Author Topic: WND vs Google  (Read 9696 times)

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Offline Ironchew

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2014, 02:29:52 am »
Now, should freedom of speech have limits? Sure. Absolutely. Defamation law is one of those - you can't make up a bunch of lies about someone because you don't like them. Do you think one of those limits on freedom of speech should be that speech should not be against corporate interest?

I personally take issue with things being declared as private property that clearly belong to the public; e.g. portions of the electromagnetic spectrum, old copyrighted works, or computational algorithms. Should a board of directors be able to restrict what you say inside their corporate headquarters? Sure. Should they be able to restrict critical means of communication between the public? That's a shady area where a few players can control a community's awareness of just about anything.
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Offline Katsuro

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2014, 02:38:46 am »
First amendment rights are irrlevent.  Unless WND thinks Google is the government.

Freedom of speech only protects you from the athorities penalising you for speaking your mind, it doesn't stop private businesses from deciding they don't want to deal with you anymore.  Google has that right.

Does that mean businesses are allowed to "decide they don't want to deal with you anymore" because of your race/sex/religion/sexual orientation?

That's different though.  For a start, that's not amatter of speech that's a matter of action (If you don't see why I distinquish between the two then then think of why expressing the verbal opinion "I don't think we should let in anymore immigrants" should not result in arrest, but going to a port and physically preventing immigrants from entering the country probably should result in arrest - it's not quite the same but it's just a rough guide to give you the general gist)  Secondly, it's discimination due to an irrational prejudice over an accident of birth;  it's not a refusal to do business because of something you said that the other party finds objectionable and/or fears will harm their image.

If you don't see why I distinquish between the two then then think of why expressing the verbal opinion "I don't think we should let in anymore immigrants" should not result in arrest, but going to a port and physically preventing immigrants from entering the country probably should result in arrest.  I's not quite the same but it's just a rough guide to give you the general gist.

Even so, I actually have mixed feelings over whether private business should be legally allowed to disciminate.  On the one hand it is THEIR business (obviously that doesn't mean they should have legal freedom to do literally whatever the hell they like) but on the other hand I find discimination to be morally abhorant, and any business that did refuse service for no other reason than race or sexual orinentation or whatever can say "goodbye" to my money.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 03:03:34 am by Katsuro »

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2014, 02:58:23 am »
First amendment rights are irrlevent.  Unless WND thinks Google is the government.

Freedom of speech only protects you from the athorities penalising you for speaking your mind, it doesn't stop private businesses from deciding they don't want to deal with you anymore.  Google has that right.

Does that mean businesses are allowed to "decide they don't want to deal with you anymore" because of your race/sex/religion/sexual orientation?

That's different though.  That's discimination due to an irrational prejudice over an accident of birth.  It's not a refusal to do business because of something you said that the other party finds objectionable and/or fears will harm their image.

Right. So racism is irrational prejudice and all sorts of restrictions are justified in order to prevent a business from denying service for racial reasons. Will to power, on the other hand, is perfectly rational -why wouldn't a corporation want to stop a person from speaking against it? - and is therefore fine.

It may well be rational for a corporation to want to use financial power to shape the press and society to serve its interests, but is it really a good idea that we let them?
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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2014, 03:30:58 am »
Those are serious questions that actually matter, and I don't have an easy answer for them. One idea I've had is to totally ban all advertising: no paying anyone to advocate for you outside court, on television or off.
So what about the entire industries that are built around advertising revenue? Radio, TV, sites like Youtube, professional sports. Just let them die, screwing over thousands of employees and consumers alike? Have consumers pay for it directly? Nationalise the lot of it, thereby turning a pretty big source of tax revenue into an even bigger money sink? No matter how I look at it, I just can't envision any scenario where banning all advertising ends well.

Offline Katsuro

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2014, 03:31:05 am »
First amendment rights are irrlevent.  Unless WND thinks Google is the government.

Freedom of speech only protects you from the athorities penalising you for speaking your mind, it doesn't stop private businesses from deciding they don't want to deal with you anymore.  Google has that right.

Does that mean businesses are allowed to "decide they don't want to deal with you anymore" because of your race/sex/religion/sexual orientation?

That's different though.  That's discimination due to an irrational prejudice over an accident of birth.  It's not a refusal to do business because of something you said that the other party finds objectionable and/or fears will harm their image.

Right. So racism is irrational prejudice and all sorts of restrictions are justified in order to prevent a business from denying service for racial reasons. Will to power, on the other hand, is perfectly rational -why wouldn't a corporation want to stop a person from speaking against it? - and is therefore fine.

What the hell are you talking about?  This is not about a company trying to stiffle criticism against itself, this is about a company threatening to refuse business to another company because of, what Google sees as, racial slurs.  The former is entirely different issue that has nothing to do with the latter.  Please quote where I said that because a company should have the right to stop doing businesss with another company because of racist or homophobic things the latter company said, they should also be allowed to do whatever it takes to prevent anyone from citicising them?  You can have one without the other, the two are not inseparable.

It may well be rational for a corporation to want to use financial power to shape the press and society to serve its interests, but is it really a good idea that we let them?

Again, what the hell are you talking about?  That has nothing to do with this.  Google  saying "you violated the terms of agreement so we're not running ads on your site anymore" is not using their financial power to shape the press and society.  It's them saying "you violated our agreement so we're terminating it".   Just because I think Google has that right (and they actualy do in this case as WND could be argued to be in breech of contract) does not mean I also have to think companies should be allowed to manipulate the world fo their own ends.  That's fucking insane.

I honestly do not understand your logic.  If you're focusing on my single use of the word "irrational" you're completely missing the entire point of my argument.  Try to comprehend the whole thing instead of getting hung up on a single word.   Also, saying one thing is irrational and ok/not ok is not saying that all things irrational are ok/not ok - and saying one thing rational is and ok/not ok is not saying all things rational are ok/not ok.  Is anyone here able to stick to addressing the actual crux of the point somebody is making and not attacking something the person wasn't even trying to say?  It seems to be kind of a thing in these boards.

Or are you just trying to piss me off?  If so then congratulations, it's kinda working.

If this is what debating with you is going to be like then in all honesty I'm just going to quit right now because it's going to be an experience comparable to arguing with a brick wall and then repeatedly banging my head against that brick wall.

Offline Katsuro

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2014, 03:49:05 am »
We should calm down with some porn.

Sadly I must depart and, unusually for me, do stuff.  No time for porn  :-[

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2014, 07:51:27 am »
Those are serious questions that actually matter, and I don't have an easy answer for them. One idea I've had is to totally ban all advertising: no paying anyone to advocate for you outside court, on television or off.
So what about the entire industries that are built around advertising revenue? Radio, TV, sites like Youtube, professional sports. Just let them die, screwing over thousands of employees and consumers alike? Have consumers pay for it directly? Nationalise the lot of it, thereby turning a pretty big source of tax revenue into an even bigger money sink? No matter how I look at it, I just can't envision any scenario where banning all advertising ends well.

Well, obviously you're going to be needing a new revenue stream - though nobody should actually be poorer, because the advertising industry doesn't create wealth; GDP/capita should be higher due to more efficient policy and better working markets. A lot of those industries need a new revenue stream anyway! The press, for instance, has just lost most of their ad revenue. Can we think of a good revenue system? Maybe a system where the government pays an amount of money determined directly by the public? I want X amount of my art vouchers going to X band.

First amendment rights are irrlevent.  Unless WND thinks Google is the government.

Freedom of speech only protects you from the athorities penalising you for speaking your mind, it doesn't stop private businesses from deciding they don't want to deal with you anymore.  Google has that right.

Does that mean businesses are allowed to "decide they don't want to deal with you anymore" because of your race/sex/religion/sexual orientation?

That's different though.  That's discimination due to an irrational prejudice over an accident of birth.  It's not a refusal to do business because of something you said that the other party finds objectionable and/or fears will harm their image.

Right. So racism is irrational prejudice and all sorts of restrictions are justified in order to prevent a business from denying service for racial reasons. Will to power, on the other hand, is perfectly rational -why wouldn't a corporation want to stop a person from speaking against it? - and is therefore fine.

What the hell are you talking about?  This is not about a company trying to stiffle criticism against itself, this is about a company threatening to refuse business to another company because of, what Google sees as, racial slurs.  The former is entirely different issue that has nothing to do with the latter.  Please quote where I said that because a company should have the right to stop doing businesss with another company because of racist or homophobic things the latter company said, they should also be allowed to do whatever it takes to prevent anyone from citicising them?

So you agree that people, to use your phrase, have a right to freedom of speech "without the consequences"? You'd also be admitting that "freedom of speech protects you from private businesses deciding they don't want to deal with you anymore" and that you were wrong when you stated the opposite.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 07:56:40 am by Lt. Fred »
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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2014, 08:36:31 am »
Those are serious questions that actually matter, and I don't have an easy answer for them. One idea I've had is to totally ban all advertising: no paying anyone to advocate for you outside court, on television or off.
So what about the entire industries that are built around advertising revenue? Radio, TV, sites like Youtube, professional sports. Just let them die, screwing over thousands of employees and consumers alike? Have consumers pay for it directly? Nationalise the lot of it, thereby turning a pretty big source of tax revenue into an even bigger money sink? No matter how I look at it, I just can't envision any scenario where banning all advertising ends well.
Well, obviously you're going to be needing a new revenue stream - though nobody should actually be poorer, because the advertising industry doesn't create wealth; GDP/capita should be higher due to more efficient policy and better working markets. A lot of those industries need a new revenue stream anyway! The press, for instance, has just lost most of their ad revenue. Can we think of a good revenue system? Maybe a system where the government pays an amount of money determined directly by the public? I want X amount of my art vouchers going to X band.
I'm not sure I'm convinced. Basically, we set up a whole new government department to track and allocate "art vouchers" for each person and then pay out to whomever receives them, funded by (I'm guessing) taxing businesses what they'd otherwise spend on advertising. Only you'd be putting a financial burden on companies that are no longer seeing the benefit of their product being promoted, so who knows how that would turn out. What about foreign advertisers? How would you impose any such tax on them? It's especially murky if you consider how the internet comes into effect. What about a corporate Facebook, Twitter or Youtube account? They're obviously used to promote their products, but they're not paying others (outside the company, at least) to do so and those accounts can also double as customer support or even a community in some cases. Would those be okay?

What about the fact that thanks to the internet caring very little for boarders, it would give a huge advantage to foreign companies, since they could advertise on foreign hosted sites that locals can view, while domestic businesses cannot do the same. Also, the fact that foreign companies wouldn't be paying this "ad tax" nearly as much, if at all, which would magnify their advantage even further. All this would mean the total market share for domestic businesses would most likely plummet, and with it the amount of "ad tax" that the government is bringing in to spend on art and entertainment that was previously supported by advertising. I'm sure you see why I doubt such a system could support these industries.

Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2014, 12:18:17 pm »
The funny thing about ad revenue is that there's more than one company that does it.  WND can go to another company if Google drops them.  Might not be easy, but the option's certainly there.
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2014, 04:40:08 pm »
The funny thing about ad revenue is that there's more than one company that does it.  WND can go to another company if Google drops them.  Might not be easy, but the option's certainly there.

Basically the only way you can permanently reduce advertising income is by acting against the interests of corporate America in aggregate.

Those are serious questions that actually matter, and I don't have an easy answer for them. One idea I've had is to totally ban all advertising: no paying anyone to advocate for you outside court, on television or off.
So what about the entire industries that are built around advertising revenue? Radio, TV, sites like Youtube, professional sports. Just let them die, screwing over thousands of employees and consumers alike? Have consumers pay for it directly? Nationalise the lot of it, thereby turning a pretty big source of tax revenue into an even bigger money sink? No matter how I look at it, I just can't envision any scenario where banning all advertising ends well.
Well, obviously you're going to be needing a new revenue stream - though nobody should actually be poorer, because the advertising industry doesn't create wealth; GDP/capita should be higher due to more efficient policy and better working markets. A lot of those industries need a new revenue stream anyway! The press, for instance, has just lost most of their ad revenue. Can we think of a good revenue system? Maybe a system where the government pays an amount of money determined directly by the public? I want X amount of my art vouchers going to X band.
I'm not sure I'm convinced. Basically, we set up a whole new government department to track and allocate "art vouchers" for each person

Just like they keep track of your income, except a thousand times simpler. How much does the advertising industry cost? You'd save about 90% of that money, which could be redistributed into useful things.

Quote
Only you'd be putting a financial burden on companies that are no longer seeing the benefit of their product being promoted, so who knows how that would turn out.

Does advertising drive up aggregate demand, or does it just try to control the distribution of that demand? I'm not sure. But, again, if you're looking for a mechanism to push up demand, there are less harmful, expensive mechanisms than advertising. If you want some way to distribute funds to artistic endeavour (et al), there are better ways to distribute that money than advertising. If you take all the money that corporations would have spent on advertising, remove that money in taxation and then spend it doing the same thing, it's just a wash.

The only thing that advertising can and does do is make markets inefficient.

Quote
What about foreign advertisers?

Ban them. Mandatory ad blocker, ect.

Quote
What about a corporate Facebook, Twitter or Youtube account?

PR is the real blind spot so far.
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Offline OmniLiquid

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2014, 01:22:14 am »
The funny thing about ad revenue is that there's more than one company that does it.  WND can go to another company if Google drops them.  Might not be easy, but the option's certainly there.

Basically the only way you can permanently reduce advertising income is by acting against the interests of corporate America in aggregate.

Those are serious questions that actually matter, and I don't have an easy answer for them. One idea I've had is to totally ban all advertising : no paying anyone to advocate for you outside court, on television or off.
So what about the entire industries that are built around advertising revenue? Radio, TV, sites like Youtube, professional sports. Just let them die, screwing over thousands of employees and consumers alike? Have consumers pay for it directly? Nationalise the lot of it, thereby turning a pretty big source of tax revenue into an even bigger money sink? No matter how I look at it, I just can't envision any scenario where banning all advertising ends well.
Well, obviously you're going to be needing a new revenue stream - though nobody should actually be poorer, because the advertising industry doesn't create wealth; GDP/capita should be higher due to more efficient policy and better working markets. A lot of those industries need a new revenue stream anyway! The press, for instance, has just lost most of their ad revenue. Can we think of a good revenue system? Maybe a system where the government pays an amount of money determined directly by the public? I want X amount of my art vouchers going to X band.
I'm not sure I'm convinced. Basically, we set up a whole new government department to track and allocate "art vouchers" for each person

Just like they keep track of your income, except a thousand times simpler. How much does the advertising industry cost? You'd save about 90% of that money, which could be redistributed into useful things.

Quote
Only you'd be putting a financial burden on companies that are no longer seeing the benefit of their product being promoted, so who knows how that would turn out.

Does advertising drive up aggregate demand, or does it just try to control the distribution of that demand? I'm not sure. But, again, if you're looking for a mechanism to push up demand, there are less harmful, expensive mechanisms than advertising. If you want some way to distribute funds to artistic endeavour (et al), there are better ways to distribute that money than advertising. If you take all the money that corporations would have spent on advertising, remove that money in taxation and then spend it doing the same thing, it's just a wash.

The only thing that advertising can and does do is make markets inefficient.

Quote
What about foreign advertisers?

Ban them. Mandatory ad blocker, ect.

Quote
What about a corporate Facebook, Twitter or Youtube account?

PR is the real blind spot so far.

Wait, your idea is to promote free speech by not allowing people to distribute or receive advertising (which is a form of speech)?

Such a law would, in the US at least, be unconstitutional as a government restriction on free speech, of course. Also, enforcement of mandatory software would work about as well as anti-piracy law enforcement does, at best, and likely at more cost (programming, updating, keeping up lists (adblock isn't perfect) and such as well as there not being a signal to track).

EDIT: Also, no magazine ads, no ads on the back of video game manuals, no newspaper classifieds, no election campaigns, etc? Means less foreign products, less trade in general, less informed consumers, and less informed voters. All of which are bad.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 01:29:41 am by OmniLiquid »

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2014, 04:16:12 am »
The funny thing about ad revenue is that there's more than one company that does it.  WND can go to another company if Google drops them.  Might not be easy, but the option's certainly there.

Basically the only way you can permanently reduce advertising income is by acting against the interests of corporate America in aggregate.

Those are serious questions that actually matter, and I don't have an easy answer for them. One idea I've had is to totally ban all advertising : no paying anyone to advocate for you outside court, on television or off.
So what about the entire industries that are built around advertising revenue? Radio, TV, sites like Youtube, professional sports. Just let them die, screwing over thousands of employees and consumers alike? Have consumers pay for it directly? Nationalise the lot of it, thereby turning a pretty big source of tax revenue into an even bigger money sink? No matter how I look at it, I just can't envision any scenario where banning all advertising ends well.
Well, obviously you're going to be needing a new revenue stream - though nobody should actually be poorer, because the advertising industry doesn't create wealth; GDP/capita should be higher due to more efficient policy and better working markets. A lot of those industries need a new revenue stream anyway! The press, for instance, has just lost most of their ad revenue. Can we think of a good revenue system? Maybe a system where the government pays an amount of money determined directly by the public? I want X amount of my art vouchers going to X band.
I'm not sure I'm convinced. Basically, we set up a whole new government department to track and allocate "art vouchers" for each person

Just like they keep track of your income, except a thousand times simpler. How much does the advertising industry cost? You'd save about 90% of that money, which could be redistributed into useful things.

Quote
Only you'd be putting a financial burden on companies that are no longer seeing the benefit of their product being promoted, so who knows how that would turn out.

Does advertising drive up aggregate demand, or does it just try to control the distribution of that demand? I'm not sure. But, again, if you're looking for a mechanism to push up demand, there are less harmful, expensive mechanisms than advertising. If you want some way to distribute funds to artistic endeavour (et al), there are better ways to distribute that money than advertising. If you take all the money that corporations would have spent on advertising, remove that money in taxation and then spend it doing the same thing, it's just a wash.

The only thing that advertising can and does do is make markets inefficient.

Quote
What about foreign advertisers?

Ban them. Mandatory ad blocker, ect.

Quote
What about a corporate Facebook, Twitter or Youtube account?

PR is the real blind spot so far.

Wait, your idea is to promote free speech by not allowing people to distribute or receive advertising (which is a form of speech)?

Such a law would, in the US at least, be unconstitutional as a government restriction on free speech, of course.

Is bribery constitutionally protected freedom of speech? Why not?

Okay, for that reason, advertising - which is legal bribery - ought not to be legal.

Quote
Also, enforcement of mandatory software would work about as well as anti-piracy law enforcement does,

Do people want advertising?

Quote
no newspaper classifieds,

I think this would be a legitimate grey area. A very expensive classified ad would be banned along with all other bribery, but low-cost unsophisticated classified advertising would be okay.

Quote
no election campaigns,

Like I said, PR is a grey area and I'm not sure how it would work.

Quote
Means less foreign products, less trade in general,

This has been addressed. Please read my posts.

Quote
less informed consumers, and less informed voters.

Far more informed, scarcely comparable actually.
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http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2014, 08:53:53 am »
Wait wait wait...hold the effin phone here.  Advertizing is now bribery?  Of whom, and how?  How is paying someone to essentially play "Pimp My Product" bribery?  I can understand if you don't like ads and/or commercials, but making it against the law?  Are you actually serious, or is all this just a thought experiment?  Please, please tell me its the latter, because the former is so...I just...no, my brain won't let me do it.

How are people going to be "more informed" about products if you remove one of the simplest ways to convey information about effing products?  Yes, they're butt-fucking retarded in their approach, many times.  Hell, they're blatantly sexist, against both sexes, a lot of the time.  That doesn't mean we should end them.  The revenue they bring in is important, and not just to the companies that get the extra money, but society as a whole thru taxes.  I'd be pleased as punch if we could make advertizing less blatantly idiotic, don't get me wrong, but banning it is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Also, mandatory software?  Allow me a rebuttal...



Good luck with that, because that's going to be damn near impossible to implement.  Ya see, the internet is a haven of knowledge, and people don't like having shit forced on to them.  Net Nanny programs don't hold up to anyone with a few hours and Google.  Unless you plan on arresting anyone who bypasses your shitty Nannyware, in which case, why not just cut out the middle man and move to fucking China?
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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2014, 11:04:13 am »
Fred, I've read and reread this whole thread a couple times. I have to ask this, and for the life of me I have to ask what the hell you're talking about. Should there be consequences to free speech? Absolutely. But think consequences is the wrong word. Outcome or reaction is a much better word to use. Every action has a reaction. Every single one. Why is that bad? Because those "consequences", those reactions I count on. Answer that if you want.
The question I really want an answer to is this. Are you taking about how things should be? Or are you trying to work in the way the world is?
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2014, 12:23:25 am »
Wait wait wait...hold the effin phone here.  Advertizing is now bribery?  Of whom, and how?  How is paying someone to essentially play "Pimp My Product" bribery?

What is bribery and why don't we like it?

Okay, so the legal definition of bribery is: "He offers, confers or agrees to confer any thing of value upon a public servant with the intent that the public servant's vote, opinion, judgment, exercise of discretion or other action in his official capacity will thereby be corruptly influenced;..."

(This is a definition applying only to public servants; obviously a bribe offered to a person who is not a public servant remains a bribe).

What are the elements? 1) Money offered, 2) in order for a person to exercise their power (et al) in a manner they would not otherwise, 3) improperly. What do we mean by improperly? Dishonestly. Why is it illegal? Bribery increases transaction costs, reduces the effectiveness and responsiveness of the bribed organisation, undermines public accountability, ect.

Okay, what is advertising? 1) Money offered, 2) in order for a person or corporation to exercise their "opinion, judgement, exercise of discretion", 3) in a dishonest and improper fashion. A person in an ad is essentially endorsing a product does not do so honestly, because it is a good product, but in proportion to the amount of money that corporation has paid them. The commercial station does not run advertisements because it thinks the product is good, but because it has been paid to do so. In a similar way, a corrupt judge does not let XYZ off murder because he thinks him innocent, but because he has been paid.

Now, you could argue that there is less harm caused by this sort of bribery than through normal corruption. You could argue it, but you'd be wrong. The sole purpose of advertising is to distort market forces, and to clog up the natural price and information signals of capitalism. If we treated the bribery by commercial companies of television companies they way we treat their bribery of, say, judges virtually everything would work better.

Literally the only thing commercials do is negative. They should not exist.

Quote
How are people going to be "more informed" about products if you remove one of the simplest ways to convey information about effing products?

Far more informed. The purpose of advertising is to reduce the level of information available to people, or to encourage them to ignore it. If you want people to be informed about products, the best way to do so is to found some sort of independent agency that can rate products by quality. This would be then put on the soap or whatever next to the price tag.

You might also have a TV show to educate people about available products. The difference between this, of course, is that these would be honest, which advertising is by definition not.

Quote
The revenue they bring in is important, and not just to the companies that get the extra money, but society as a whole thru taxes.

Advertising reduces useful GDP, it does not increase it.

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I'd be pleased as punch if we could make advertizing less blatantly idiotic, don't get me wrong, but banning it is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

There is no baby. There is just bathwater.

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Ya see, the internet is a haven of knowledge, and people don't like having shit forced on to them.  Net Nanny programs don't hold up to anyone with a few hours and Google.  Unless you plan on arresting anyone who bypasses your shitty Nannyware, in which case, why not just cut out the middle man and move to fucking China?

Why would anyone want to watch advertising?

Should there be consequences to free speech? Absolutely. But think consequences is the wrong word. Outcome or reaction is a much better word to use. Every action has a reaction. Every single one. Why is that bad?

Should one of those 'consequences' be prison? Okay, why not?
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
-FDR