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Community => Society and History => Topic started by: chitoryu12 on March 17, 2013, 09:09:01 pm

Title: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: chitoryu12 on March 17, 2013, 09:09:01 pm
This is an offshoot from this (http://forums.fstdt.net/index.php?topic=3791.0) thread, regarding the existence of sex offender registries, the ease of getting on them, and whether it's truly right to continue punishment for these crimes after the sentencing has run its course.

If you've got anything to say, we can make it here. GO!
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: MadCatTLX on March 17, 2013, 10:23:34 pm
I just wanna say pissing in an alley while drunk should not be reason to get put on a sex offender registry.

Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Joey on March 17, 2013, 11:24:26 pm
Well, I don't like the way society in general makes it difficult for ex-cons, who have already served their time, to re-integrate back into society. Obviously if you deny them opportunities to become employed, go to school, or find stable living, they're just going to turn back to crime. Rather than rehabiliting them, you're creating life-long criminals.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: rookie on March 17, 2013, 11:31:10 pm
A fair point, Joey. But is sexual predation a one and done thing?
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: JohnE on March 17, 2013, 11:44:49 pm
A fair point, Joey. But is sexual predation a one and done thing?
If someone's a danger to the community, why are we letting them out of prison?
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Rabbit of Caerbannog on March 17, 2013, 11:58:45 pm
Well, I don't like the way society in general makes it difficult for ex-cons, who have already served their time, to re-integrate back into society. Obviously if you deny them opportunities to become employed, go to school, or find stable living, they're just going to turn back to crime. Rather than rehabiliting them, you're creating life-long criminals.
I won't say that I wouldn't want them to have jobs at all, but would anyone be comfortable with a convicted child molester taking a job where s/he would be around children?
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Stormwarden on March 18, 2013, 12:01:49 am
I agree with rookie. Sexual predation is seldom a one and done deal. However, we need to look at the definition of a sexual predator.

I think there is no disputing that rape, sexual molestation, and sexual assault on anyone qualifies.

Pissing in an alleyway, having a 17-yr-old banging his 16-yr-old SO, and other such trivial shit? Not so much. Society, in many cases, focuses too damned much on the punishment, and not the rehab. So, the rehab element is something to look into, so long as it doesn't wind up like a Clockwork Orange scenario.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Rabbit of Caerbannog on March 18, 2013, 12:07:36 am
So, the rehab element is something to look into, so long as it doesn't wind up like a Clockwork Orange scenario.
You mean something fucking amazing starring Malcolm McDowell?
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: ironbite on March 18, 2013, 01:07:12 am
So, the rehab element is something to look into, so long as it doesn't wind up like a Clockwork Orange scenario.
You mean something fucking amazing starring Malcolm McDowell?

You are aware of the message of a Clockwork Orange right?

I agree with rookie. Sexual predation is seldom a one and done deal. However, we need to look at the definition of a sexual predator.

I think there is no disputing that rape, sexual molestation, and sexual assault on anyone qualifies.

Pissing in an alleyway, having a 17-yr-old banging his 16-yr-old SO, and other such trivial shit? Not so much. Society, in many cases, focuses too damned much on the punishment, and not the rehab. So, the rehab element is something to look into, so long as it doesn't wind up like a Clockwork Orange scenario.

This.  It's so easy to get on the sex offender list it's almost laughable  If we could just take a step back and realize that public urination and underage sex, to use the two examples, are not crimes but....well the former's a stupid decision and the latter's what happens when hormones get together, we'd be better.  But we're not.

Ironbite-and that's a damn shame.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Captain Jack Harkness on March 18, 2013, 01:11:26 am
You know, sexual offenders are probably chronic BECAUSE they have to hide it.  I mean, with other things, it's generally a lot more okay to admit you have a problem.  It's really not okay to admit you fucked a kid, so people hide it inside.

If people can't admit they have a problem, how the hell can they resolve it?
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: JohnE on March 18, 2013, 01:32:17 am
You know, sexual offenders are probably chronic BECAUSE they have to hide it.  I mean, with other things, it's generally a lot more okay to admit you have a problem.  It's really not okay to admit you fucked a kid, so people hide it inside.

If people can't admit they have a problem, how the hell can they resolve it?
I think that depends on the nature of the offense. I have wondered for some time though if the social stigma against being a pedophile or zoophile, for example (even if you've never fucked a kid or an animal), actually contributes to the problem. i.e. Maybe if the stigma wasn't so devastating, more people would be willing to admit it and get help before something happens.

In general, I think our justice system needs to focus more on rehabilitation than punishment. Just locking criminals up for X arbitrary amount of time and then letting them go, when you know they're at a high risk of reoffending is... just dumb. And it leads stuff like the sex offender registry, which is a bandaid on a broken system that just screws everyone over even more.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Captain Jack Harkness on March 18, 2013, 01:38:17 am
You know, sexual offenders are probably chronic BECAUSE they have to hide it.  I mean, with other things, it's generally a lot more okay to admit you have a problem.  It's really not okay to admit you fucked a kid, so people hide it inside.

If people can't admit they have a problem, how the hell can they resolve it?
I think that depends on the nature of the offense. I have wondered for some time though if the social stigma against being a pedophile or zoophile, for example (even if you've never fucked a kid or an animal), actually contributes to the problem. i.e. Maybe if the stigma wasn't so devastating, more people would be willing to admit it and get help before something happens.

In general, I think our justice system needs to focus more on rehabilitation than punishment. Just locking criminals up for X arbitrary amount of time and then letting them go, when you know they're at a high risk of reoffending is... just dumb. And it leads stuff like the sex offender registry, which is a bandaid on a broken system that just screws everyone over even more.

Taboo is a powerful motivator.  The more taboo something is, the more appealing it is.  This is why censoring books doesn't work.

Hell, the idea of things being taboo is a marketing gimmick, for fuck's sake!
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: syaoranvee on March 18, 2013, 02:44:02 am
You know, sexual offenders are probably chronic BECAUSE they have to hide it.  I mean, with other things, it's generally a lot more okay to admit you have a problem.  It's really not okay to admit you fucked a kid, so people hide it inside.

If people can't admit they have a problem, how the hell can they resolve it?

I found a board where people openly admit to their problems of being pedophiles, it's specifically a board mean't for various psychological problems and they have basically taken over the paraphilla section of it. If anything it's an interesting read.  Link (http://www.psychforums.com/paraphilias/)

Probably don't want to look at this at work.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Askold on March 18, 2013, 03:05:42 am
This is slightly related to something that I have been wondering for a long time. Should the punishment for crimes be:

a) A deterrent/punishment. The criminals are punished harshly so that  those who would commit crimes would not dare to do it in fear of the punishment. On the other hand, once the sentence has been served doesn't this mean that they've paid their dues to the society and should be allowed to return? Or is the criminal record another part of the punishment? Fuck up once, and you will suffer for the rest of your life and be a second class citizen.

b) Protecting the innocent. The important thing is that criminal can/will not continue committing the crimes. Either by being locked up in jail or by "branding" them so that others will recognise them. (just like the sex offender registry) Or simply having some restrictions on their liberties. (people who did business related crimes can't start up a new company etc.)

c) Rehabilitation. Prisoner is kept in jail only untill they can return to the society and they receive education/counsceling to help in that endevour.

Well actually this is usually a mix of the three.

The sex offender registries is a mix of a and b, they are branded and suffer limitations to their freedom and lifechoices. The registry won't help them rehabilitate. And let's be honest:  If the offender is someone who has a compulsion to commit whatever act it was, they should get help, or be kept in a guarded location. Dumping them on the streets is bad for both the offender and the potential new victims. If the offense was a one off thing and not likely to be repeated, why is this person on a public registry? They did their time and should be back to their lives, or what is left of it.

Actually I think the registries and even criminal records themselves are causing more problems. Simply making everyone who has been convicted into a pariah makes them more likely to return to being a criminal. Which is the opposite of what the registries are supposed to do.

And there should definitely be a difference between "was seen taking a piss outside" and "raped 15 kids."

I have more to say on this subject later.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Damen on March 18, 2013, 03:20:37 am
For whatever reason, I somehow feel that this is bordering on a derail into the prison justice system as a whole in the United States. But if not then my mistake, but before I wander off, I just felt I should point out Norway's prison system.

Inside the World's Most Humane Prison (http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1989083,00.html)
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Captain Jack Harkness on March 18, 2013, 03:30:03 am
You know, sexual offenders are probably chronic BECAUSE they have to hide it.  I mean, with other things, it's generally a lot more okay to admit you have a problem.  It's really not okay to admit you fucked a kid, so people hide it inside.

If people can't admit they have a problem, how the hell can they resolve it?

I found a board where people openly admit to their problems of being pedophiles, it's specifically a board mean't for various psychological problems and they have basically taken over the paraphilla section of it. If anything it's an interesting read.  Link (http://www.psychforums.com/paraphilias/)

Probably don't want to look at this at work.

You mean to tell me that there's PEDOPHILES being OPEN on the Internet?  I am frankly SHOCKED sir.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: R. U. Sirius on March 18, 2013, 09:25:29 am
Reposting my original post from the "Verdict in Steubenville" thread:

It's highly doubtful that either of them will manage any of the dreams that they may have had, or accomplish anything outside of quietly living alone with minimal interaction with a community that fearfully hides their children from them.

While I agree they deserve to be punished, I can't help thinking that this and the shaming and lifelong ostracism the label "sex offender" carries go beyond the pale. Considering that in many states you can now be labeled a sex offender for such things as urinating in public or a 17-year-old having sex with their 16-year-old SO, I think that label has been watered down to the point of uselessness, while at the same still being considered synonymous with "violent child molester".

Consider the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIOlrC4ChgE

This is a case where a good-intentioned, if misguided law has been turned into a weapon to inflict extra punishment on people who have already legally paid their debt. Studies have shown that residency restrictions and public notification actually INCREASE the chance of a sex-offender reoffending, because they have so much less to lose than if they actually had a chance to build a somewhat normal life again. On top of that, they do nothing to reduce actual sex crimes committed, particularly since the vast majority are committed by people the victim knows and trusts, in direct contradiction to "stranger danger".

What these boys did is horrific. They deserve to be punished for it. Once they're out of prison, law enforcement should be able to keep an eye on them. But lifelong public shaming can't be called anything other than "cruel and unusual." Why do we not have public registries of drug dealers, who inflict far more damage and are much more likely to reoffend and to hurt strangers with their crimes? For that matter, if we're going to insist a category of criminals be forever separated from society, why not make like 19th-century England with transportation?

Honestly, how is putting someone on a registry that makes it all-but-impossible to find friends, get a job and build a stake in a community supposed to make it less likely for them to reoffend?

Sources:

Recidivism of Sex Offenders Released from Prison in 1994, Bureau of Justice Statistics, 2003
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=1136

U.S. Sentencing Commission’s 2009 Sourcebook of Federal Sentencing Statistics, Table C)

http://www.ussc.gov/ANNRPT/2009/SBTOC09.htm

Registering Harm: How sex offense registries fail youth and communities, The Justice Policy Institute
www.justicepolicy.org/images/upload/08-11_RPT_WalshActRegisteringHarm_JJ-PS.pdf

Michael Seto and Angela W Eke, “The Criminal Histories and Later Offending of Child Pornography Offenders”,
17 SexualAbuse: J Res. & Treatment 2005

http://reason.com/blog/2012/01/23/out-of-747408-registered-sex-offenders-h

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/21/opinion/sunday/sex-offenders-the-last-pariahs.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

And a reply to a comment made by Rabbit of Caernebog:
Quote
Personally I feel that I can call the sex offenders registry anything other than cruel and unusual. And I also don't think that drug dealing is an analogous crime to rape/molestation. At least in the case of purchasing drugs, people have a choice in whether or not they do so. Is that the same as when someone forces themself upon you sexually?

No, but neither do you have a choice about being caught in the crossfire of a drug war, or targetted specifically because you stood up to drug dealers. That was the damage I was referring to.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Rabbit of Caerbannog on March 18, 2013, 09:39:58 am
So, the rehab element is something to look into, so long as it doesn't wind up like a Clockwork Orange scenario.
You mean something fucking amazing starring Malcolm McDowell?

You are aware of the message of a Clockwork Orange right?
Nope, it's just one of my favorite movies and I own it on DVD. There was a message?
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: JohnE on March 18, 2013, 11:36:30 am
I found a board where people openly admit to their problems of being pedophiles, it's specifically a board mean't for various psychological problems and they have basically taken over the paraphilla section of it. If anything it's an interesting read.  Link (http://www.psychforums.com/paraphilias/)

Probably don't want to look at this at work.
Do they treat it like a support group (i.e. "we've got problems, let's help each other deal with it"), or is it more of a justification echo chamber? Because if it's the former, it might be very helpful for them.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: mellenORL on March 19, 2013, 02:03:53 pm
The sex offenders registry needs to be completely overhauled into the sexual predators registry. Drop everyone off that list who is not a child molester/pornographer, or a rapist, or a bestiality freak. Carefully review statutory rape - it's pretty much bullshit, and cannot be confused with child rape by any judge worth a seat on the bench.

There are 2 immediate neighbors in my townhouse community. Both are on the sex offenders registry. One guy is 36, convicted of statutory rape and he's married to the woman he "raped" 19 years ago (sigh). The other guy is 79, convicted of molesting an eight year old girl, was let out of prison early "due to age and health reasons".

My young neighbors all have babies and toddlers, and my elderly neighbors have grand kids visiting all the time. But, this vain, creepy, 79 year old POS is wealthy, has high-end lawyers and is impossible to oust, because he's legally disabled with inoperable heart problems.

Just waiting for him to die, we all are...(maybe a few M80's, lit under his bedroom window one night? Just sayin'...).
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Meshakhad on March 19, 2013, 03:48:23 pm
If an individual cannot be trusted to live near children, then they should be in jail. I'd prefer to increase sentencing requirements than to put people on the sex offender registry for life.

Also, what if someone genuinely reforms? It happens. People realize that what they did was sick and wrong, and they try to make amends and move past it.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Osama bin Bambi on March 19, 2013, 10:44:37 pm
If an individual cannot be trusted to live near children, then they should be in jail. I'd prefer to increase sentencing requirements than to put people on the sex offender registry for life.

Exactly. The legal system should be based on making sure that people do not re-offend, preferably by rehabilitation, but if the person shows no signs of getting better and are dangerous to the community, then there need to be measures taken to make sure they do not interact with the rest of society. The problem is that a lot of the more psychopathic sexual predators know how to lie very convincingly and can trick the therapists, judges, etc. into thinking that they have "reformed."
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Captain Jack Harkness on March 19, 2013, 10:47:55 pm
If an individual cannot be trusted to live near children, then they should be in jail. I'd prefer to increase sentencing requirements than to put people on the sex offender registry for life.

Exactly. The legal system should be based on making sure that people do not re-offend, preferably by rehabilitation, but if the person shows no signs of getting better and are dangerous to the community, then there need to be measures taken to make sure they do not interact with the rest of society. The problem is that a lot of the more psychopathic sexual predators know how to lie very convincingly and can trick the therapists, judges, etc. into thinking that they have "reformed."

Well of course they do.  When you go your whole life covering up something like that, you're bound to have developed a system for lying to cover up how you really feel.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Her3tiK on March 19, 2013, 11:03:55 pm
Once there's DNA evidence linking someone to rape, put them down like rabid animals. Far as I'm concerned, they've forfeit their right to live as soon as they commit such a crime. And no, I don't particularly care how archaic or cruel that is. If you don't like it, don't rape.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: chitoryu12 on March 19, 2013, 11:34:07 pm
If an individual cannot be trusted to live near children, then they should be in jail. I'd prefer to increase sentencing requirements than to put people on the sex offender registry for life.

Exactly. The legal system should be based on making sure that people do not re-offend, preferably by rehabilitation, but if the person shows no signs of getting better and are dangerous to the community, then there need to be measures taken to make sure they do not interact with the rest of society. The problem is that a lot of the more psychopathic sexual predators know how to lie very convincingly and can trick the therapists, judges, etc. into thinking that they have "reformed."

The other problem is determining the line between "rehabilitated" and "not rehabilitated." What exactly is the test to determine if someone is genuinely not planning on committing said crime again? You can't just use "I solemnly swear I'm up to all good."
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Captain Jack Harkness on March 19, 2013, 11:39:37 pm
Once there's DNA evidence linking someone to rape, put them down like rabid animals. Far as I'm concerned, they've forfeit their right to live as soon as they commit such a crime. And no, I don't particularly care how archaic or cruel that is. If you don't like it, don't rape.

I guess I'm just too much of a bleeding heart for this approach.  Dehumanizing people, no matter how horrible their crimes, will not help the problem.  If nothing else, I think it'll just encourage rapists to "hide the evidence."

Of course, this line of reasoning is also the reason I oppose hell, although that's on a whole other level because its "forever."  That's not even a topic for this thread.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Jack Mann on March 20, 2013, 12:15:35 am
Once there's DNA evidence linking someone to rape, put them down like rabid animals. Far as I'm concerned, they've forfeit their right to live as soon as they commit such a crime. And no, I don't particularly care how archaic or cruel that is. If you don't like it, don't rape.

Until we get much better at processing DNA evidence, I will not support the death penalty based on it.  Yes, it's a lot more reliable than many other forms of evidence, but it's not 100%, especially when you factor in human error.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Art Vandelay on March 20, 2013, 12:16:46 am
If nothing else, I think it'll just encourage rapists to "hide the evidence."
Somehow suggesting that those who're smart enough to think to do that don't already.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Rabbit of Caerbannog on March 20, 2013, 12:30:03 am
Once there's DNA evidence linking someone to rape, put them down like rabid animals. Far as I'm concerned, they've forfeit their right to live as soon as they commit such a crime. And no, I don't particularly care how archaic or cruel that is. If you don't like it, don't rape.
I'm not going to rape anyone and I still don't like it. I oppose the death penalty on principle. If you instead suggested they be locked away for the rest of their lives, that I could get behind.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on March 20, 2013, 12:52:07 am
Why not just make it possible to get OFF the registry?  Excepting cases where people ought not to even be put ON the registry in the first fucking place, give people on the registry a yearly evaluation.  If they prove that they're reformed, then take them off it.

Seriously.  This is NOT a hard concept.  Deleting records have been around since people first started recording data and making databases on -any- media, not just digitally.  Shit, nowadays, its 50 times easier to do that, and it wouldn't take much work at all.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Captain Jack Harkness on March 20, 2013, 12:53:45 am
If nothing else, I think it'll just encourage rapists to "hide the evidence."
Somehow suggesting that those who're smart enough to think to do that don't already.

Well, making things harsher sure the hell isn't going to do much to deter people with a problem severe enough to take things far enough where "death is warranted."

Also, that would be too logical, Ravenous.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Distind on March 21, 2013, 12:26:02 am
Why not just make it possible to get OFF the registry?  Excepting cases where people ought not to even be put ON the registry in the first fucking place, give people on the registry a yearly evaluation.  If they prove that they're reformed, then take them off it.

Seriously.  This is NOT a hard concept.  Deleting records have been around since people first started recording data and making databases on -any- media, not just digitally.  Shit, nowadays, its 50 times easier to do that, and it wouldn't take much work at all.

Because it wouldn't accomplish a thing.

Give it 30 seconds after that passes, someone sets up a site cataloging historic sex offender registrations. Search there rather than the official place.

Frankly if you get nailed for rape, molestation or actual sex crimes I sincerely doubt reform is going to be a thing. Which is more or less where this thing came from. However the joys of mindless prudeness have pushed it to involve so much as forgetting to zip one day and getting charged with indecent exposure.

There's plenty of reason to reevaluate what gets you on the list, but I'm not sure what would get someone off of it.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: mellenORL on March 21, 2013, 12:26:27 am
Child molesters, especially, no longer hold a membership card with the human race IMO. That being said, I would feel better if my 79 year old child rapist neighbor had a permanently affixed security neck collar that would shock him unconscious if he got within 10 feet of a child. Maybe using video biometric ID software. Then I would like him to try and push the envelope - the shock would stop his nasty fucked-up heart.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Auggziliary on March 20, 2013, 05:46:05 pm
I would give death penalty for rapists but I think that would cause both the rapist and the victim to hide the evidence. Since most rape victims know their rapist, who might be a friend, relative, or partner, they might stay silent because they are still blaming themselves for their rape.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Captain Jack Harkness on March 20, 2013, 06:34:04 pm
I would give death penalty for rapists but I think that would cause both the rapist and the victim to hide the evidence. Since most rape victims know their rapist, who might be a friend, relative, or partner, they might stay silent because they are still blaming themselves for their rape.

Well, there's also the ethical concerns of putting someone to, y'know, DEATH.  I mean, molestation is messed up, but I really don't like all of the dehumanization going on in this thread.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: JohnE on March 20, 2013, 07:19:09 pm
Well, there's also the ethical concerns of putting someone to, y'know, DEATH.  I mean, molestation is messed up, but I really don't like all of the dehumanization going on in this thread.
I agree with this whole-heartedly. I realize it's an emotional topic and a very traumatizing crime, but I'm surprized how many here are jumping on the death waggon.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Auggziliary on March 20, 2013, 09:53:34 pm
Sorry that sounded pretty cold.
I don't really have an opinion the death penalty yet. I just usually keep it an option in my arguments since it is obviously an option. I didn't mean to argue for it, since I'm undecided.



Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: mellenORL on March 21, 2013, 12:57:45 am
http://www.kmov.com/news/crime/Police-St-Charles-child-sex-abuse-case-one-of-the-worst-theyve-ever-seen-156119115.html (http://www.kmov.com/news/crime/Police-St-Charles-child-sex-abuse-case-one-of-the-worst-theyve-ever-seen-156119115.html)

Read about that case. It's one of those litmus test things, it's so bad. Some acts are so heinous, it is hard to argue the high road, that society should be above capital punishment, that death is not a justified sentence. I don't think very many death sentences are really necessary, but some just are.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: syaoranvee on March 21, 2013, 01:39:59 am
http://www.kmov.com/news/crime/Police-St-Charles-child-sex-abuse-case-one-of-the-worst-theyve-ever-seen-156119115.html (http://www.kmov.com/news/crime/Police-St-Charles-child-sex-abuse-case-one-of-the-worst-theyve-ever-seen-156119115.html)

Read about that case. It's one of those litmus test things, it's so bad. Some acts are so heinous, it is hard to argue the high road, that society should be above capital punishment, that death is not a justified sentence. I don't think very many death sentences are really necessary, but some just are.

No one was killed in that case.  Therefore a death sentence is unjustified in that case.  "Eye for an eye" is the way to go.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Art Vandelay on March 21, 2013, 02:44:13 am
http://www.kmov.com/news/crime/Police-St-Charles-child-sex-abuse-case-one-of-the-worst-theyve-ever-seen-156119115.html (http://www.kmov.com/news/crime/Police-St-Charles-child-sex-abuse-case-one-of-the-worst-theyve-ever-seen-156119115.html)

Read about that case. It's one of those litmus test things, it's so bad. Some acts are so heinous, it is hard to argue the high road, that society should be above capital punishment, that death is not a justified sentence. I don't think very many death sentences are really necessary, but some just are.

No one was killed in that case.  Therefore a death sentence is unjustified in that case.  "Eye for an eye" is the way to go.

That's a tad arbitrary. If you ask me, if the death penalty is to be used, it should be used only when rehabilitation is impossible, either because the criminal is beyond reform or it's simply too great a risk to release them.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Askold on March 21, 2013, 03:04:46 am
http://www.kmov.com/news/crime/Police-St-Charles-child-sex-abuse-case-one-of-the-worst-theyve-ever-seen-156119115.html (http://www.kmov.com/news/crime/Police-St-Charles-child-sex-abuse-case-one-of-the-worst-theyve-ever-seen-156119115.html)

Read about that case. It's one of those litmus test things, it's so bad. Some acts are so heinous, it is hard to argue the high road, that society should be above capital punishment, that death is not a justified sentence. I don't think very many death sentences are really necessary, but some just are.

No one was killed in that case.  Therefore a death sentence is unjustified in that case.  "Eye for an eye" is the way to go.

That's a tad arbitrary. If you ask me, if the death penalty is to be used, it should be used only when rehabilitation is impossible, either because the criminal is beyond reform or it's simply too great a risk to release them.

On theoretical level I'm gonna agree with Art. I would also like to add that until we have a way of being 100% certain that the convicted person is guilty I will oppose death penalty. Sometimes courts make mistakes, sometimes the court and the police are corrupt. I'd rather not make a mistake we can't undo.

In fact, we have already discussed people who end up in these registries due to minor and non-harmful things like pissing in a place you only thought was private, but I am also certain there are people who are falsely convicted. How hard is it for them to get off the list?
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: chitoryu12 on March 21, 2013, 03:34:38 am
It takes no effort at all on Google to find dozens and dozens of cases where people were falsely convicted of crimes as high up the ladder as rape and murder. Sometimes they were even convicted based on DNA evidence, which was later found to be incorrect. Any laws that give an automatic death penalty to people for particular crimes, even with DNA evidence, will inevitably catch innocent people. I don't think anybody can justify killing innocent people for the crimes of others just out of emotional rage at particular crimes.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Jack Mann on March 21, 2013, 12:13:46 pm
I'm perfectly all right with child molesters being put to death.  That said, I don't trust our judicial system to always find the right person.  I would rather lock up the molester than chance letting an innocent man be executed.  You can always release a prisoner if the courts make a mistake.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: mellenORL on March 21, 2013, 12:29:33 pm
I donate money to the Innocence Project, because I strongly agree - over and over again, wrongly accused people have their lives ruined and are in fact murdered by the state. No doubt, many thousands of innocent people have been wrongly executed around the world from botched or corrupt evidence gathering by police and prosecutors over the years. I am not meaning that to include victims of dictators, rouge states etc.- just "regular" first world criminal prosecutions.

In the child rape case I linked to, it looks pretty much open and shut. The man who forced his penis into his 7 month old daughter's vagina while the mother held her down confessed immediately, plus rape kit evidence confirmed, immediately. It wasn't like the all too common scenario of police using psychological torture (8 to 16 hour aggressive interrogations) to force a false confession. If we don't execute someone like that, due to taking the high road, I understand, but I don't like it. A new, more "humane" Devil's Island? Sentence them to life in induced coma (Glasgow Scale 3 or 4)?

Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: JohnE on March 21, 2013, 02:14:51 pm
That's a tad arbitrary. If you ask me, if the death penalty is to be used, it should be used only when rehabilitation is impossible, either because the criminal is beyond reform or it's simply too great a risk to release them.
Then why not just keep them locked up? What practical purpose does killing them serve that keeping them locked up for life does not?
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Distind on March 21, 2013, 03:05:36 pm
That's a tad arbitrary. If you ask me, if the death penalty is to be used, it should be used only when rehabilitation is impossible, either because the criminal is beyond reform or it's simply too great a risk to release them.
Then why not just keep them locked up? What practical purpose does killing them serve that keeping them locked up for life does not?
Denying them the chance of ever committing the crime again. Removing the chance of escape.

Putting a definitive end on their actions.

Notably I'm not saying it should be a standard punishment, but when you come to people like this guy (http://forums.fstdt.net/index.php?topic=3825.0). Flush him.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: JohnE on March 21, 2013, 03:33:45 pm
Denying them the chance of ever committing the crime again.
Which life without parole also does.

Quote
Removing the chance of escape.
Which is miniscule to begin with.

Quote
Putting a definitive end on their actions.
Which life without parole also does.

Quote
Notably I'm not saying it should be a standard punishment, but when you come to people like this guy (http://forums.fstdt.net/index.php?topic=3825.0). Flush him.
IMO, that makes even less practical sense. Let's say you have two people who've committed terrible crimes and can't be rehabilitated. Both need to be removed from society for good. What's the point of giving one of them life and prison and the other the death penalty, because his crime was worse?
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Distind on March 21, 2013, 04:35:20 pm
Which life without parole also does.
But he still exists. Why should someone get the right to wake up every morning after they've happily taken it from someone else? Why should his continued existence be allowed to bother the victims and/or their families?

Quote
Quote
Notably I'm not saying it should be a standard punishment, but when you come to people like this guy (http://forums.fstdt.net/index.php?topic=3825.0). Flush him.
IMO, that makes even less practical sense. Let's say you have two people who've committed terrible crimes and can't be rehabilitated. Both need to be removed from society for good. What's the point of giving one of them life and prison and the other the death penalty, because his crime was worse?
A lack of repentance or remorse. If someone behaves like a rabid dog I see no reason not to treat them that way.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Auggziliary on March 21, 2013, 04:59:58 pm
http://www.kmov.com/news/crime/Police-St-Charles-child-sex-abuse-case-one-of-the-worst-theyve-ever-seen-156119115.html (http://www.kmov.com/news/crime/Police-St-Charles-child-sex-abuse-case-one-of-the-worst-theyve-ever-seen-156119115.html)

Read about that case. It's one of those litmus test things, it's so bad. Some acts are so heinous, it is hard to argue the high road, that society should be above capital punishment, that death is not a justified sentence. I don't think very many death sentences are really necessary, but some just are.

No one was killed in that case.  Therefore a death sentence is unjustified in that case.  "Eye for an eye" is the way to go.

Er, why?
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Witchyjoshy on March 21, 2013, 05:00:28 pm
Why should someone get the right to wake up every morning after they've happily taken it from someone else? Why should his continued existence be allowed to bother the victims and/or their families?

Because emotion should not dictate "justice".
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: JohnE on March 21, 2013, 05:36:11 pm
But he still exists. Why should someone get the right to wake up every morning after they've happily taken it from someone else? Why should his continued existence be allowed to bother the victims and/or their families?
What Magnus said. It serves no practical purpose, only catharsis through violent revenge.

Quote
A lack of repentance or remorse. If someone behaves like a rabid dog I see no reason not to treat them that way.
But there's also no practical reason TO treat them that way.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: chitoryu12 on March 21, 2013, 06:00:03 pm
Practical reason? The cost of the state maintaining the person's life for however long they live. The state will need to pay for their food and medical services at a minimum, unless you plan on keeping them in utterly inhumane conditions that no first world country would ever approve of. Assuming Ask Men is correct, a 2008-2009 report by the Legislative Analyst's Office estimates that California spends $12,442 per year on each inmate. Some prisoners even get better health care than the guards, since it's viewed as the state's responsibility to care for them if they get sick or injured. $350,000 surgery and all subsequent medical bills? You get that for free as long as you're facing years in prison when it happens.

So let's say that an 18-year-old football player rapes and murders a young girl and gets sentenced to life in prison. If he lives to 72, the state will have paid $671, 868 to care for him. Should he require that $350,000 surgery at any point in his life, that's over $1 million that has been spent to keep him alive and under government care as long as he lives. With the average life expectancy in the United States and the knowledge that the prisoners will get regular meals and proper health care without ever needing to worry about the price, each prisoner who's facing life can easily end up with the state spending hundreds of thousands on them.

Regarding the cost of the death penalty that organizations like Amnesty International mention, they admit that the vast majority comes from the actual case and not the execution. Injecting someone with a cocktail of drugs or shooting him in the medulla is cheap. The expensive stuff is what has to be paid by the state for the trial and pretrial.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: davedan on March 21, 2013, 06:12:46 pm
Practical reason? The cost of the state maintaining the person's life for however long they live. The state will need to pay for their food and medical services at a minimum, unless you plan on keeping them in utterly inhumane conditions that no first world country would ever approve of. Assuming Ask Men is correct, a 2008-2009 report by the Legislative Analyst's Office estimates that California spends $12,442 per year on each inmate. Some prisoners even get better health care than the guards, since it's viewed as the state's responsibility to care for them if they get sick or injured. $350,000 surgery and all subsequent medical bills? You get that for free as long as you're facing years in prison when it happens.

So let's say that an 18-year-old football player rapes and murders a young girl and gets sentenced to life in prison. If he lives to 72, the state will have paid $671, 868 to care for him. Should he require that $350,000 surgery at any point in his life, that's over $1 million that has been spent to keep him alive and under government care as long as he lives. With the average life expectancy in the United States and the knowledge that the prisoners will get regular meals and proper health care without ever needing to worry about the price, each prisoner who's facing life can easily end up with the state spending hundreds of thousands on them.

Regarding the cost of the death penalty that organizations like Amnesty International mention, they admit that the vast majority comes from the actual case and not the execution. Injecting someone with a cocktail of drugs or shooting him in the medulla is cheap. The expensive stuff is what has to be paid by the state for the trial and pretrial.

Yes actually killing people is cheap. But the costs of due  process and the appeals and the stays and requests for clemency that it involves are expensive. More expensive than simply keeping them in prison for life.

Now if you were to go the Chinese method where they can appeal but the sentence won't be stayed (and is usually carried out before the appeal) and you send the family of the executed person the bill for the bullet, well then yes it is cheap. But in the US System keeping them in jail for life is cheaper than killing them.

Apart from the whole "what if we made a mistake" thing, I personally have an objection to the Death penalty. The State says murder is wrong and then commits it. Because make no mistake that is exactly what the Death Penalty is - State sanctioned murder. I want to live in a State that is not murderous. Then again some people think that prison itself is bad and we should be like the Romans, basically monetary penalties or slavery for most things, death for the rest and no prisons at all.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Rabbit of Caerbannog on March 21, 2013, 06:17:32 pm
I agree with what others have said about the death penalty being nothing more than an expression of vengeance and nothing more. It serves no practical purpose that imprisonment cannot solve. I'm ashamed that our country still offers this morally backwards punishment. It wasn't even until a few years ago that the Supreme Court decided that executing minors--fucking minors--was unconstitutional. Only a handful of countries including ours have executed children since 1990: Iran, China, DRC, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Yeman and Sudan. We also offer the death penalty for drug offenses (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3591), and share that honor with Afghanistan, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Zimbabwe, Vietnam and fourteen other countries.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: syaoranvee on March 21, 2013, 07:15:30 pm
http://www.kmov.com/news/crime/Police-St-Charles-child-sex-abuse-case-one-of-the-worst-theyve-ever-seen-156119115.html (http://www.kmov.com/news/crime/Police-St-Charles-child-sex-abuse-case-one-of-the-worst-theyve-ever-seen-156119115.html)

Read about that case. It's one of those litmus test things, it's so bad. Some acts are so heinous, it is hard to argue the high road, that society should be above capital punishment, that death is not a justified sentence. I don't think very many death sentences are really necessary, but some just are.

No one was killed in that case.  Therefore a death sentence is unjustified in that case.  "Eye for an eye" is the way to go.

Er, why?


A taking of a life can only be equaled to a taking of a life, want to castrate those guys, cut their balls off, fine.  The death penalty should only be used in the taking of life when a life has been stolen.

Now for the reason I am pro-death:

I don't believe in a afterlife, I believe this there is this life and that's it.  So imagine walking down the street one day, living your normal life and going up to the store a block a half mile away....and then suddenly it's over.  Someone decided your life was worthless in comparsion to your money and credit cards and shot you in the head.  That's overly bullshit for anyone and the fact is, if a person's done it once, they'll do it again.  A person's life who had no reason to die will always outweigh a person who kills them for personal benefit or to get their rocks off.  Killing a murderer insures there will never be any more victims other then the first ones, it's a preventive measure (http://www.wesleylowe.com/repoff.html).  I rather look like a monster and save lives in the future then allow these real monsters even the improable chance of them managing to get out and kill again while the highrollers make themselves feel good by not killing them.

Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Witchyjoshy on March 21, 2013, 07:25:25 pm
Yes, please, cite a website that is unashamedly pro-death penalty.

Please ignore all of the innocents that have been executed over the years, including a recent case where circumstances shed light on a situation where a man who was proven guilty of murder was actually innocent, and yet they executed him anyways because they wouldn't even listen.

Please ignore the fact that the death penalty has absolutely no effect on the rate of murder.

Please ignore all of the rehabilitated murderers who did not reoffend.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Rabbit of Caerbannog on March 21, 2013, 07:27:09 pm
http://www.kmov.com/news/crime/Police-St-Charles-child-sex-abuse-case-one-of-the-worst-theyve-ever-seen-156119115.html (http://www.kmov.com/news/crime/Police-St-Charles-child-sex-abuse-case-one-of-the-worst-theyve-ever-seen-156119115.html)

Read about that case. It's one of those litmus test things, it's so bad. Some acts are so heinous, it is hard to argue the high road, that society should be above capital punishment, that death is not a justified sentence. I don't think very many death sentences are really necessary, but some just are.

No one was killed in that case.  Therefore a death sentence is unjustified in that case.  "Eye for an eye" is the way to go.

Er, why?


A taking of a life can only be equaled to a taking of a life, want to castrate those guys, cut their balls off, fine.  The death penalty should only be used in the taking of life when a life has been stolen.

Now for the reason I am pro-death:

I don't believe in a afterlife, I believe this there is this life and that's it.  So imagine walking down the street one day, living your normal life and going up to the store a block a half mile away....and then suddenly it's over.  Someone decided your life was worthless in comparsion to your money and credit cards and shot you in the head.  That's overly bullshit for anyone and the fact is, if a person's done it once, they'll do it again.  A person's life who had no reason to die will always outweigh a person who kills them for personal benefit or to get their rocks off.  Killing a murderer insures there will never be any more victims other then the first ones, it's a preventive measure (http://www.wesleylowe.com/repoff.html).  I rather look like a monster and save lives in the future then allow these real monsters even the improable chance of them managing to get out and kill again while the highrollers make themselves feel good by not killing them.
I should point out that the way to stop murderers from being released is to give them longer sentences and deny them parole. Thus you keep them away from the outside world and don't have to take a life. But otherwise your post really shows what the death penalty is about: revenge. A life for a life. It's an understandable reaction, but merely a visceral one.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: JohnE on March 21, 2013, 08:13:04 pm
Apart from the whole "what if we made a mistake" thing, I personally have an objection to the Death penalty. The State says murder is wrong and then commits it. Because make no mistake that is exactly what the Death Penalty is - State sanctioned murder. I want to live in a State that is not murderous. Then again some people think that prison itself is bad and we should be like the Romans, basically monetary penalties or slavery for most things, death for the rest and no prisons at all.
The way I look at it is, if someone attacks you with a knife, trying to kill you, you fight back and kill them in the struggle, that's self defense. But if you wrestle the attacker to the ground, disarm him, pin him down so he can't hurt you any more, think about it for a minute, and THEN you kill him, that's murder.

The state using lethal force is similar. If the police kill a suspect who was trying to use kill them or a civilian, that's legitimate use of force. But if they arrest a suspect, convict him, lock him in a prison system from which successful escapes are virtually nonexistent, and THEN kill him, that's not legitimate.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Auggziliary on March 21, 2013, 08:25:19 pm
http://www.kmov.com/news/crime/Police-St-Charles-child-sex-abuse-case-one-of-the-worst-theyve-ever-seen-156119115.html (http://www.kmov.com/news/crime/Police-St-Charles-child-sex-abuse-case-one-of-the-worst-theyve-ever-seen-156119115.html)

Read about that case. It's one of those litmus test things, it's so bad. Some acts are so heinous, it is hard to argue the high road, that society should be above capital punishment, that death is not a justified sentence. I don't think very many death sentences are really necessary, but some just are.

No one was killed in that case.  Therefore a death sentence is unjustified in that case.  "Eye for an eye" is the way to go.

Er, why?


A taking of a life can only be equaled to a taking of a life, want to castrate those guys, cut their balls off, fine.  The death penalty should only be used in the taking of life when a life has been stolen.

Now for the reason I am pro-death:

I don't believe in a afterlife, I believe this there is this life and that's it.  So imagine walking down the street one day, living your normal life and going up to the store a block a half mile away....and then suddenly it's over.  Someone decided your life was worthless in comparsion to your money and credit cards and shot you in the head.  That's overly bullshit for anyone and the fact is, if a person's done it once, they'll do it again.  A person's life who had no reason to die will always outweigh a person who kills them for personal benefit or to get their rocks off.  Killing a murderer insures there will never be any more victims other then the first ones, it's a preventive measure (http://www.wesleylowe.com/repoff.html).  I rather look like a monster and save lives in the future then allow these real monsters even the improable chance of them managing to get out and kill again while the highrollers make themselves feel good by not killing them.

Bolded part: But why? Like I understand what you're saying, but what is your reasoning?


Eye for an eye isn't really a... "just" way of looking at things. It seems quite barbaric actually... Plus why do you think every murderer is a complete psycho?
Also, putting a serial killer in prison would save just as many victims, so that doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Jack Mann on March 21, 2013, 11:26:56 pm
I believe the ultimate purpose of justice is to make the world as safe for the innocent as possible.  Yes, sometimes that means punishing criminals.  Locking them away where they can't hurt anyone.  But I don't see where killing them serves that purpose.  It doesn't reduce crime rates.  Lock them away forever, it gets the same results.  And if you're wrong, and you kill someone, there's no way to take that back.  And there have been a lot of people on death row who were proven innocent.

It isn't worth it to kill innocent men to try and kill the guilty ones.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: gomer21xx on March 22, 2013, 12:13:38 am
I think I'm one of those weirdos that is more prone to argue against the death penalty, but not because of human error or corruption (though, those do happen and are good reasons against it), but because I think it's too goddamn swift of a punishment!

If it's proven that some guy rapes a small child, then I say lock his ass in a cell and drive him bonkers.  Torture his ass!  "Cruel and unusual punishment", you say?  Raping children is cruel and unusual!  I wanna see him suffer!
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Rabbit of Caerbannog on March 22, 2013, 12:16:07 am
If it's proven that some guy rapes a small child, then I say lock his ass in a cell and drive him bonkers.  Torture his ass!  "Cruel and unusual punishment", you say?  Raping children is cruel and unusual!  I wanna see him suffer!
And that's why the Eighth Amendment exists ;D
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: chitoryu12 on March 22, 2013, 12:49:32 am
I think I'm one of those weirdos that is more prone to argue against the death penalty, but not because of human error or corruption (though, those do happen and are good reasons against it), but because I think it's too goddamn swift of a punishment!

If it's proven that some guy rapes a small child, then I say lock his ass in a cell and drive him bonkers.  Torture his ass!  "Cruel and unusual punishment", you say?  Raping children is cruel and unusual!  I wanna see him suffer!

Depending on what they did, they're not really going to suffer. For the rest of their life, at a minimum, they have all of their food and health needs taken care of without having to lift a finger. Life in prison's hard, but the state takes care of them. If they did bad enough to be booted into solitary confinement and are only let out for 1 hour of the day, they're safe from any other inmates who may want to abuse them and they still get things like books and music players given to them (so it's not just sitting in a dark cell and being miserable until they hang themselves with their bedsheets).

Also, the whole "I want them to suffer!" bit is another reason why emotional knee jerks aren't allowed in lawmaking.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: syaoranvee on March 22, 2013, 12:54:50 am
If it's proven that some guy rapes a small child, then I say lock his ass in a cell and drive him bonkers.  Torture his ass!  "Cruel and unusual punishment", you say?  Raping children is cruel and unusual!  I wanna see him suffer!
And that's why the Eighth Amendment exists ;D

I always found it ironic when people champion how America is against cruel and unusual punishment when we know the government has some pretty fucked up tests to people in secrecy and we pardoned alot of people from WW2 on the medical side of things due to gathering excellent data (http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/NaziMedEx.html) on what they did to people against their will (ie. freezing, phosgene gas, etc).

Not to mention the fucked up shit that tends to pop up out of Guantanamo Bay from time to time.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: R. U. Sirius on March 22, 2013, 07:00:43 pm
http://congress-courts-legislation.blogspot.com/2013/03/patty-wetterling-questions-sex-offender.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CongressCourtsAndNationalLegislationccl+%28Congress%2C+Courts+and+National+Legislation+%28CCL%29%29 (http://congress-courts-legislation.blogspot.com/2013/03/patty-wetterling-questions-sex-offender.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CongressCourtsAndNationalLegislationccl+%28Congress%2C+Courts+and+National+Legislation+%28CCL%29%29)

A woman whose son was abducted in 1989 and has yet to be found questions the efficacy of current sex-offender laws.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patty_Wetterling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patty_Wetterling)

I know that pointing up who a person is in an argument is incredibly weak from a logical standpoint, but I think it is still worth thinking about that this would be the LAST person most would expect to push for this type of change.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on March 23, 2013, 01:42:54 am
I think I'm one of those weirdos that is more prone to argue against the death penalty, but not because of human error or corruption (though, those do happen and are good reasons against it), but because I think it's too goddamn swift of a punishment!

If it's proven that some guy rapes a small child, then I say lock his ass in a cell and drive him bonkers.  Torture his ass!  "Cruel and unusual punishment", you say?  Raping children is cruel and unusual!  I wanna see him suffer!

Depending on what they did, they're not really going to suffer. For the rest of their life, at a minimum, they have all of their food and health needs taken care of without having to lift a finger. Life in prison's hard, but the state takes care of them. If they did bad enough to be booted into solitary confinement and are only let out for 1 hour of the day, they're safe from any other inmates who may want to abuse them and they still get things like books and music players given to them (so it's not just sitting in a dark cell and being miserable until they hang themselves with their bedsheets).

Also, the whole "I want them to suffer!" bit is another reason why emotional knee jerks aren't allowed in lawmaking.

Uhh, Chitoryu, solitary isn't a bed of fucking roses.  Yeah, you'd be safe from everyone else, but isolation will REALLY fuck with your mind in horrible ways.  I spent the first six months in the house in which I currently live almost completely alone.  My mom and brother both worked, and their schedules were such that I didn't usually wake in time to talk to them, and went to bed before they got home.  My dad spent almost all his time at my aunt's house down the road, and we had no internet, so I was pretty much completely cut off from people for half a year.

Wanna know what that did to me?  It nearly drove me fucking insane in ways which I'm still recovering from, nearly 5 years later.  Humans are social creatures, we by and large need other humans, or we lose our god damned minds.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Rabbit of Caerbannog on March 23, 2013, 02:06:13 am
I think I'm one of those weirdos that is more prone to argue against the death penalty, but not because of human error or corruption (though, those do happen and are good reasons against it), but because I think it's too goddamn swift of a punishment!

If it's proven that some guy rapes a small child, then I say lock his ass in a cell and drive him bonkers.  Torture his ass!  "Cruel and unusual punishment", you say?  Raping children is cruel and unusual!  I wanna see him suffer!

Depending on what they did, they're not really going to suffer. For the rest of their life, at a minimum, they have all of their food and health needs taken care of without having to lift a finger. Life in prison's hard, but the state takes care of them. If they did bad enough to be booted into solitary confinement and are only let out for 1 hour of the day, they're safe from any other inmates who may want to abuse them and they still get things like books and music players given to them (so it's not just sitting in a dark cell and being miserable until they hang themselves with their bedsheets).

Also, the whole "I want them to suffer!" bit is another reason why emotional knee jerks aren't allowed in lawmaking.

Uhh, Chitoryu, solitary isn't a bed of fucking roses.  Yeah, you'd be safe from everyone else, but isolation will REALLY fuck with your mind in horrible ways.  I spent the first six months in the house in which I currently live almost completely alone.  My mom and brother both worked, and their schedules were such that I didn't usually wake in time to talk to them, and went to bed before they got home.  My dad spent almost all his time at my aunt's house down the road, and we had no internet, so I was pretty much completely cut off from people for half a year.

Wanna know what that did to me?  It nearly drove me fucking insane in ways which I'm still recovering from, nearly 5 years later.  Humans are social creatures, we by and large need other humans, or we lose our god damned minds.
Here's an excellent article (http://betweenthebars.org/posts/10568/magazine-article-rolling-stone-slow-motion-torture) on solitary confinement that appeared in Rolling Stone. I tried to find a free copy and this scan is the best I could do, but it's quite easy to read at least. Here's a piece (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/10/donald-o-hebb-effects-extreme-isolation) on the psychological effects of extreme isolation from Mother Jones.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: rookie on March 23, 2013, 08:27:43 pm
Depending on what they did, they're not really going to suffer. For the rest of their life, at a minimum, they have all of their food and health needs taken care of without having to lift a finger. Life in prison's hard, but the state takes care of them. If they did bad enough to be booted into solitary confinement and are only let out for 1 hour of the day, they're safe from any other inmates who may want to abuse them and they still get things like books and music players given to them (so it's not just sitting in a dark cell and being miserable until they hang themselves with their bedsheets).

I read that and have to ask you this. It sounds like you're saying prison is kind of a sweet gig, what with the state taking care of you and all. So am I misreading that?
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: chitoryu12 on March 23, 2013, 09:17:44 pm
Depending on what they did, they're not really going to suffer. For the rest of their life, at a minimum, they have all of their food and health needs taken care of without having to lift a finger. Life in prison's hard, but the state takes care of them. If they did bad enough to be booted into solitary confinement and are only let out for 1 hour of the day, they're safe from any other inmates who may want to abuse them and they still get things like books and music players given to them (so it's not just sitting in a dark cell and being miserable until they hang themselves with their bedsheets).

I read that and have to ask you this. It sounds like you're saying prison is kind of a sweet gig, what with the state taking care of you and all. So am I misreading that?

You're making a strawman of it. Is prison good? Not at all. It can be dangerous if you're among the general population, you're obviously lacking almost all freedom and entertainment, the food is crap, and conditions are uncomfortable.

But it's not a horror story, either. You're always fed and watered and you get full medical care, all without having to work for it. In fact, huge numbers of prisoners end up relapsing and going back to jail (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/35263313/ns/business-careers/#.UU5Tgxw3shQ) because their felony convictions keep them from getting jobs (especially in this tight economy). At least behind bars, they don't starve. And they get free healthcare.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Auggziliary on March 24, 2013, 04:27:53 pm
Man this thread makes prison seem kinda decent. Now I'm tempted to kill people.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: chitoryu12 on March 24, 2013, 05:35:11 pm
Man this thread makes prison seem kinda decent. Now I'm tempted to kill people.

Well, be prepared to keep going back. Years on the inside doesn't do good things for them when they get released. The world's probably in a different state (especially if they've spent 10 years or longer behind bars), and nobody except for specific programs and employers will want to hire felons unless they have no choice. I can't find the sources now, but there's been people who have gotten themselves back in jail just because it's easier than being unemployed and potentially homeless.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: rookie on March 25, 2013, 08:53:33 am
You're making a strawman of it. Is prison good? Not at all. It can be dangerous if you're among the general population, you're obviously lacking almost all freedom and entertainment, the food is crap, and conditions are uncomfortable.

But it's not a horror story, either. You're always fed and watered and you get full medical care, all without having to work for it. In fact, huge numbers of prisoners end up relapsing and going back to jail (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/35263313/ns/business-careers/#.UU5Tgxw3shQ) because their felony convictions keep them from getting jobs (especially in this tight economy). At least behind bars, they don't starve. And they get free healthcare.

I wasn't doing anything other than asking for clarification. I didn't realize that equals building a strawman. Thanks. Help like that will only make me a better poster here.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Distind on March 25, 2013, 02:05:22 pm
Honestly I think a lot of this comes down to what you think the law exists to do.

Protect Victims, punish the guilty or remove/rehabilitate those committing crimes.

I sit in group 1 pretty comfortably, Gomer's sits in group 2 pretty easy, and a lot of people sit in group 3.

Deal with enough people who are scared simply because a person is still out there and you might understand why I don't see any problem with the rare use of the death penalty. I will agree there is overuse now, and I do believe it should sit to a much higher standard of evidence than a standard criminal trial does. But I see no issue with it's use in particularly egregious cases when the subject has willfully rejected any possibility of reform. After all, you're not going to get great results out of the guy who tells the family of his victims to fuck off.

Edit:
Though everyone remember to wrap a bandana around your face, we're jacking this thread!
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: R. U. Sirius on March 25, 2013, 07:12:05 pm
Quote
Colorado's tough sex offender laws are supposed to keep predators under tight supervision.

But a series of lawsuits claim that the system is violating even minor offenders' rights to free speech and association, prohibiting contact with family members -- and, in one particularly bizarre case, telling a 62-year-old man that a discussion with a stepdaughter about her pregnancy constitutes unlawful "third party contact with a child."

http://congress-courts-legislation.blogspot.com/2013/03/civil-rights-lawsuits-attack-excesses.html

Can anyone here who supports such "one size fits all" approaches to sex offenses tell me what purpose is served by forcing a woman to remove all pictures of her grandchildren from her house when her husband is convicted of an offense that doesn't involve children? Of calling discussing an adult's pregnancy "unlawful third-party contact with a child"?

For that matter, can anyone here tell me what purpose is served by treating all sex offenders as if they were violent serial pedophiles?
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 25, 2013, 07:13:52 pm
Quote
Colorado's tough sex offender laws are supposed to keep predators under tight supervision.

But a series of lawsuits claim that the system is violating even minor offenders' rights to free speech and association, prohibiting contact with family members -- and, in one particularly bizarre case, telling a 62-year-old man that a discussion with a stepdaughter about her pregnancy constitutes unlawful "third party contact with a child."

http://congress-courts-legislation.blogspot.com/2013/03/civil-rights-lawsuits-attack-excesses.html

Can anyone here who supports such "one size fits all" approaches to sex offenses tell me what purpose is served by forcing a woman to remove all pictures of her grandchildren from her house when her husband is convicted of an offense that doesn't involve children? Of calling discussing an adult's pregnancy "unlawful third-party contact with a child"?

For that matter, can anyone here tell me what purpose is served by treating all sex offenders as if they were violent serial pedophiles?

It makes the politicians look as if they're doing something about those few who are violent serial pedophiles.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: chitoryu12 on March 25, 2013, 07:40:52 pm
Quote
Colorado's tough sex offender laws are supposed to keep predators under tight supervision.

But a series of lawsuits claim that the system is violating even minor offenders' rights to free speech and association, prohibiting contact with family members -- and, in one particularly bizarre case, telling a 62-year-old man that a discussion with a stepdaughter about her pregnancy constitutes unlawful "third party contact with a child."

http://congress-courts-legislation.blogspot.com/2013/03/civil-rights-lawsuits-attack-excesses.html

Can anyone here who supports such "one size fits all" approaches to sex offenses tell me what purpose is served by forcing a woman to remove all pictures of her grandchildren from her house when her husband is convicted of an offense that doesn't involve children? Of calling discussing an adult's pregnancy "unlawful third-party contact with a child"?

For that matter, can anyone here tell me what purpose is served by treating all sex offenders as if they were violent serial pedophiles?

It makes the politicians look as if they're doing something about those few who are violent serial pedophiles.

People need to remember that laws aren't necessarily passed and written for maximum efficacy. We're a very reactionary people, rather than preventive. It's why laws discussed after something violent or otherwise bad occurs are always in the "What do we ban?" or "How much more do we punish?", rather than "How do we keep this from happening in the first place?"

The problem is that something that isn't reactionary doesn't look like it's doing anything. People can always see measures taken after a crime occurs, like demands to ban particular firearms or firearm accessories or new restrictions on sex offenders. Things like better mental health systems and better education don't have visible effects, sometimes for years after they're implemented. It makes it look like nothing is being done.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Rabbit of Caerbannog on March 25, 2013, 09:12:16 pm
Though everyone remember to wrap a bandana around your face, we're jacking this thread!
Hell yeah!
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Scotsgit on March 25, 2013, 09:47:53 pm
Hard one this for me, I've worked with prisoners in the past.  Some have been genuinely remorseful (one refused early release because he said he should serve his time), others have delighted in their crimes.  Now, it has to be said that these weren't sex offenders (the ones I worked with were lifers), but I have to wonder if the attitude was the same amongst all criminals.

Take the Moors Murderers:  Here we have two people who, had they been convicted a few months earlier, would have done the hemp fandango.  As it is, both were sentenced to life imprisonment.  And both have continued to play mind games with both the public and the families of their victims, Myra Hindely was notorious for this and would play on the naivete of people like Lord Longford (who supported her release) and who she could dance rings around claim that she was reformed and it was the nasty Government keeping her locked up, why weren't Amnesty coming to support her....  And Longford believed all her claptrap.  He was even siding with her when she said that she would give up the location of the last two graves if she was given early release.  Which doesn't sound that reformed to me.  Her boyfriend, Brady, has been on Hunger Strike for about ten years, claiming he wants to have the right to die, thus making sure he gets the limelight of publicity shone upon him.  Both he and Hindley were acutely aware how much distress it caused the families of their victims each time they did something to end up in the papers.  As I said at the beginning, a few months earlier and they would both have hung and I can't say the world would have missed them.

But, of course, what if someone does reform?  What if, when they get out, they want to make amends for their crimes?  If we execute them, then this chance is taken away from them.

I can't answer it, I'd say that putting someone on a sex offenders register for life should help, but that each person put on it should have their convictions looked at to see if it actually warrants it, which to me at least, pissing in a back alley doesn't!
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: R. U. Sirius on January 21, 2014, 10:59:04 am
Quote
“If it saves one child….” Even though we cannot know if “it” has, that statement is responsible for the abuse and even death of many children.

There is no actual evidence that the registry has saved even one child; however, we do know that many, many thousands have had their lives made a living hell because of it. These are the children of those on the registry, some of whom committed violent crimes, but many, even most, who did not. All on the registry, with their families, are subject to the whims of local and state restrictions including, but by no means limited to, severe restrictions on where they may live; denial of access to libraries, parks and beaches with their children; and restrictions barring the registered parent from often even being within a 1000 feet of the school his child attends. Very recently a woman took the picture of a registrant that she printed from the Internet to the school where the registrant’s five-year-old son was a kindergarten student; she showed it around, warning children about this man. His little boy stood and cried. The registry doesn’t differentiate. It doesn’t make it clear to people who threaten, harass, and do physical violence to registrants, their property, and their families whether daddy raped someone or whether he had sex with mommy before they were married when she was a year too young or whether he looked at an illegal image on a computer or whether he was innocent and falsely accused. And, sadly, most don’t really care. The perception is that everyone on the registry has committed a serious crime and that most if not all offended against children. And if they have children of their own who are harmed, as so many have been and so many more will be, it is just collateral damage because the registry might—MIGHT—save one child.

“If it saves one child….” Children themselves are registrants on sex offender registries. Nine years old is apparently the youngest at which children have been put on the registry (Delaware; Michigan). (1) Several states, including but not limited to Colorado, Delaware, Georgia, Kansas, Ohio, Michigan, and Texas, register children as sexual criminals at ages ten and eleven. By the time twelve is reached, it isn’t even a rarity. And the fifteen year old who is the child victim for having consensual sex with an eighteen year old partner becomes a predator and registered sex offender when his or her partner is fourteen. In Wisconsin last year a district attorney did everything he could, and bragged about it, to have a six year old prosecuted and targeted for sex offender registration for “playing doctor.”(2) Three year olds caught looking at and touching each other in a daycare bathroom were reported and investigated for “sexual fondling.”(3) Some of these children, after several years of being on the registry and treated as monsters, have committed suicide. The registry didn’t save any of these children; it destroyed them.

http://www.corrections.com/news/article/30787-if-it-saves-one-child (http://www.corrections.com/news/article/30787-if-it-saves-one-child)

This is a thread necro, but I felt this article would be better placed here than starting another topic.

In the interest of full disclosure, I am on the sex offender registry. My crime was online viewing of child pornography, and I'm not going to try to defend or justify what I did. I was so desperate to feel anything other than anger and depression that I did a terrible thing; that's not a defense, that's just context. I am not a monster.

As I stated in the past, I would have no problem with the registry if access were limited to law enforcement-if a new crime is committed, it makes sense for them to look at people they know have committed similar crimes first. But the public registry serves as an almost insurmountable barrier to successful reintegration into society. I've been turned down for jobs that have nothing to do with children or computers because of my crime. I've been fired when employers who hadn't asked any questions about my criminal history at the job interview found out, and I count myself EXTREMELY lucky that my current employer didn't do the same. I just recently finished fighting false criminal charges that were predicated SOLELY on my registry status; every piece of forensic evidence supported my defense, and the prosecution even went so far as to tamper with and destroy some of it because of that, trying to push forward on the accusation of a single "witness". If it weren't for my past or if it were any other crime, the charges would have been dropped long ago or not pursued at all.

The public registry falls under cruel and unusual punishment by any reasonable definition, driven by fear, myths and media hype. The definition of what constitutes a sex crime has become so broad as to be useless, and even those who have committed actual crimes are given little opportunity to show that they have changed and get off it. It brands them a danger to the community for years or decades after they've been rehabilitated, and the fact that there are sites which post information on sex offenders even after they get off the registry means that many are still haunted by it long after they actually manage to get off. Legislators constantly extend the time a person is required to register because it's an easy way to score political points, and they get around ex post facto laws by claiming it's not a punishment.

The children and families in the article above would beg to differ.

http://www.corrections.com/news/article/24500-facts-and-fiction-about-sex-offenders (http://www.corrections.com/news/article/24500-facts-and-fiction-about-sex-offenders)
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: gyeonghwa on January 21, 2014, 12:02:35 pm
Hella necro.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: mellenORL on January 21, 2014, 08:02:52 pm
I started reading the comments in the first linked blog post cited by Sirius....holy whargarble! This one commenter is - I dunno what he is. He's all over the map on the fundie meter.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: JohnE on January 21, 2014, 08:17:41 pm
That was an entertaining read, though I can see a somewhat cogent point burried under the whargarble. i.e. Teenagers aren't the same thing as children, and maybe we ought to be giving them more legal autonomy and responsibility than children to help the transition to adulthood, rather than just saying, "18th birthday? You're an adult now. Deal with it."

On the other hand, it sounds like the poster was caught banging a 14 year old and is just bitter about it.
Title: Re: Sex Offender Registries and Further Punishment: The Thread
Post by: Cerim Treascair on January 22, 2014, 02:37:17 am
I'll poke my head in here (and probably get my beak lopped off for it)

... I was put on the sex offender registry at 13 years old.  I did something I will regret for the rest of my life.  I won't go into details.  That being said, when you're raised that 'sex is bad' and your mother is a fundie Christian, and she's the first one to make sure the courts put me ON that registry (again, at 13 years old... I hadn't even had sex ed yet, that didn't come until my sophomore year in high school), and then I couldn't find work until I was 18 because of being on that registry... I had to get my record sealed by the court in order to have a hope in hell of ever making a living.

So... yeah.  The thing is incredibly terrible.  There's better ways to do things than this.