Author Topic: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries  (Read 101159 times)

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Offline The_Queen

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #150 on: February 27, 2016, 06:33:03 pm »
Considering how much more popular Sanders is than Clinton with independents, I desperately hope you're wrong, Queen.

Clinton might get more done as President, but she couldn't get anything done if she can't get elected.

The national electability polls have never been very reliable, especially this far out. Likewise, the fact that Sanders won a primary or two does nothing for his electability in a general election (McGovern and Goldwater both secured their party's nominations--winning the majority of their primaries in the process--only to get peckerslapped in the general).

But, I think that it doesn't bode well for Bernie's "electability" when Hillary is more popular in the swing states that will be necessary to win the general: Iowa, Nevada, Virginia, Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Florida. Bernie is up in Colorado, but Colorado is increasingly blue and might be a solid democratic state come November. Missouri and New Mexico, two other swing states, haven't had any polls done at this time that I am aware of.
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Offline nickiknack

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #151 on: February 27, 2016, 08:06:18 pm »
At this point I hope the we see a revolt within the Democratic Party. I'll be more than happy to supply the fireworks. The Democratic Party needs to taken out back and shot like rabid animal.

Offline The_Queen

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #152 on: February 27, 2016, 08:50:07 pm »
At this point I hope the we see a revolt within the Democratic Party. I'll be more than happy to supply the fireworks. The Democratic Party needs to taken out back and shot like rabid animal.

I would've taken the exact same stance if Obama lost in 2008. In fact, I highly encourage everyone to leave any institution that they are a part of if that institution (1) holds democratic elections to fill positions and (2) you're person doesn't win. It's the mature thing to do. [/jest]

Jest over, Nicki, I want to ask you a hypothetical. If Bernie were to win the nomination (still a possibility), and I were to not vote because my candidate did not, would you think that I was a fucking idiot?
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Offline nickiknack

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #153 on: February 27, 2016, 09:10:06 pm »
I will be voting, either Green Party, or writing in a name just for shits and giggles. The Democratic Party is not my party anymore, but you don't understand because you're nothing more than a phony (as a member of the DSA, I would like you to stop calling yourself a "socialist" because socialists don't support shitty trade deals that keep on giving power to the Corporations), who's more than happy to eat the scraps that Hillary will give you. She's proven herself to be nothing more than a lying snake. And  I know many Independents who think the same way, right and left, and they will probably stay home  election night, because they don't like no one. The Democrats sold their souls with electing Bill Clinton, and they've been going down hill ever since, the progressives have every reason to abandon the party, and tell the establishment to go fuck themselves.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 09:25:28 pm by nickiknack »

Offline Svata

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #154 on: February 27, 2016, 09:49:34 pm »
Other than that making it more likely whatever shitstain the GOP rolls out gets in, yeah, sure, bail. Look, I like Sanders, but I'd rather Hillary than Rubio or Cruz. Or, for fucks sake, Trump.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #155 on: February 27, 2016, 10:01:43 pm »
To Queen and nicki (and generally anybody else who strongly prefers one of Clinton or Sanders to the other): if neither candidate has, from their pledged delegates, a majority of all delegates to the national convention, what would you think if the superdelegates handed the nomination to the candidate with fewer pledged delegates?
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Offline nickiknack

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #156 on: February 27, 2016, 10:07:50 pm »
Who gives a shit, the DNC will crown their Queen, and lose in the GE while people like me sit on the sidelines and say "I told you so".

Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #157 on: February 27, 2016, 10:15:30 pm »
Who gives a shit, the DNC will crown their Queen, and lose in the GE while people like me sit on the sidelines and say "I told you so".


Subsequently fucking the country even harder than if Hillary won.  Wow.  Nicki, I like Sanders, but fucking hell are you coming across like a petulant child.  Or a sports fan.  Seriously, if your guy doesn't make it, then at least help us get someone that will be less likely to ream us in the collective ass.  First-past-the-post systems inevitably end in a two-party split.  Not voting, or voting 3rd party, only does harm to the cause about which you claim to care.

Screw this, direct question, Nicki: would you prefer we take a tiny step forward, or a massive step back?  Because a Hillary victory would be the former, and a GOP victory would be the latter.
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Offline The_Queen

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #158 on: February 27, 2016, 10:27:36 pm »
I will be voting, either Green Party, or writing in a name just for shits and giggles. The Democratic Party is not my party anymore, but you don't understand because you're nothing more than a phony (as a member of the DSA, I would like you to stop calling yourself a "socialist" because socialists don't support shitty trade deals that keep on giving power to the Corporations), who's more than happy to eat the scraps that Hillary will give you. She's proven herself to be nothing more than a lying snake. And  I know many Independents who think the same way, right and left, and they will probably stay home  election night, because they don't like no one. The Democrats sold their souls with electing Bill Clinton, and they've been going down hill ever since, the progressives have every reason to abandon the party, and tell the establishment to go fuck themselves.

First off, I don't recognize the authority of your corporate entity that you can excommunicate me from my political philosophy, that shapes the identity of who I am. How did you feel when feminist icon Gloria Steinem said girls go for bernie to get laid? Or Albright saying there was a special place in hell for women who don't support Bernie? They're feminist icons in their own establishments, and they sought to distance feminism from Bernie. And now, you're doing the same to me because you recently got  a membership card in the mail from some group that you probably paid $29.95 to join.

And second, I see it as incredibly short-sighted on your part. Change isn't just made legislatively, it is made judicially. I want you to stop and reflect for a moment. The conservatives had a 5-4 majority on the Court since Reagan. Just with the most recent make-up we've had, that 5-4 majority showed up in areas such as: citizen's united, abortion, civil rights for African Americans, rights for the criminally accused, rights to contraception, article III standing liability (redefining and restricting who can sue and for what harms, often fucking over the environment), police brutality, labor unions, employee rights, discrimination by employers, and gun control. The Court has gotten it wrong on a lot of conservative issues on the 5-4 split. One of the few glowing areas has been same-sex marriage, where Kennedy splits from the conservatives.  Roberts, another recent split on Obamacare, upheld the Affordable Care Act that provided health care to 16 million people. This, to a degree, highlights the radical chance that can occur within one field where the Court is on our side. Another liberal justice will go a long way in fair pay cases (now standing before the Court), access to abortion rights (again, standing before the Court), Citizen's united, and gun control. And, at the very least, as Bush v. Gore--and 8 years of Bush--showed us, the Supreme Court can be of the greatest importance in the most unpredictable of ways.

Further, a conservative justice will all but start and incremental assault on gay rights. Already states are considering legislation pushed by anti-LGBT groups to discriminate against trans-people using bathrooms. A conservative would certainly start these minor restrictions and others (for example, novel issues to the Court: Michigan's sexual orientation-neutral sodomy law* or conversion therapy) to allow discrimination to be a state's rights issue, setting the movement, and real people's lives, back 25 or 30 years in some places.

At this point, we're not talking about Bernie vs. Hillary, we're talking Hillary vs. Trump/Cruz/Rubio. These incremental changes such as the Supreme Court will have huge effects. If the republicans delay, and the dems win, it guarantees a Justice (plus another possible three other Justices who are up in age). Hillary would certainly appoint a justice that would overturn Citizen's United, would uphold corporate liability, that would require fair pay between races and sexes, that would expand labor rights, would expand access to abortion and contraception, and minority civil rights. Even if you disagree with me on one or two or three of theses, there are so many other areas where a liberal Justice would make differences, and Hillary would appoint a liberal justice. Whichever GOP clown would not. And I don't know how you can be so short-sighted to not vote Hillary just because she isn't perfect. Yeah, she may fuck shit up in some places--as would Bernie (because they're human and a lot of pressure is on them)--but she's far better than Trump, Cruz, or Rubio.

And before you start on living in blue state New York, that is a total cop-out that avoids the substance of the issue. This whole #BernieOrBust movement going around, that you were part of before it existed as a hashtag, has got to die. Statistics today can tell with certainty whether the state I'm voting in (Ohio) is even up for grabs among any candidate. They can tell me with a fair degree of certainty who will win the elections, and if they're close enough for my vote to be statistically meaningful. Sure they have faults, but with proper skepticism, they are far more accurate than not (otherwise, Nate Silver wouldn't have a job). But to the substance, if I can say at the outset, that for the greater good of many groups, even if they're not my pet politician or group, that I will vote for the democrats to keep the GOP from fucking shit up, then why can't you?

*Lawrence v. Texas, the Supreme Court case that legalized sodomy as a matter of civil rights, had a concurrence that caused its legalization. O'Conner concurred on the grounds that it was not neutral as to partners (punishing only sodomy between same sex couples) and violated equal protection. In fact, Bowers v. Hardwick, the case allowing sodomy laws, dealt with and upheld a sexual orientation neutral sodomy ban). A conservative Court could easily make slight, but meaningful, interpretations to allow an incremental attack on gay rights in many places.

ETA: And I use the Supreme Court as an example. The president alone is responsible for appointment to executive agencies, diplomacy, executive orders, and certain appointments that handle administrations that can easily broaden or narrow enforcement and rights. Even then, the Senate is probably gonna shift back to the democrats now, so liberal appointments to important organizations (such as the National Labor Review Board) can resume. There is a lot at stake.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 10:36:05 pm by The_Queen »
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Offline nickiknack

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #159 on: February 27, 2016, 10:30:51 pm »
I'm not voting for rotten liars who peddles trade deals, while telling unions that she opposes them at the same time. You want to continue to support the faux liberal party of the Democrats go ahead, but I'm not, until if and when they decide to clean up their act. Enjoy your oligarchy, don't whine that you weren't warned, but decided to  go with the "so called" safe choice instead.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 10:39:25 pm by nickiknack »

Offline lord gibbon

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #160 on: February 27, 2016, 10:34:19 pm »
Bingo. Hillary is decent on social issues, even if she tacks to the wind more than a sailing ship, but she is simply unacceptable on economics.
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Offline The_Queen

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #161 on: February 27, 2016, 10:47:40 pm »
I'm not voting for rotten liars who peddles trade deals, while telling unions that she opposes them at the same time. You want to continue to support the faux liberal party of the Democrats go ahead, but I'm not, until if and when they decide to clean up their act. Enjoy your oligarchy, don't whine that you weren't warned, but decided to  go with the "so called" safe choice instead.

At this point, you're not even trying to argue, you're just attempting to sound prophetic as wiser than thou. And this is the fundamentalist attitude that I am talking about that is particular to certain few Bernie supporters.
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Offline nickiknack

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #162 on: February 27, 2016, 10:52:42 pm »
I'm not the one supporting someone who has a damn Indian grave yard in their closet. I get it, you like to continue neo-liberalism just to say safe, while at this point I've had it with this shit. I'm working class, I have nothing left to lose at this point.

Offline lord gibbon

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #163 on: February 27, 2016, 10:54:59 pm »
I'm with Nicki, Queen seems to have taken on a rather fundamentalist swing here.
Excuse me, sir, do you have a minute to talk about your lord and savior, Hannibal Barca?

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Yeah, if the pagans are so smart, why did Jesus invade Pagan-land on the back of a dragon and kill them all!

Offline dpareja

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #164 on: February 27, 2016, 10:59:07 pm »
I'm with Nicki, Queen seems to have taken on a rather fundamentalist swing here.

Really?

Queen, if Sanders wins the Democratic nomination, would you vote for him?
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