movement in general isn't about celebrating obesity.  There is no non-cultural reason why women should feel bad for having leg hair, or men should feel bad for... I can't think of any male-specific traits that are cause for ridicule, but you get what I'm saying.  Also, there's a big difference between being what's typically considered fat and legitimately being obese to an unhealthy degree.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #3487 on: April 27, 2014, 06:24:21 pm »
I think the real purpose of the BA movement is to not treat fat (and also the lack of fat) as something to be ridiculed and mocked.  And also to stop the ridicule of people who actually like that.  (That's not to say people don't take it too far.)

I mean, yeah, I don't like being fat because I miss having stamina, and being fat makes it harder to get it back.

But ultimately, you wouldn't ridicule someone for having health issues, so why should it be okay if that health issue is over/underweight?
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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #3488 on: April 27, 2014, 07:18:08 pm »
Basically, there's a difference between promoting healthy decisions in the general populace/expressing concern for a loved one's health, and attaching self worth or worthiness of respect to the size and shape of a person's body. There's also a fine line between recognizing the health risks associated with obesity and assuming that every health problem experienced by a fat person relates to their weight.
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Offline Ghoti

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #3489 on: April 27, 2014, 07:22:34 pm »
I think the real purpose of the BA movement is to not treat fat (and also the lack of fat) as something to be ridiculed and mocked.  And also to stop the ridicule of people who actually like that.  (That's not to say people don't take it too far.)

I mean, yeah, I don't like being fat because I miss having stamina, and being fat makes it harder to get it back.

But ultimately, you wouldn't ridicule someone for having health issues, so why should it be okay if that health issue is over/underweight?
This. The body-acceptance movement (at least, the type that doesn't end up in this thread) is about recognizing that there are no "wrong" or "inferior" bodies as long as the person inside is comfortable and happy. While there are recognized health risks to being overweight, the assholes who shout "fatass!" as they drive past a fat girl don't care about them: they care about shaming someone for having a body that they find personally unacceptable.
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Offline ironbite

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #3490 on: April 27, 2014, 08:37:07 pm »


Holy. Shit.

I don't understand how this is even considered "social justice".  Isn't this basically a campaign to harass and shame people over their sexual preferences?  "You aren't naturally attracted to people who look like me, therefore you are evil and must change your preferences to what I find acceptable."

Good lord, when someone says they're not physically attracted to me, I don't assume there's some nefarious oppressive belief to it, I just assume I'm simply not their type.

Why is this "social justice" you ask?  Because this is what the SJWs think everything will lead to.

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Offline niam2023

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #3491 on: April 27, 2014, 09:11:29 pm »
Correct on that, the body acceptance movement I find worthy of contempt is the one Tumblr puked out - the bastardization.

I do not recall ever shouting fatass at people or otherwise randomly shaming people.

I got no issues with people who acknowledge the facts and are working. Its people who lie - knowingly lie - to protect "feels". The Tumblrite variety - "my feelings are more important than facts." And how oblivious they are to how they bend backwards so far they become like the right wing.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2014, 09:16:27 pm by niam2023 »
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Offline Thejebusfire

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #3492 on: April 27, 2014, 10:10:09 pm »


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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #3493 on: April 27, 2014, 10:30:19 pm »
"Man" refers to "Human", lady.

Instead, criticize the use of using "man" to simply refer to "male" when we should be using "wereman".
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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #3494 on: April 27, 2014, 10:52:52 pm »
I think it's rude to constantly point out "hurr, that's unhealthy", but that doesn't mean it's wrong to confront a loved one about it because you're concerned about their health. It's silly to have a black-and-white "you can never talk to people about it unless you are a physician" rule.
There's also the need to distinguish between "mildly chubby" and "potentially has heart conditions"