Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought

[dpareja]

You're assuming that these incidents would even have been reported. The Church (and Christianity generally) had a far firmer grip on Western society eighty years ago, so it's entirely possible victims would never have come forward, and also, the people who would have been abused then would be around ninety years old by now.

Plus, records can be destroyed.

And anyway, the Church has had sex scandals going back centuries--look at how many children Roderic de Borja had, by mistresses no less. (He acknowledged four; some sources claim he had up to six more.)

If he were Pope now, of course, he probably would have forced his mistresses to have abortions.

Well over 80 years ago, there would be records of victims reporting cases to secular authorities.

And the Catholic Church considers Pope Alexander VI to be one of the bad popes for breaking the Church’s code of celibacy.

80 years ago, secular authorities were, as already noted, even more subservient to Christianity than they are today.

Well the United States was majority Protestant so the authorities in the US 80 years ago would not be subservient to the Catholic Church, so such scandals in the United States would be reported

No, because you're missing the other side of the problem: the grip which the Church had on its laity. Those who were abused by clergy would have been afraid to admit it to anyone because of the fear and obedience instilled in them by the Church.

[ironbite]

Guys I'm pretty sure Jacob's brain is so wrapped up in fucking his second cousin, who's a lesbian now that niam had his cock in her mind, that he can't actually think of anything rational.

Ironbite-pretty sure we can put this one to bed

[dpareja]

Guys I'm pretty sure Jacob's brain is so wrapped up in fucking his second cousin, who's a lesbian now that niam had his cock in her mind, that he can't actually think of anything rational.

Ironbite-pretty sure we can put this one to bed

I crossposted to R&P, we can maybe discuss this there.

[Jacob Harrison]

You're assuming that these incidents would even have been reported. The Church (and Christianity generally) had a far firmer grip on Western society eighty years ago, so it's entirely possible victims would never have come forward, and also, the people who would have been abused then would be around ninety years old by now.

Plus, records can be destroyed.

And anyway, the Church has had sex scandals going back centuries--look at how many children Roderic de Borja had, by mistresses no less. (He acknowledged four; some sources claim he had up to six more.)

If he were Pope now, of course, he probably would have forced his mistresses to have abortions.

Well over 80 years ago, there would be records of victims reporting cases to secular authorities.

And the Catholic Church considers Pope Alexander VI to be one of the bad popes for breaking the Church’s code of celibacy.

80 years ago, secular authorities were, as already noted, even more subservient to Christianity than they are today.

Well the United States was majority Protestant so the authorities in the US 80 years ago would not be subservient to the Catholic Church, so such scandals in the United States would be reported

No, because you're missing the other side of the problem: the grip which the Church had on its laity. Those who were abused by clergy would have been afraid to admit it to anyone because of the fear and obedience instilled in them by the Church.

You're assuming that these incidents would even have been reported. The Church (and Christianity generally) had a far firmer grip on Western society eighty years ago, so it's entirely possible victims would never have come forward, and also, the people who would have been abused then would be around ninety years old by now.

Plus, records can be destroyed.

And anyway, the Church has had sex scandals going back centuries--look at how many children Roderic de Borja had, by mistresses no less. (He acknowledged four; some sources claim he had up to six more.)

If he were Pope now, of course, he probably would have forced his mistresses to have abortions.

Well over 80 years ago, there would be records of victims reporting cases to secular authorities.

And the Catholic Church considers Pope Alexander VI to be one of the bad popes for breaking the Church’s code of celibacy.

80 years ago, secular authorities were, as already noted, even more subservient to Christianity than they are today.

Well the United States was majority Protestant so the authorities in the US 80 years ago would not be subservient to the Catholic Church, so such scandals in the United States would be reported

No, because you're missing the other side of the problem: the grip which the Church had on its laity. Those who were abused by clergy would have been afraid to admit it to anyone because of the fear and obedience instilled in them by the Church.

Well it wasn’t until the 1980s that the scandal came out so if it the abused did not report the cases, then how were there records of allegations going back 50 years from 2001, and why did the records only go back around 50 years and not further than that?

[dpareja]

Because victims were too scared of the Church to report it and police were too deferential to religion generally, and by the time this stuff was exposed the victims from before then were really old?

[Jacob Harrison]

Because victims were too scared of the Church to report it and police were too deferential to religion generally, and by the time this stuff was exposed the victims from before then were really old?

The scandal was first revealed in the 1980s and 1990s, so those who lived before the 1940s would not be old enough that they would be dead.

[dpareja]

Because victims were too scared of the Church to report it and police were too deferential to religion generally, and by the time this stuff was exposed the victims from before then were really old?

The scandal was first revealed in the 1980s and 1990s, so those who lived before the 1940s would not be old enough that they would be dead.

Their indoctrination (both religious and cultural) would also be even heavier, and so they would be more mentally resistant to speaking out against religion.

[Jacob Harrison]

Because victims were too scared of the Church to report it and police were too deferential to religion generally, and by the time this stuff was exposed the victims from before then were really old?

The scandal was first revealed in the 1980s and 1990s, so those who lived before the 1940s would not be old enough that they would be dead.

Their indoctrination (both religious and cultural) would also be even heavier, and so they would be more mentally resistant to speaking out against religion.

But in the wake of a scandal being exposed, they would want to reveal what happened realizing that they are not alone.

[dpareja]

Because victims were too scared of the Church to report it and police were too deferential to religion generally, and by the time this stuff was exposed the victims from before then were really old?

The scandal was first revealed in the 1980s and 1990s, so those who lived before the 1940s would not be old enough that they would be dead.

Their indoctrination (both religious and cultural) would also be even heavier, and so they would be more mentally resistant to speaking out against religion.

But in the wake of a scandal being exposed, they would want to reveal what happened realizing that they are not alone.

Not necessarily, their indoctrination is deeper and so they may be more afraid of going to Hell, and of social ostracization, if they speak out against the Church.

[ironbite]

Oh my god just stop please I'm begging you.

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

As I said cultures of abuse take a long time to develop. Regardless I note Harrison has shifted from "naughty priests are a result of V2" to "naughty priests are a result of a cultural shift that happened at an arbitary time before V2 who's boundries I'll redefine if you evidence me again. "

Because falsifiable claims can be toppled and if you can't convince them-gaslight 'em, right Jake?

There's also the fact that the clergy who aided and abetted coverups, like George Pell were more conservative and less liberal in their beliefs. Jacob shows us why in fact, when confronted uncomfortable beliefs the believer in strict Catholic morality has no qualms about gaslighting, goalpost shifting, intellectual honesty or truth so long as they are defending the lily-white facade of Mother Church.

[Jacob Harrison]

Because victims were too scared of the Church to report it and police were too deferential to religion generally, and by the time this stuff was exposed the victims from before then were really old?

The scandal was first revealed in the 1980s and 1990s, so those who lived before the 1940s would not be old enough that they would be dead.

Their indoctrination (both religious and cultural) would also be even heavier, and so they would be more mentally resistant to speaking out against religion.

But in the wake of a scandal being exposed, they would want to reveal what happened realizing that they are not alone.

Not necessarily, their indoctrination is deeper and so they may be more afraid of going to Hell, and of social ostracization, if they speak out against the Church.

Well in the 1990s the Vatican apologized for the crisis(before continuing to further covering it up) so by then they would know that it wouldn’t be violating Catholic doctrine to speak up about it.

[Jacob Harrison]

As I said cultures of abuse take a long time to develop. Regardless I note Harrison has shifted from "naughty priests are a result of V2" to "naughty priests are a result of a cultural shift that happened at an arbitary time before V2 who's boundries I'll redefine if you evidence me again. "

Because falsifiable claims can be toppled and if you can't convince them-gaslight 'em, right Jake?

There's also the fact that the clergy who aided and abetted coverups, like George Pell were more conservative and less liberal in their beliefs. Jacob shows us why in fact, when confronted uncomfortable beliefs the believer in strict Catholic morality has no qualms about gaslighting, goalpost shifting, intellectual honesty or truth so long as they are defending the lily-white facade of Mother Church.

George Pell is conservative by today’s standards, but he is a Vatican 2 Conservative not a traditionalist Catholic who still has Latin Mass. In the Church what was liberal in the 1960s could be considered conservative today. Benedict XVI, the traitor who resigned from the Church causing Francis to become Pope is an example as exposed on this traditionalist Catholic site.

https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/3786-et-tu-benedict-some-final-thoughts-on-joseph-ratzinger

“Who is the real Joseph Ratzinger?

I have had long-time Vatican watchers say to me, more than once, “Maybe it’s really just that he wasn’t who we thought he was.” I suspect there is a lot more to this than most people might imagine. I think we made the mistake of believing the press. We were delighted that the bitterly anti-Catholic media hated and feared him. We failed to recall that they know nothing at all about Catholicism.

What the papers never told us was that as a young priest and theologian Joseph Ratzinger was known as a “progressive,” as the term was understood in 1962. This reputation was cemented during his work as the peritus, the theological advisor, of one of the Council’s most influential of the bishops of the progressive camp, Cardinal Josef Frings of Cologne. Frings’ claim to fame in that great drama was a speech criticising the CDF – and its prefect Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani – for the “conservatism” in the “schema,” the documents prepared by the CDF for guiding the bishops’ discussions.”

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

That's ok Jacob, if you had an audience of people like you then your bullshit apologies for Mother Church might work.

Becausee those people would desperately want to believe that bollocks. We are not that audience!

[dpareja]

Here is the apology that would be acceptable from the Vatican:

Sell all of their assets.

Distribute the proceeds among all victims of clerical sex abuse.

Hand over all clergy involved, in any way, in said abuse, whether in committing it, covering it up, or engaging in victim-blaming.

Shut down operations and cease to be a blight on humanity.

EDIT: And apologize for the incredibly evil teaching of Hell, which has probably been responsible for more nightmares (at least of things that aren't real) than anything else in the history of humanity.