Author Topic: Michigan now Right to Work state.  (Read 32775 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TenfoldMaquette

  • Pope
  • ****
  • Posts: 333
Re: Michigan now Right to Work state.
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2012, 05:33:55 am »
Whatever reason we wish?  Tch... they're not even required to have a reason at all.

True, but they usually document some official "reason" as a defense in case you try to sue or collect unemployment.

Offline Lt. Fred

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 2994
  • Gender: Male
  • I see what you were trying to do there
Re: Michigan now Right to Work state.
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2012, 05:41:17 am »
I don't think anyone should have to pay a fee or dues to work.

In a perfect world people would be able to choose to take a 1/3 pay cut if they wanted. In the real world, unions are required by law to spend money representing all workers, it would create a tragedy of the commons to allow people to become freeloaders, which is why many states create right to be paid poorly laws.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
-FDR

Offline Sylvana

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1016
  • Gender: Female
Re: Michigan now Right to Work state.
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2012, 06:34:31 am »
Ok I am very confused.
How on earth is this some kind of polar spectrim situation? What exactly is a "right to work" state?

If people do not want to pay unions, they don't have to. If they feel they are being oppressed, they can choose to join a union, find another job, or just organize a joint protest of his fellow workers, union or not. All unions are, are systems that allow for the administration of organizing a mass worker protest to be done easier. They are not strictly needed, but they help.

That said, I have seen far to many unions become parasitic monstrosities that look out for their bottom line far more than the needs of the workers. I have seen unions protect the employment of teachers that should be in school themselves instead of trying to teach. I have also seen unions organizing protests that cause damage and loss of effective pay to such a degree that the workers come out worse as a result where the only people who win are the unions who get a bigger cut of worker salaries.

I really am failing to see how right to work is some kind of clear cut case between being fired / mistreated against being unionized.

Offline Qlockworkcanary

  • Bishop
  • ***
  • Posts: 178
  • Gender: Male
Re: Michigan now Right to Work state.
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2012, 10:17:58 am »
Ohio is a right to work state, which we've always defined as a right to get fired whenever for no real reason if the company chooses to. It's very frightening at times to have that hanging over your head when your life depends on that job, as most people do.
"Out of the ash I rise with my red hair and eat men like air." - Sylvia Plath

Offline m52nickerson

  • Polish Viking
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1386
  • Gender: Male
  • Winning by flying omoplata!
Re: Michigan now Right to Work state.
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2012, 12:15:00 pm »
Ohio is a right to work state, which we've always defined as a right to get fired whenever for no real reason if the company chooses to. It's very frightening at times to have that hanging over your head when your life depends on that job, as most people do.

Is the whole "right to get fired for no reason" real or just a talking point?  Is it codified into law in the Right to Work legislation?  If so where?
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. ~Macbeth

Offline TheReasonator

  • Bishop
  • ***
  • Posts: 239
Re: Michigan now Right to Work state.
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2012, 01:50:17 pm »
What if we allowed unions to negotiate for benefits that only go to people who are in the union? Then you can work without belonging to the Union, but you don't get the free rider benefits.

Offline kefkaownsall

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3253
  • Gender: Male
Re: Michigan now Right to Work state.
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2012, 02:41:18 pm »
That would work but that would not destroy the union

Offline dpareja

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 5680
Re: Michigan now Right to Work state.
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2012, 04:47:15 pm »
That would work but that would not destroy the union

Yeah, it's what seems like the reasonable compromise--the fact that it isn't used belies the real reason for the law.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Lt. Fred

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 2994
  • Gender: Male
  • I see what you were trying to do there
Re: Michigan now Right to Work state.
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2012, 08:24:44 pm »
What if we allowed unions to negotiate for benefits that only go to people who are in the union? Then you can work without belonging to the Union, but you don't get the free rider benefits.

How would you go about doing that? Set up union and non-union wages? I don't think it would work.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
-FDR

Offline Lt. Fred

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 2994
  • Gender: Male
  • I see what you were trying to do there
Re: Michigan now Right to Work state.
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2012, 08:42:19 pm »
Ohio is a right to work state, which we've always defined as a right to get fired whenever for no real reason if the company chooses to. It's very frightening at times to have that hanging over your head when your life depends on that job, as most people do.

Is the whole "right to get fired for no reason" real or just a talking point?  Is it codified into law in the Right to Work legislation?  If so where?

Who's going to protect you if the union collapses?

Ok I am very confused.
How on earth is this some kind of polar spectrim situation? What exactly is a "right to work" state?

If people do not want to pay unions, they don't have to. If they feel they are being oppressed, they can choose to join a union, find another job, or just organize a joint protest of his fellow workers, union or not.

I would imagine that a right to work state would be one that provided a guaranteed job or educational opportunities/job training for everyone, or perhaps one that ensured the victims of NAIRU a civilised minimum income. So, Sweden, somewhere like that. Ironically, it would probably have to be heavily unionised.

In fact, a 'Right to Work State' is no such thing. Many citizens of 'Right to Work' states are forced into unemployment by government fiat (NAIRU et al) without any appropriate compensation. In fact, the citizens' alleged 'right' to work is, if anything, less recognised in RTW states than elsewhere (Sweden, as I said; North Korea, the Soviet Union, 1950s Australia).

A RTW state is a state that tries to force its citizens out of trade unions by creating a Tragedy of the Commons. Just as the road networks benefit everyone and are therefore paid for by everyone, trade unions are legally obliged to represent all workers and therefore should be paid for by everyone. There's no effective way to create choice here- your right to choose is overwhelmed by your right to form a union.

Typically, people join unions in order to get paid better, just as corporations form monopolies to drive down wages (though obviously monopolies have other negative consequences as well). A union worker can expect to be paid about 10-30% more for the same work as a non-unionised worker. There are other advantages as well; unions act as a check on corporate power by pooling worker resources together in legal and other challenges, ect. The purpose of a union is to bargain collectively, since the bargaining power of an organisation is greater than the sum of its parts.

Now, that's very annoying if you'd quite like to pay your workers poorly. So, instead of competing in a fair market, most businesses would quite like the government to step in and prevent proper competition (something they always complain about whenever anyone else wants to do it). Typically, this takes the form of tacitly legalised (though de jure criminal) firings of union leaders and members during and after union elections. Something like one third of union elections end in at least one breach of the law by the employer with the intention of coercing workers no to unionise. With powers like that, it's quite surprising that anyone remains in a union, a testament to the power of collective bargaining.

Obviously, the last part of your post is just unfair nonsense. Yes, many areas of the human endeavour are flawed. Corporations, for instance, are usually law-breakers. Should we close them all down?
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
-FDR

Offline TenfoldMaquette

  • Pope
  • ****
  • Posts: 333
Re: Michigan now Right to Work state.
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2012, 08:48:34 pm »
Is the whole "right to get fired for no reason" real or just a talking point?  Is it codified into law in the Right to Work legislation?  If so where?

Yes, it's real, but it's being given the wrong name.

"At Will Employment" = Your employer can fire you (and you, the employee, can quit) without legal need of notice or reason.

"Right to Work" = You have the right to work at a company without being required to join a Union or pay dues.

The two concepts are linked in the workplace, however. Unions are the primary source of all employee benefits including the 40-hour work week, lunch breaks, rest periods, minimum wage, retirement, workplace safety standards, etc. They also provide a legal recourse to fight unjust treatment of workers by their employers; to fund this, they require that the employees they represent actually pay for services rendered.

Make a state a "Right to Work" state, and the employees stop paying dues because they complacently (and naively) believe that the benefits they enjoy are freely given; they've never known different, so why would they think otherwise? The Union hemorrhages money and dies, and the company begins stripping benefits and pay from its workers in order to shovel more of that expense money back into the CEO's pocket. The workers don't approve, but lack the individual means to do anything about it; the ones who stick their neck out to insist on fair treatment get fired as an example. Thanks to working in an "At Will Employment" company, they have no legal recourse to this treatment. The workers' standard of living falls and they can do nothing about it; ALL the companies that operate there will do this to them, so there is no way to meaningfully flee this type of employment.

This kind of stuff happens all the time. The two terms are not interchangeable, but they are the bestest of best friends.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 08:57:37 pm by TenfoldMaquette »

Offline m52nickerson

  • Polish Viking
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1386
  • Gender: Male
  • Winning by flying omoplata!
Re: Michigan now Right to Work state.
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2012, 09:51:14 pm »
"At Will Employment" was what I was looking for, thank you.

Perhaps when works start to get benefits stripped away they should start paying.  On the flip side employees can use this law to starve and kill a union they don't like.
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. ~Macbeth

Offline dpareja

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 5680
Re: Michigan now Right to Work state.
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2012, 10:47:55 am »
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Qlockworkcanary

  • Bishop
  • ***
  • Posts: 178
  • Gender: Male
Re: Michigan now Right to Work state.
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2012, 11:58:40 am »
Sorry -haven't been back online to respond in the last few days. "At Will Employment" was actually what I was thinking about -got the terms confused there.
"Out of the ash I rise with my red hair and eat men like air." - Sylvia Plath