2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries

[Skybison]

Unpopular Opinion:  I don't think Hillary Clinton's foreign policy is really that bad.

Is she overly hawkish?  Probably.  But I think I am Lizard, Damen, etc are blowing it out of proportion.  She's not going to cause any disaster comparable to George W or Lyndon Johnson's.  And I think the anti-hillary crowd are oversimplyfing complicated situation like Libya to give her more blame then she deserves.  She's just going to be another four to eight years of Obama, not a dangerous warmonger.

EDIT: Before he dropped out Kasich released an ad warning of the terrible evils that would be unleashed when Trump's nomination gave Hillary the white house:

Upon defeating Donald Trump in the largest landslide since Reagan in 1984, President Hillary Clinton is preparing to name her newest Supreme Court justice, Elizabeth Warren. (House) Speaker Nancy Pelosi is planning new tax hikes, hoping that Senate President Chuck Schumer and his new Democratic majority can swiftly get it to the President’s desk for her signature.”

“New executive orders restricting the Second Amendment are being drafted while increased federal spending on Obamacare is readied. Meanwhile, our allies across the world are swiftly losing faith in America’s role as a global leader, empowering our enemies and leaving America in a more dangerous position. But we have hope it can be different...”

Justice Elizabeth Warren sounds great, I hope Hillary gets to do all of these things.

[lord gibbon]

Frankly, it's not her foreign policy that worries me, it's her economic policy.

[Skybison]

Yeah I do have more agreement with the anti-hillary parts of the internet on economics.  The US needs some big changes to fix the problems that caused the great recession and Hillary seems very unlikely to do them.  But Foreign policy I really don't think she's as bad as people say she is.

[dpareja]

EDIT: Before he dropped out Kasich released an ad warning of the terrible evils that would be unleashed when Trump's nomination gave Hillary the white house:

Upon defeating Donald Trump in the largest landslide since Reagan in 1984, President Hillary Clinton is preparing to name her newest Supreme Court justice, Elizabeth Warren. (House) Speaker Nancy Pelosi is planning new tax hikes, hoping that Senate President Chuck Schumer and his new Democratic majority can swiftly get it to the President’s desk for her signature.”

“New executive orders restricting the Second Amendment are being drafted while increased federal spending on Obamacare is readied. Meanwhile, our allies across the world are swiftly losing faith in America’s role as a global leader, empowering our enemies and leaving America in a more dangerous position. But we have hope it can be different...”

Justice Elizabeth Warren sounds great, I hope Hillary gets to do all of these things.

Link to ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=395aeuCSu2k

[Skybison]

Okay I'll go threw the rest of these links in a bit, but the first link you provided is a perfect example of what I'm talking about:

So it's true that the State Department (then led by Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State) strongly opposed a minimum wage increase in Haiti in 2009. However, the State Department's efforts did not occur in a political or economic vacuum, and Clinton wasn't the sole architect of efforts to quash a minimum wage hike (as the meme suggests).  It was a concerted effort on the part of Haitian elites, factory owners, free trade proponents, U.S. politicians, economists, and American companies that kept the minimum wage so low, and to lay the blame squarely at the feet of any sitting Secretary of State would be an incomplete assessment, and thus inaccurate.

I'm not claiming that Hillary Clinton hasn't done bad things.  I'm not denying there are some major criticisms that can be leveled at her.  I'm arguing that Bernie Bro types are taking legitimate issues with her and greatly exaggerating them and oversimplifying situations to blame them on her personally.  Exactly like your snopes link says.

Edit: Your third link agrees

the cables do not contain conclusive evidence that the State Department actively pressured Haiti to block the increase nor do they prove that Clinton personally played a role.

Links 4 and 5:

Okay I agree that the US government is far too willing to look the other way over Israel's human rights abuses.  But none of that is anything especially bad about Hillary, merely that she is a typical democrat. 

[Skybison]

Nah, it's alright.  But remember dude Don't Go Full Paragon.  Just posting a bunch of links isn't the same thing as an argument, and make sure you read them first too make sure they actually make you're point.  Because I'm half way through your list and 5/8 of your links don't support their being anything worse then normal about her foreign policy.  For the Haiti thing two out of three said she was being disproportionately blamed and the other didn't mention her.  Yes it's possible she was involved but that's not the same thing as evidence.  It's possible that you are the Boston Strangler after all.

The Honduras stuff was more substantive, although I know little about the matter, but just listing "here's a bunch of bad stuff she did" doesn't prove she's terrible overall.  I could easily provide links about FDR's Japanese interment or the failures of some of his New Deal policies, but that would not prove he was a terrible president.

[Askold]

Some places like Imgur are crawling with political spammers. I don't know how popular Hillary Clinton is but she certainly has the most haters.

[Askold]

Interesting if true. And how did Bush win Dukakis if he was that much more popular? The usual election shenanigans or were people just voting for their party regardless of who the candidate was?

[mellenORL]

I voted for Dukakis. He's a good pol. Former CIA Director George H.W. Bush was Reagan's VP, Reagan had 8 years to mesmerize the American collective psyche to a net result of popular, regardless that he was an extremely evil, treasonous fuck (Iran Contra scandal). Keep in mind that Dukakis had been Governor of Massachusetts - traditionally regarded the most liberal state....and that too many Americans then and now are shallow, naïve and prejudiced over all.



Majority of Americans were thinking (and saying out loud) - "Dukakis? No way! Too liberal. Too Greek. Too short. Georgie has experience! Georgie looks Presidential! Georgie learned everything on Grandpa Reagan's knee! We love Grandpa!"
 

[Dr. Weird]

Interesting if true. And how did Bush win Dukakis if he was that much more popular? The usual election shenanigans or were people just voting for their party regardless of who the candidate was?

I voted for Dukakis. He's a good pol. Former CIA Director George H.W. Bush was Reagan's VP, Reagan had 8 years to mesmerize the American collective psyche to a net result of popular, regardless that he was an extremely evil, treasonous fuck (Iran Contra scandal). Keep in mind that Dukakis had been Governor of Massachusetts - traditionally regarded the most liberal state....and that too many Americans then and now are shallow, naïve and prejudiced over all.

Majority of Americans were thinking (and saying out loud) - "Dukakis? No way! Too liberal. Too Greek. Too short. Georgie has experience! Georgie looks Presidential! Georgie learned everything on Grandpa Reagan's knee! We love Grandpa!"
 

I was still too young to vote in 1988, but it was the first Presidential election I really followed.  To expand a little on what mellenORL said (which is correct):

--Dukakis had a couple of major gaffes that reinforced the whole "too liberal" thing.  A terrible debate performance where he was asked a disgusting question about his wife being murdered, which he tried to answer instead of telling the moderator to fuck off, which made him look cold and inhuman.  There was also the photo op with him in a tank, that looked almost as ridiculous as Duhbya playing fighter pilot.

--Karl Rove's spiritual predecessor Lee Atwater created a vile, race-baiting attack ad associating Dukakis with Willie Horton, a black (like I said, race-baiting) murderer who killed again after being let out on parole.  So basically "Dukakis would let all the scary black killers out of prison to murder you and probably rape your white daughters." (Basically, change 'black" to "Mexican" and it's a lot like what Drumpf sounds like now.)

[Ultimate Paragon]

--Karl Rove's spiritual predecessor Lee Atwater created a vile, race-baiting attack ad associating Dukakis with Willie Horton, a black (like I said, race-baiting) murderer who killed again after being let out on parole.  So basically "Dukakis would let all the scary black killers out of prison to murder you and probably rape your white daughters." (Basically, change 'black" to "Mexican" and it's a lot like what Drumpf sounds like now.)

While there was probably some race-baiting involved (Southern strategy, after all), the main reason is that Horton was an embarrassment to Dukakis, who vetoed a bill that would've prohibited first-degree murderers like Horton from participating in the furlough program.  But even with that context, it was still a nasty act of shameless demagoguery.

[dpareja]

In the realm of things not particularly relevant: Clinton has extended her lead on Sanders by 1 delegate by winning four delegates to his three in the Guam caucus.

Also in the realm of things not particularly relevant: Sanders may meanwhile have gained a delegate on Clinton from the Maine state convention. The caucuses had him estimated to take 16 to Clinton's 9, but the convention looks to award him 17 to her 8.

[The_Queen]

Nah, it's alright.  But remember dude Don't Go Full Paragon.  Just posting a bunch of links isn't the same thing as an argument, and make sure you read them first too make sure they actually make you're point.  Because I'm half way through your list and 5/8 of your links don't support their being anything worse then normal about her foreign policy.  For the Haiti thing two out of three said she was being disproportionately blamed and the other didn't mention her.  Yes it's possible she was involved but that's not the same thing as evidence.  It's possible that you are the Boston Strangler after all.

The Honduras stuff was more substantive, although I know little about the matter, but just listing "here's a bunch of bad stuff she did" doesn't prove she's terrible overall.  I could easily provide links about FDR's Japanese interment or the failures of some of his New Deal policies, but that would not prove he was a terrible president.

I wasn't trying to prove she was bad, just that her foreign policy is. I'm not totally sure how I could show she's not a good canidate, I'm pretty sure the burden of proof would be on her supporters.

Also point taken on Hati.

Issues of good or bad candidates is a matter of opinion. As such, there is no burden of proof since it is purely subjective.

[dpareja]

West Virginia: Sanders wins, but it's still looking to be too little, too late.

[I am lizard]

I don't understand the argument that Hillary will compromise better. Republicans hate her so much for the Benghazi I think she could make a bill adding Ronald Reagan to mt. Rushmore and they'd be against it.