FSTDT Forums
Community => Society and History => Topic started by: RavynousHunter on September 09, 2015, 09:31:59 am
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As many of you have no doubt noticed, I am a man who will never father children, either biologically or through adoption. I refuse to have them in my life to such a degree, and I will go so far as to literally castrate myself if it comes right down to it. Why? There's lots of reasons actually.
- There's way too many people in this world already. Using the biological process to become a father adds yet another mouth to feed, yet another drain on our ever more limited resources. I view it as selfish to the point of stupidity to reproduce at anything beyond replacement rate.
- With 1, you might think that, then, I'd want to adopt. You are sorely mistaken. I cannot stand children. Babies are disgusting shit factories, toddlers are infuriating, young kids are almost always covered in a layer of filth a millimeter thick, and teenagers are assholes.
- I have a vast swathe of potential psychological and medical ailments I could pass on to a child. Depression, ADHD, borderline personality disorder, histrionic personality disorder, bipolar disorder, brain cancer, schizophrenia, and lupus, just to name a few. The fact I can think even halfway normally, and am not currently fucking dead, is nothing short of a miracle.
- I am extremely uncomfortable around children. Conversing with them is difficult bordering on impossible, depending on their age.
There are more, I'm sure, but you get the idea. I'm not a kid person. Yet, when I reveal this to people, do they treat me with respect? Do they at least admit that I might have a salient point? No. Society has indoctrinated them into believing that they must reproduce. That, without a child, a man isn't really a man and a woman is merely a girl. This is patently ludicrous, yet we're viewed as assholes, at best, pariahs at worst. Why? Well, its because of a system I refer to as the Cult of the Baby.
The Baby Cult has a disturbing fixation on reproduction, going so far as to deny reproductive autonomy to both men and women. Think about it: if you're under 30, what are your chances of a doctor allowing you to choose to remove your reproductive capabilities? Slim to god damned none. What's the bullshit line he throws at you when denying you your right as both an adult and as a paying customer? "You might change your mind, one day." I might also change my mind about not wanting a Prius, too, but that doesn't mean its anywhere near the realm of possibility. Yet, they feel it is not only their right to deny you your autonomy, but their moral obligation. Again, it all comes back to society's distressing fixation on reproduction.
Don't get me wrong, reproduction is a necessary act to maintain a stable population and perpetuate the species. However, I think its fairly safe to say that there are more than enough people, already. If memory serves, there's over seven billion of us. Few things on this planet outnumber us, and not a single other species can match our technological capabilities. If we kept at replacement rate, and nothing more, then we'd still get all the brilliant doctors, scientists, and lawyers the next generation has to offer, but we wouldn't be overburdening our already heavily-taxed natural resources. Yet, even with the threat of imminent overpopulation, with no possible way to solve it as of yet, we still have our basic, primate urge to propagate beyond our ability to sustain ourselves. Those who contain their base, animalistic urges are viewed as cold, hateful, and unfriendly. Ironic, considering a lot of us tend to have the best interests of our entire species in our hearts. But, the Cult persists. Continues to insist that we are the ones that don't care. They hold people like Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar as paragons instead of the unthinking beasts that they are.
Why? We have to evolve. We must evolve. The sooner, the better. Well, that, or find a way to colonize another planet. Probably Mars. Either one would work.
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Personally, I'll never ever have kids because I simply hate kids. Nothing more to it than that, really. Well, I guess if you want a higher reason than that, it's also because I know that as a father I'd be neglectful at best and outright abusive at worst, but that's just a result of me hating kids. Other than that, eh, I'm not going to pretend I'm trying to save the earth by not breeding or anything like that.
That said, boy to I hear you. People who expect you to have kids are utterly insufferable. I wouldn't go so far as to call them a cult (seems just a tad melodramatic, if I'm totally honest), but I can more than understand why you'd want to punch the lot of the smug little cunts in the face. Multiple times. While wearing steel gauntlets.
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Those same people get weird if you have more than the considered norm as well.
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Personally, I'll never ever have kids because I simply hate kids. Nothing more to it than that, really. Well, I guess if you want a higher reason than that, it's also because I know that as a father I'd be neglectful at best and outright abusive at worst, but that's just a result of me hating kids. Other than that, eh, I'm not going to pretend I'm trying to save the earth by not breeding or anything like that.
That said, boy to I hear you. People who expect you to have kids are utterly insufferable. I wouldn't go so far as to call them a cult (seems just a tad melodramatic, if I'm totally honest), but I can more than understand why you'd want to punch the lot of the smug little cunts in the face. Multiple times. While wearing steel gauntlets.
It might be a bit...dramatic, but, at least from where I'm sitting, its at least somewhat accurate. They invite you in with promises of happiness and personal fulfillment (the two biggest arguments I see from people regarding having kids), but the moment you start displaying individual thought, or worse, actively reject their offering, you are shamed for it, if not outright ostracized.
@Rookie: I'll grant ya that, but they still treat you a hell of a lot better than if you decide to have none. Again, look at the Duggars. Whenever its revealed that their sparkly-clean image is little more than a facade, a mountain of people come to their defense, lionizing them as victims of unjust persecution. Its not just Quiverfull whackjobs that do this, either, but otherwise sane, normal people. Its a system of indoctrination every bit as insidious as rabid nationalism, and just as damaging to us as a species.
Thing is, I accept that I'd probably at least be an okay father. Not the best, certainly, but not abusive or intentionally neglectful. I just don't want to be one. I'm much more comfortable being the cool uncle that teaches my brother's kids to troll their parents and light their farts on fire. Bro teaches them how to be productive members of society, I teach 'em how to have fun. I just don't want 'em in my life 24/7. I have a hard enough time taking care of myself.
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i'd love to have kids someday, but since my diagnosis (and my checking the family history), i don't want to pass on my bad brain.
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Personally, I think the demonization of childfree people is sick and appalling. It's a legitimate lifestyle choice, and it doesn't hurt anybody.
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Wouldn't be surprised if we were less trusted than atheists. Then again, being an atheist, I'm likely less trustworthy than Ultra Zombie Hitler-Stalin.
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Children can eat up your spare time like a pack of rabid piranhas. This I'm understanding of and I don't think you're selfish for not wanting children.
But I'll gripe that there are members of the CF community acting like the CF demographic spokesman who give me the impression that I should hide them from the public until they've reached adulthood. I guess it's the mirror of the "pro-family" demographic and that it's not a big slice of the CF crowd, but I happen to take more notice because of complaints like "pictures of children is what spoiler tags are for because they're pressuring me to sprog" are difficult not to take personally.
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Every group has its assholes, that's for sure. However, CF folks' default behaviour isn't to socially outcast those who disagree with them, or treat them like children. Contrast to members of the Baby Cult, who do that almost every single time someone mentions they don't want children. The child-free people who treat others like shit are outliers (really, Firefox? "Outliers" isn't in your dictionary?).
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Every group has its assholes, that's for sure. However, CF folks' default behaviour isn't to socially outcast those who disagree with them, or treat them like children. Contrast to members of the Baby Cult, who do that almost every single time someone mentions they don't want children. The child-free people who treat others like shit are outliers (really, Firefox? "Outliers" isn't in your dictionary?).
They're that rare group, much like the alleged atheists that make a big deal at a restaurant when people at another table are praying.
I'm sure there are a few of them out there, but the trope is born out of a feverish mind searching for persecution where there is none.
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I have a couple of the little monsters and love them dearly but kids really aren't for everyone. Counseling someone with reservations to have a child is one of the most irresponsible things you can do since it's liable to directly fuck up three lives and indirectly fuck up several more when the inevitable shit hits the fan.
What we parents as a group should be doing is saying "look, you have NO idea what you are getting yourself into..."
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Ravynous, do you really get that Baby Cult attitude from everyone who's a parent? Because I could say that the default behavior of parents is that they have rewards from the experience they wouldn't trade, but they wouldn't think you need to be a second class citizen for not agreeing. That's generally what I've experienced in this area.
And while I'll say that I enjoy the rewards that come with parenting, I'd be the last person to look down my nose at you if the tougher moments and lost time are too high a price.
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A lot of the reason why people are so adamant about "you must have children" and why they can't understand why someone wouldn't want them is due to biological instinct. Every species has an innate drive to reproduce, including our own, and despite how far away from our origins we've come, we still feel the same instinct and view people who don't act on it as somehow defective.
I do agree with your reasoning, to be honest, and I would respect someone who chose not to have children much more than someone who wound up having a lot of them for ridiculous reasons like the Duggars. Personally, I'm undecided on whether I want to have children, though at the moment I'm leaning towards not wanting them. My financial situation has never been very stable (a hazard of my career path) and I've made some bad decisions that have left me uncertain as to how to keep proceeding in life. If I can't get my life under control and direct it where I need it to, what makes me qualified to tell someone else how to do the same?
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i'd love to be a father, and more than that, i'd love to be a good father, but i'm just not sure i can pull it off. what's for sure is that if i can't provide stability for any future children (financially, emotionnally, etc...), i'll hold it off until i can.
that's if i take the leap and risk them being cursed with mental illness. my mom's depressive, my sister's bipolar, mental illness runs in the family like usain bolt on the track.
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A lot of the reason why people are so adamant about "you must have children" and why they can't understand why someone wouldn't want them is due to biological instinct. Every species has an innate drive to reproduce, including our own, and despite how far away from our origins we've come, we still feel the same instinct and view people who don't act on it as somehow defective.
Kinda. There's lots of nationalism mixed up in there; just ask people who would normally oppose cult-of-the-baby what they think about countries with zero or negative population growth. Heads explode.
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Ravynous, do you really get that Baby Cult attitude from everyone who's a parent? Because I could say that the default behavior of parents is that they have rewards from the experience they wouldn't trade, but they wouldn't think you need to be a second class citizen for not agreeing. That's generally what I've experienced in this area.
And while I'll say that I enjoy the rewards that come with parenting, I'd be the last person to look down my nose at you if the tougher moments and lost time are too high a price.
While I will agree that most of my arguments stem from anecdotes from my own experiences, as well as those of others like me, the Baby Cult attitude appears to be pervasive in our society. Even if they don't want us ground into the dirt, there are far more subtle ways to ostracize and socially isolate people that do not conform to societal standards of acceptable behaviour, no matter how illogical said standards might be. Much in the same way that I don't have to actually punch someone to be abusive. Its less them beating me with their ideals and more the dismissive looks, the slight yet noticeable smugness in their tone, the whiff of superiority when they subtly denigrate your choice to not further burden our already strained resources. They might not say it, but their bodies and their language betray their true feelings.
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I'm never gonna have children either because
1) I would be a bad dad
2) I'm, like, super asexual
3) There's autism in my family line, I don't wanna pass that on
4) I just want to have a relaxed life without having to take care of children
So, you know, you're not alone. *lays hand on shoulder in solidarity*
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Doesn't hurt that, in the long run, I'll save a lot of money that I can put toward something far more interesting. Like a Dodge Challenger or a walk-in closet that's really a gigantic fridge/meat locker.
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I have kids. First was born when I was 24, so for most of my adult life I've been a parent. Very little experience of being child free. Not American either, so very little idea of the pressures to reproduce that might be in the US. Personally I have always viewed it as a choice. I wanted to have kids. If another person or couple doesn't, well good for them. I am still friends with people who don't have kids. We don't hang around as much, partly because kids take up so much time. But we still get together. What is funny is guys who have just had their first kid telling me about fatherhood.
I have had some experience on the flip side of the prejudice Ravy is talking about. That is people have trusted/accepted me more once they found out I had kids. I think its the realisation that you have conformed to societies expectations and makes people think you're safe.
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I think a big part of the issue is some people feel threatened that you have chosen to follow a different path in life. They followed the traditional baby-making route and may have never considered that not having kids was an option. This forces them to question their life and whether they made the right choices along the way - something that can be extremely painful. Rather than accept this, it's easier for them to bash the child-free person as an idiot who's missing out on the child-related aspects of life, even if those aspects happen to be entirely negative.
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I probably will never have any biological children of my own. (my sisters have already taken care of having children so I'm off the hook forever) But I'd probably adopt some children if I ever feel stable enough to provide for them.
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I would gladly have children one day, provided that my spouse was willing as well. However, I have absolutely no objection to people who don't want kids. We are overpopulated as a species, and let me tell you, I've seen plenty of examples at work of people who should have decided not to be parents, since they suck royally at it.
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Heh, the first thing I thought of when I saw the title was the way a lot of Asian and American cultures reacted to their introduction to Christianity (usually Catholics).
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I've become torn on having bio-kids myself. Turns out that as much as I love kids, pre-verbal babies and toddlers are too stressful for me. I just want to meet their needs BUT THEY CAN'T TELL ME WHAT THEY NEED! All they can do is scream!
At least with a kid who can talk, I can narrow things down. "Are you hurt? Where does it hurt?" They can SAY yes or no to stuff. If they get hungry between meals, they can say "Hungry." If they wanted 5 more minutes on the swings, I can decide if we have time for them to enjoy that 5 minutes. But an infant? They could be hungry, tired, lonely, wet, dry, hot, cold, in pain, or could have just soiled themselves. But whichever thing it is, they can only respond with "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!" I can't cope with "WAAAAAAAH!"
I also wouldn't want to continue my family line because I'm a flaming homosexual whose first instinct when presented with a vagina is to yell limp bizkut lyrics at it in latin in the hopes that it will shrivel and go away like any real demon.
I'm sorry, but this is the funniest LGBT-related sentence I've ever seen posted in the history of anywhere.
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Just for the record, I'd love to actually read Limp Bizkit lyrics in Latin. That sounds oddly awesome.
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Looks left then right. Ok. I'll say it. Sometimes I get jealous. You can just go somewhere. You have disposable income. You can have nice pretty breakable things. I bet the only time Spongebob Squarepants had ever been on your television somebody was on something. The amount of sleep you get is entirely up to you. YOU CAN HAVE A 1967 CAMEO ADD YOUR DAILY DRIVER! And as soon as I can find a dignified way to ask if white sofas are as pretty in real life as they are in the magazines I will ask that. I'm not saying everyone is jealous of you and your child free ways. But, well, I'm guessing everyone at done point lies awake in bed with the lights off staring at the ceiling wondering what if.
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I've become torn on having bio-kids myself. Turns out that as much as I love kids, pre-verbal babies and toddlers are too stressful for me. I just want to meet their needs BUT THEY CAN'T TELL ME WHAT THEY NEED! All they can do is scream!
At least with a kid who can talk, I can narrow things down. "Are you hurt? Where does it hurt?" They can SAY yes or no to stuff. If they get hungry between meals, they can say "Hungry." If they wanted 5 more minutes on the swings, I can decide if we have time for them to enjoy that 5 minutes. But an infant? They could be hungry, tired, lonely, wet, dry, hot, cold, in pain, or could have just soiled themselves. But whichever thing it is, they can only respond with "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!" I can't cope with "WAAAAAAAH!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwxoy9R6WdI
(SFW, but it probably sounds NSFW)
Honestly, if I needed to go to the emergency room, I couldn't guarantee I wouldn't be sounding just like that. Life isn't fun for babies.
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And as soon as I can find a dignified way to ask if white sofas are as pretty in real life as they are in the magazines I will ask that.
Nope. Even without kids, those things attract dirt like flies to shit. My absolute minimum whiteness for any furniture is beige. Anything whiter than that is just asking for trouble.
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Just for the record, I'd love to actually read Limp Bizkit lyrics in Latin. That sounds oddly awesome.
custodi volvens volvens volubilem volubilem
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For me it's real simple. I'm in my forties, my partner is in her forties. She doesn't want to have kids, I'm cool with whatever. She's got my back regardless.
Some people get real leery about that and actually ask "how come you don't want kids..."
Fucking hell children-are-mandatory people, not my bloody uterus -it's my partners and she don't want babbies in it, also I don't fancy being the worlds first pregnant man. I don't get all picky about what you do with your bodies, leave me and hers the fuck alone!
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I feel like a kid who was stupid enough to stumble onto the place where the adults have adult conversations orz
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I feel like a kid who was stupid enough to stumble onto the place where the adults have adult conversations orz
Its cool, I feel that way a lot, myself, lol.
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For me it's real simple. I'm in my forties, my partner is in her forties. She doesn't want to have kids, I'm cool with whatever. She's got my back regardless.
Some people get real leery about that and actually ask "how come you don't want kids..."
Fucking hell children-are-mandatory people, not my bloody uterus -it's my partners and she don't want babbies in it, also I don't fancy being the worlds first pregnant man. I don't get all picky about what you do with your bodies, leave me and hers the fuck alone!
After 40, the chance of having a child with Down's Syndrome increases dramatically, so that's an even better reason to abstain. I'm pretty sure Christian groups are all in favor, however, because then they can have poster kids "Look at me! Look at me! I'm raising the baby you would have murdered, you selfish bitches!"
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I've become torn on having bio-kids myself. Turns out that as much as I love kids, pre-verbal babies and toddlers are too stressful for me. I just want to meet their needs BUT THEY CAN'T TELL ME WHAT THEY NEED! All they can do is scream!
At least with a kid who can talk, I can narrow things down. "Are you hurt? Where does it hurt?" They can SAY yes or no to stuff. If they get hungry between meals, they can say "Hungry." If they wanted 5 more minutes on the swings, I can decide if we have time for them to enjoy that 5 minutes. But an infant? They could be hungry, tired, lonely, wet, dry, hot, cold, in pain, or could have just soiled themselves. But whichever thing it is, they can only respond with "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!" I can't cope with "WAAAAAAAH!"
That part isn't so bad. When did they last eat? Is the diaper dirty? Do they have a high temperature? At that stage it's one of the three. On the other hand, the lost time and money are definitely something you should weigh in on. For me, it's the lost time more than the money because I love my compy games.
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For me it's real simple. I'm in my forties, my partner is in her forties. She doesn't want to have kids, I'm cool with whatever. She's got my back regardless.
Some people get real leery about that and actually ask "how come you don't want kids..."
Fucking hell children-are-mandatory people, not my bloody uterus -it's my partners and she don't want babbies in it, also I don't fancy being the worlds first pregnant man. I don't get all picky about what you do with your bodies, leave me and hers the fuck alone!
After 40, the chance of having a child with Down's Syndrome increases dramatically, so that's an even better reason to abstain. I'm pretty sure Christian groups are all in favor, however, because then they can have poster kids "Look at me! Look at me! I'm raising the baby you would have murdered, you selfish bitches!"
True enough, but here's the thing.
Nobody needs a reason to justify what they don't do with their bodies, full stop.
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I agree with you Tol. Except for perms. Perms are a fucking abomination.
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I agree with you Tol. Except for perms. Perms are a fucking abomination.
what about mullets and aviators? or having a full beard but shaved scalps? or the worst that seems to be the norm with the soccer crowd, shaved side of the head (only hair on crown) with a beard reaching to the top of the ears?
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I agree with you Tol. Except for perms. Perms are a fucking abomination.
You want mandatory fashion sense and ypu want to start at perms? Three words. Clit Tickler Beards. The fuzzy airstrip ones below the lip.
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That's why I just keep a regular beard, and don't go either hipster or full-on mountainman. Seriously, I've yet to see someone have a tire skid on their chin that wasn't a hipster...and who wants one of them goin down under on ya?
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Kinda. There's lots of nationalism mixed up in there; just ask people who would normally oppose cult-of-the-baby what they think about countries with zero or negative population growth. Heads explode.
There's a couple of reasons for this. One, the false paradigm that you need a constantly growing population, not the least of their reasons is to fund the pensioners with enough to keep them above the poverty line. Second, a number of people a looking at a population boom with Muslims and are worried about being made a minority.
Bad paradigms to be sure, but those reasons are ones you'll hear fairly often from the cultists, often without a single moment of thought.
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Gotta keep out-breedin them scary brown folks, after all.
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Gotta keep out-breedin them scary brown folks, after all.
I'm the example!
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Heh. Given how churches in the West are taking a beating in attendance recently due to their complacent and hypocritical attitude, it doesn't surprise me that they're worried about being made a minority.
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Heh. Given how churches in the West are taking a beating in attendance recently due to their complacent and hypocritical attitude, it doesn't surprise me that they're worried about being made a minority.
Of course, instead of even admitting what the real problem is, they attack something completely unrelated. Sounds about right.
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I came here (finally) to point out that the "you will regret not having kids when you are older" sentiment is not without merit and although not everyone will regret not having kids it MIGHT happen and at some point it will be too late.
On the other hand, one of my kids just had 1 hour rage-episode for no obvious reason and she was screaming incoherently and refusing to explain what was troubling her...
Yeah, kids are troublesome and even though our kids have been surprisingly healthy and well behaved in comparison even I and my wife have at one point or another had had enough...
Don't get me wrong, kids are wonderful and I am grateful of having them but I can totally understand why some people don't want to have kids.
Then again, I'm not the kind of person who would go around telling people to have kids. (Unless they come ogling at my babies. At some point the women who fawn over any babies they see become too annoying. GET YOUR OWN DAMN KIDS!)
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Heh. Given how churches in the West are taking a beating in attendance recently due to their complacent and hypocritical attitude, it doesn't surprise me that they're worried about being made a minority.
"Am I so out of touch? No. It's the children that are wrong."
-Principal Seymour Skinner
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I came here (finally) to point out that the "you will regret not having kids when you are older" sentiment is not without merit and although not everyone will regret not having kids it MIGHT happen and at some point it will be too late.
Any merit it may or may not have is lost to the fact that it's always uttered as a threat.
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I came here (finally) to point out that the "you will regret not having kids when you are older" sentiment is not without merit and although not everyone will regret not having kids it MIGHT happen and at some point it will be too late.
Any merit it may or may not have is lost to the fact that it's always uttered as a threat.
Maybe it's just that many of the people around you are assholes. Or maybe you are too defensive and mistake a person making a honest good point into a threat. I simply cannot believe that people always mean it as a threat.
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Um, askold, the main problem with "you will regret having kids when you're older" is that it implies that EVERYBODY eventually wants kids, and that adults younger than the speaker couldn't possibly know what they really want.
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It's better to regret not having kids than to regret having kids/
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It's better to regret not having kids than to regret having kids/
Reasons Why We Need a Like Button, Exhibit #45,514,134.
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Ugh...typo. I made a forward slash instead of a period. Thanks for liking it anyway, RH.