Author Topic: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries  (Read 101164 times)

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Offline dpareja

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #435 on: May 20, 2016, 10:37:26 pm »
I don't understand the argument that Hillary will compromise better. Republicans hate her so much for the Benghazi I think she could make a bill adding Ronald Reagan to mt. Rushmore and they'd be against it.

Yeah, but on occasion she'll propose things they like. Sanders wouldn't.
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Offline Ironchew

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #436 on: May 20, 2016, 10:48:54 pm »
I don't understand the argument that Hillary will compromise better. Republicans hate her so much for the Benghazi I think she could make a bill adding Ronald Reagan to mt. Rushmore and they'd be against it.

Yeah, but on occasion she'll propose things they like. Sanders wouldn't.

If you want a president the Republicans like, then it's more straightforward to elect a Republican.
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Offline The_Queen

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #437 on: May 20, 2016, 11:49:25 pm »
I don't understand the argument that Hillary will compromise better. Republicans hate her so much for the Benghazi I think she could make a bill adding Ronald Reagan to mt. Rushmore and they'd be against it.

Yeah, but on occasion she'll propose things they like. Sanders wouldn't.

No, the word is compromise. You know, working across the aisle. Barney Frank has been a staunch critic of Sanders for 25 years, and Barney's criticisms highlight this intransigence.

Quote from: Barney Frank
I think Bernie Sanders tends to have the approach, "Don’t be pragmatic, state your ideals, state what you think is the right policy, and be very wary of compromise and of accepting less than you want."

and

Quote from: Barney Frank
Bernie alienates his natural allies....His holier-than-thou attitude—saying in a very loud voice he is smarter than everyone else and purer than everyone else—really undercuts his effectiveness.

It also doesn't help Bernie that he alienates his colleagues in Congress (both chambers, mind you). Going to youtube will show you a great number of c-span videos where Bernie disses the very people he has to work with. Even in the third or fourth debate, Bernie said "it is no secret that the establishment is lining up to support Hillary Clinton" in reference to superdelegates. I mean, how do you think those superdelegates felt? Sure, some may have supported her due to a belief of inevitability, but many certainly supported her because they felt she was a better candidate for the position, and then to be denigrated on national television as some sort of conspiracy against him while being called "establishment." All of this is a long-winded way of saying that Bernie has even more of an uphill climb than Hillary, because he's alienated the very people necessary to legislate his policy proposals.

Also, I have no idea why people continue to call Hillary a republican, because if she is a republican, then so is Bernie: They've voted together 93% of the time, with most of their disagreements being non-substantive issues (when to end a debate). A review of her voting record shows she's a "hardcore liberal" to the left of most of her senate colleagues—including Obama. True, Bill Clinton presided as a moderate, but if feminism means anything, then it must mean that it is unfair to define Hillary's position by her husband's.
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Offline Skybison

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #438 on: May 21, 2016, 01:43:56 am »
I don't understand the argument that Hillary will compromise better. Republicans hate her so much for the Benghazi I think she could make a bill adding Ronald Reagan to mt. Rushmore and they'd be against it.

I think the issue is seeing Bernie as someone who talks big but doesn't have any real workable plan.  To quote Paul Krugman:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/08/opinion/sanders-over-the-edge.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&_r=1

Quote
Let me illustrate the point about issues by talking about bank reform.

The easy slogan here is “Break up the big banks.” It’s obvious why this slogan is appealing from a political point of view: Wall Street supplies an excellent cast of villains. But were big banks really at the heart of the financial crisis, and would breaking them up protect us from future crises?

Many analysts concluded years ago that the answers to both questions were no. Predatory lending was largely carried out by smaller, non-Wall Street institutions like Countrywide Financial; the crisis itself was centered not on big banks but on “shadow banks” like Lehman Brothers that weren’t necessarily that big. And the financial reform that President Obama signed in 2010 made a real effort to address these problems. It could and should be made stronger, but pounding the table about big banks misses the point.

I admit I don't know much about economics, but seeing someone like Krugman say Sander's politics are just empty populism that won't really help makes me a lot more ambivalent about supporting him.

Offline The_Queen

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #439 on: May 21, 2016, 02:16:21 am »
The point of that was to rile up voters. I don't think any delegate will care about Bernie saying rude things to them more than congress cares whenever a canidate insults them.

You just ignored my answer to your question (both compromise and 25 years of alienation) to focus on one lone example from a recent debate. Further, you pull a Paragon and say "I don't think" without providing any substantive basis for your position. Further, doing it to "rile up the voters" is not a good excuse, because it's a public denigration of the primary's procedure and questions the integrity of the superdelegates themselves.

According to BBC (I read the article!) Bernie is significantly to the left of Hillary on a number of issues, including healthcare and education.

I actually got it from 538, and I have never seen this BBC article (that you read!). Fivethirtyeight, citing ontheissues.org, wrote that "Clinton rates as a 'hard core liberal.'" Elaborating, fivethirtyeight wrote, "[Hillary] is as liberal as Elizabeth Warren and barely more moderate than Bernie Sanders."

Taking a peak at the charts that ontheissues put together, Hillary is more morderate than Bernie. The chart is slightly modified from the Nolan grid, but it is 100,0 (socially and economically liberal, respectively), 0,100 (socially and economically conservative), 100, 100 (libertarian), and 0,0 populist. Bernie is 100, 10, and Hillary is 80, 10. While a difference of 20 is noteworthy, it is also a bit misleading. The issue is not the difference between Bernie and Hillary, but where Hillary sits on the spectrum, and in that sense, she is clearly far to left. Focusing only on the liberal part (ignoring centrist part, and making anything 50+,50- in the liberal section, for simplicity), she's in the farthest 8% of the liberal spectrum. By difference, Bernie is in the farthest 2%. Yeah, she's more moderate than him, but not by much in the grand scheme of things. She remains a hardcore liberal.
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Offline The_Queen

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #440 on: May 22, 2016, 01:38:09 am »
Okay, first off I don't see how a single person not liking him counts as proof he can't work with anyone ever. For all I know he could be an outlier.

Secondly, you used anecdotal evidence to support your case that ranting about the establishment alienates delegates, but criticize me for making a case via anecdotal evidence. Pretty sure the Burden of proof is on you case.

I used that as the most recent example, from one of the most long-standing critics of Sanders. I pointed to several other examples over the months of Bernie alienating his colleagues. I most recently suggested looking up old C-span videos. More examples exist in written medium. Less than two years ago, Bernie stated, "the Democratic Party does not represent, and has not for many years, the interests of my constituency, which is primarily working families, middle-class people and low-income people." To Playboy, Bernie once stated "what the Democratic campaign program is about is: We’re pretty bad, but they’re worse, vote for us. That’s true: We’re pretty bad, but the Republicans are worse, and that’s the reason you should vote for Democrats." In a recent television ad Bernie stated (and was rated as mostly false) "Wall Street banks shower Washington politicians with campaign contributions and speaking fees. And what do they get for it? A rigged economy, tax breaks and bailouts, all held in place by a corrupt campaign finance system. And while Washington politicians are paid over $200,000 an hour for speeches, they oppose raising the living wage to $15 an hour. $200,000 an hour for them, but not even 15 bucks an hour for all Americans." Yeah, giving 20 million people healthcare, giving 4.2 million people a meaningful pay raise, and letting the Bush tax-cuts expire for all but the bottom 98% are really great examples of not caring about working families, middle-class people and low-income people. I'm not saying that the democrats are perfect, but making the good the enemy of the perfect only ensures that we wind up with nothing.

More so, even wikipedia says of Sanders, "During his first year in the House, Sanders often alienated allies and colleagues with his criticism of both political parties as working primarily on behalf of the wealthy." Representative Joe Moakley said of Bernie, "He screams and hollers, but he's all alone." Bill Richardson, who worked alongside Bernie in the House before becoming Governor of New Mexico, described Bernie as "a homeless waif" (referencing that nobody wants to work with him). It's no secret that Sanders has a quarter-century record of alienating off his colleagues. And in the alternative, let's assume that Bernie is right about his colleagues being beholden to Wall Street, fact remains that denigrating the institution of Congress and your colleagues is not a good way to get people on your side. And even if one does believe that congresspeople are beholden to big money, it is foolish to believe that the representatives (small "r") never do anything good for the middle and working class as there are countless examples to the contrary.

Quote
the other stuff
The difrence between getting your college tuition payed for and 5-10 years of college debt is rather substantial. What I'm saying is that small difrences aren't.

Politifact reported that Bernie's policy proposals to pay for free college is "mostly false." This does not even include unintended consequences of free college, such as increased students and increased need for professors and university buildings (which would raise the cost of paying for college, while the amount Bernie plans to allocate is based on today's figures). More fundamentally, it relies on an assumption that states would even go along with it (footing 1/3 of the bill), when the medicaid expansion in Obamacare provides strong evidence that such a thing would not happen across the nation (ergo, leaving some cost to the student to pay over 5-10 years). None of this should be seen as an attack on Bernie as much as a skepticism that he can fulfill his promises. In sum, I think that when looking at what Bernie can realistically accomplish alongside what Hillary could, the differences are pretty minor. Additionally, one thing I have noticed is that Hillary's policy proposals tend to utilize instances in which she could improve things by executive powers and presidential fiat (example, student loan rates), which do not need Congressional approval. That is the kind of policy wonk that I think would be best suited to the presidency, because, and I belabor the point after almost 9 months, I believe that she can get more things done that will help people in need.

Additionally, all this argument is is a focus on a specific portion of the record to highlight a difference as opposed to examining their aggregated records, which tells a more complete story. It's intellectually dishonest to focus solely on the part of their records that is most beneficial to yourself while ignoring the rest. It is spurious research done for the purpose of supporting the position you want (as opposed to finding the fact). Finally, fact is, Hillary and Bernie are incredibly similar politically (and I concede, Bernie is slightly to the left of Hillary), and it is a misrepresentation--if not a full-blown lie--to treat an exception to such a fact as the norm.

I respect you deeply and think you're probably one of the smartest board members. I just think you picking Hillary is dumb.

Cool story, bro.
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Offline The_Queen

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #441 on: May 23, 2016, 09:13:16 am »
You know what? It just occurred this argument is pointless as neither of us will back down from out position, and will just result in us becoming more bitter and (at least for me) stressed.

Unlike skyfire, I don't quote myself. But I will quote this girl, and she's a playa too.

Cool story, bro.
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Offline Askold

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #442 on: May 23, 2016, 09:50:00 am »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_S2G8jhhUHg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_S2G8jhhUHg</a>

...USA, you guys are weird.
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Offline I am lizard

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #443 on: May 24, 2016, 12:16:55 am »
I'll respond for you.

Cool story, bro.

Offline Skybison

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #444 on: May 24, 2016, 11:25:46 am »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrGlaUo4JEE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrGlaUo4JEE</a>

Offline davedan

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #445 on: May 24, 2016, 06:59:21 pm »
You know the more I watch of Samantha Bee, the more I think she has truly taken over John Stewart's mantle from the daily show, more than John Oliver, Stephen Colbert or Trevor Noah.

Offline The_Queen

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #446 on: May 24, 2016, 07:35:22 pm »
You know the more I watch of Samantha Bee, the more I think she has truly taken over John Stewart's mantle from the daily show, more than John Oliver, Stephen Colbert or Trevor Noah.

Same. I was just saying the other day that I enjoy Noah, I like Wilmer and Oliver, and I love Colbert, but Bee takes the cake. She has the in-depth reporting on issues that is only matched by Oliver, a finely tuned bullshit detector that exceeds the rest by miles, and the ability to land a punchline from out of no where. When this first season is up, she should get a nice payday. Hopefully TBS extends the show to a weekly 1 hour,or a daily 30 minute series. Either way, her show is amazing.
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Offline The_Queen

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #447 on: May 24, 2016, 08:25:40 pm »
Ok, I don't know where else to ask this, but what type of Socialist are you?

I don't know where else to say this: fuck off. I tried to change the subject by going along with Davedan on Bee. Nevertheless, that isn't good enough. In the past, you've passive aggressively taken jabs at me over socialism, and now you pretend all of that didn't happen, expecting me to explain myself as though I have a modicum of respect for you. I don't owe you a damn thing, let alone an explanation about my personal views. Seriously kid, who do you think you are?
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Offline davedan

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #448 on: May 24, 2016, 08:35:51 pm »
Well he claims to be a lizard. But honestly I'd like to know what sort of lizard he is. I suspect he's big noting himself and he's really a guppy.

Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #449 on: May 24, 2016, 08:36:01 pm »
Jesus Christ, Queen, calm down.  He asked a simple question, no need to bite a dude's head off.
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