Worst of Social Justice

[Even Then]

Fine, that wording is a misleading way to state "men need consent education more than women do because society has had (and still occasionally does have) a problem with making men think they're entitled to having sex with women". But the idea is still valid. And your M&M complaint is a false equivalency because 1) men as a social class have insitutionally brought down women and men still have social privilege over women in several aspects and 2) Jews, black people, Muslims and gay people don't have systemic privilege (at least in the West).

Tangentially related, but have any of you ever encountered a gay incel?

[guizonde]

Fine, that wording is a misleading way to state "men need consent education more than women do because society has had (and still occasionally does have) a problem with making men think they're entitled to having sex with women". But the idea is still valid. And your M&M complaint is a false equivalency because 1) men as a social class have insitutionally brought down women and men still have social privilege over women in several aspects and 2) Jews, black people, Muslims and gay people don't have systemic privilege (at least in the West).

Tangentially related, but have any of you ever encountered a gay incel?

i'd like to say that it should be equal consent education. i've been slapped by a girl for refusing her advances politely. her reasoning? "you should be grateful i want to kiss you, you faggot!". but noooo, nevermind the fact that i was in a committed relationship and had no desire to look elsewhere at that time, and while we're at it, let's jut pass over the fact that she thought every single guy was a desperate horndog. even then, i'm sure you can get behind those ideas that it's wrong, right?

as an aside, still not gay, even if i refuse advances from girls when i don't want those aforementioned advances.

once again, even then, an incel is "involuntary celibate", right? just that? no deeper meaning according to your definition? if so, yeah, i met one, once. i think.

[Even Then]

I'm not saying individual cases don't exist where women don't need consent education, I'm talking about wider societal patterns.

And I define incel as "someone who isn't getting sex, believes they are owed sex and it's society's fault they can't get any". For me, it has that "entitled prick" connotation beyond just "someone who can't get any and is sad about that".

[guizonde]

I'm not saying individual cases don't exist where women don't need consent education, I'm talking about wider societal patterns.

And I define incel as "someone who isn't getting sex, believes they are owed sex and it's society's fault they can't get any". For me, it has that "entitled prick" connotation beyond just "someone who can't get any and is sad about that".

first point, douchebags with ego problems exist regardless of gender. too true. got it.

second point. like the mgtows or whatever? oh, in that case, nope don't know any. then again, i don't know too many gays, maybe 6 or 7, tops. and most of them are lesbians.
i do know a lot of frustrated bi's, but that's not really their gripe.

i don't hang out too much with the lgbt crowd, it seems like their sexuality (or lack thereof) is all that matters to them, and i much prefer to talk about other things with people. for instance, my (defunct) band's singer is gay. took us six months to figure it out, because it never came up in conversation until he brought his boyfriend to a party. he was open about it, it just never came up. we were more worried about his distate of alcohol. turned out he just doesn't like the taste. so yeah, normal guy. with the lgbt crowd? i'd have known within five minutes their sexual orientation. six months later, they'd still be only talking about that. "ok, i got the message, you're gay, and i'm cool with that. but what else do you like in life? stoner rock? dance music? science-fiction? anything?" except last time i tried that, i got called out for distracting the club from its "original goal". dammit, it said we were allowed to socialize!
[/rant]

disclaimer: only talking about the one lgbt club in my old university. not generalizing.

edit: no parallels with rob halford, please. he sounded more like layne staley.

[Murdin]

The problem comes from taking it for granted that rape culture even exists in the West.  Statistics don't back up the claim.  The infamous "one in five" statistic comes from a deeply flawed study that defined forced kissing and even attempted forced kissing as outright sexual assault.  Moreover, DoJ statistics show that between 2005 and 2010, only 1.8% of women suffered sexual violence.  Of course, there are unreported cases to consider, but according to RAINN, 68% of rapes go unreported.  That's a large proportion, but it still means that only 3% of American women were raped during that timespan.

Do you seriously view this as a reassuring statistic that debunks the idea of rape culture?

First, learn to high school level math. If 68% of rapes go unreported, then it means the number of reported rape represents 32% of the total number of rape. This gives us a naive estimate of 0.18 / 0.32 = 5.625% of women having been raped between 2005 and 2010, which is somewhat overestimated from the fact that it fails to account for individuals who have reported some, but not all, of their rapes. Your 3% probably comes from 0.18 + 0.68 x 0.18, which is a complete methodological asspull to say the least.

Then again, you don't seem to understand how time works, either. Even when taking your bullshit 3% statistic, even when over-accounting for false reports and the same women being raped multiple times over several 5-year periods... even with the absurdly conservative estimate that 1% of women are first-time victims of rape every 5 years, the lifetime probability still clocks in at over 15%.

But I guess you don't care about the ethical use of statistical data, as long as you can score a point against a theory that displeases you.

[Ultimate Paragon]

The problem comes from taking it for granted that rape culture even exists in the West.  Statistics don't back up the claim.  The infamous "one in five" statistic comes from a deeply flawed study that defined forced kissing and even attempted forced kissing as outright sexual assault.  Moreover, DoJ statistics show that between 2005 and 2010, only 1.8% of women suffered sexual violence.  Of course, there are unreported cases to consider, but according to RAINN, 68% of rapes go unreported.  That's a large proportion, but it still means that only 3% of American women were raped during that timespan.

Do you seriously view this as a reassuring statistic that debunks the idea of rape culture?

First, learn to high school level math. If 68% of rapes go unreported, then it means the number of reported rape represents 32% of the total number of rape. This gives us a naive estimate of 0.18 / 0.32 = 5.625% of women having been raped between 2005 and 2010, which is somewhat overestimated from the fact that it fails to account for individuals who have reported some, but not all, of their rapes. Your 3% probably comes from 0.18 + 0.68 x 0.18, which is a complete methodological asspull to say the least.

Okay, yeah, that was my bad.  However, that doesn't change the fact that rape rates are going down.

Also, I made another mistake: I misread the statistic.  I thought it said 1.8%, but in reality, it said 1.8 per 1,000, i.e. 0.18%.  So that's 0.5625% of women.

Note to self: read sources more carefully when arguing on the Internet.

Then again, you don't seem to understand how time works, either. Even when taking your bullshit 3% statistic, even when over-accounting for false reports and the same women being raped multiple times over several 5-year periods... even with the absurdly conservative estimate that 1% of women are first-time victims of rape every 5 years, the lifetime probability still clocks in at over 15%.

Except the wording describes these women as victims of "sexual violence," not "rape."  That includes threatened and attempted rape.  Don't get me wrong, the numbers are still disturbing, but referring to all of these women as rape victims is disingenuous, to say the least.

Besides, when you consider the fact that I misread the statistics, that number gets much, much smaller.

[ironbite]

OH DAMN!  Murdin slamming it down!

[Ultimate Paragon]

OH DAMN!  Murdin slamming it down!

Did you not read my rebuttal?  Or my source?

[guizonde]

OH DAMN!  Murdin slamming it down!

Did you not read my rebuttal?  Or my source?

dude, it's ironbite. he never reads what you write...

[davedan]

Gui and paragon are you prepared to live with a 1% chance that at some point in your life I'm going to come over and fuck you in the arse? With a 25% chance that when I do I'm going to physically injure you?

Do you think it is something we shouldn't be concerned about?

[ironbite]

OH DAMN!  Murdin slamming it down!

Did you not read my rebuttal?  Or my source?

dude, it's ironbite. he never reads what you write...

Apparently all the times I've said I have him on ignore haven't pierced his mind yet.

Ironbite-maybe this time it'll sink in.

[I am lizard]

Fine, that wording is a misleading way to state "men need consent education more than women do because society has had (and still occasionally does have) a problem with making men think they're entitled to having sex with women". But the idea is still valid. And your M&M complaint is a false equivalency because 1) men as a social class have insitutionally brought down women and men still have social privilege over women in several aspects and 2) Jews, black people, Muslims and gay people don't have systemic privilege (at least in the West).

Tangentially related, but have any of you ever encountered a gay incel?

I will concede partially to Paragon (hurls) and say I feel it should just be "teach people not to rape"

[The_Queen]

Fine, that wording is a misleading way to state "men need consent education more than women do because society has had (and still occasionally does have) a problem with making men think they're entitled to having sex with women". But the idea is still valid. And your M&M complaint is a false equivalency because 1) men as a social class have insitutionally brought down women and men still have social privilege over women in several aspects and 2) Jews, black people, Muslims and gay people don't have systemic privilege (at least in the West).

Tangentially related, but have any of you ever encountered a gay incel?

I will concede partially to Paragon (hurls) and say I feel it should just be "teach people not to rape"

My problem with this is that it devoids the purpose of the statement from its context. Yes, rape of anyone is wrong and morally reprehensible. But, rape is primarily a crime committed by men against women. There is a rape culture in which rapists are given the benefit of every doubt and women are perceived as lying sluts. Speaking from my own experience of being trans, I have lost count how many times I have heard men behind closed doors make rape jokes. The same cannot be said for females.

And I feel that the real problem with divorcing rape from its context is that it allows society to say "rape is wrong" as opposed to taking a look at the underlying cause of rape, which is a patriarchal society that teaches men to be the "aggressive hunter" and to get the girl, sometimes without her consent.

None of this is to say that women cannot rape men, simply to say that it isn't the epidemic that men raping women is. Further, the one thing that has been conveniently absent in these discussions is that most male rape is done by other men, which further highlights that the problem of rape is due to men. Not anything innate to men, that would be silly, but how men are conditioned relative to women.

[niam2023]

And now he's copying Vox Day's arguments, right down to the demonizing male sexuality thing.

[davedan]

Fine, that wording is a misleading way to state "men need consent education more than women do because society has had (and still occasionally does have) a problem with making men think they're entitled to having sex with women". But the idea is still valid. And your M&M complaint is a false equivalency because 1) men as a social class have insitutionally brought down women and men still have social privilege over women in several aspects and 2) Jews, black people, Muslims and gay people don't have systemic privilege (at least in the West).

Tangentially related, but have any of you ever encountered a gay incel?

I will concede partially to Paragon (hurls) and say I feel it should just be "teach people not to rape"

My problem with this is that it devoids the purpose of the statement from its context. Yes, rape of anyone is wrong and morally reprehensible. But, rape is primarily a crime committed by men against women. There is a rape culture in which rapists are given the benefit of every doubt and women are perceived as lying sluts. Speaking from my own experience of being trans, I have lost count how many times I have heard men behind closed doors make rape jokes. The same cannot be said for females.

And I feel that the real problem with divorcing rape from its context is that it allows society to say "rape is wrong" as opposed to taking a look at the underlying cause of rape, which is a patriarchal society that teaches men to be the "aggressive hunter" and to get the girl, sometimes without her consent.

None of this is to say that women cannot rape men, simply to say that it isn't the epidemic that men raping women is. Further, the one thing that has been conveniently absent in these discussions is that most male rape is done by other men, which further highlights that the problem of rape is due to men. Not anything innate to men, that would be silly, but how men are conditioned relative to women.

The fact that people think education can help shows it's not something inherent in men but rather a problem of conditioning.