Author Topic: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries  (Read 101159 times)

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Offline Ironchew

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #465 on: May 31, 2016, 01:10:40 am »
Does anyone really think Hillary's foreign policy is going to be drastically different from Obama's?

Not much different. That's why I didn't vote for Obama in 2012.
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Offline Skybison

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #466 on: May 31, 2016, 01:12:16 am »
^^I don't.  There are some serious criticisms to level at her but the Berniebro types are really hyperbolic about it.

Also Hillary Clinton isn't a Neoconservative.

Neocon, like fascist or socialist, is one of those terms that gets thrown around meaning "anything I dislike" but it has a specific meaning that only applies to a small number of people.  Liberal Interventionists like Hillary are quite different.

A Neoconservative is someone who walks into a bar, sees a scary looking guy and immediately attacks him and starts beating the shit out of him because he might start a fight.

A Liberal Interventionist walks into a bar, sees two other people fighting and tries to grab the brawlers and pull them apart.

One is trying to stop a fight, the other is out to start one.

Now that doesn't mean liberal interventionism is a good idea in all circumstances, lots of times it will only make the situation worse.  But there are also situations where liberal interventionists have helped to stop wars and minimized the death toll overall (The balkans in the late 90s, Tony Blair in Sierra Leone in 2000) so I'm not against it in principle.

Here's a blog post that puts it better then I'd be able too

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2016/03/02/libya-and-rwanda/

Offline davedan

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #467 on: May 31, 2016, 01:14:07 am »
Does anyone really think Hillary's foreign policy is going to be drastically different from Obama's?

Not much different. That's why I didn't vote for Obama in 2012.

Well I don't see how it's causing this much hand wringing because even with that neither Obama nor Clinton will be as bellicose as the Republicans nor will they be actively looking for wars for profit like their predecessor.

Offline I am lizard

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #468 on: May 31, 2016, 02:13:09 am »
Does anyone really think Hillary's foreign policy is going to be drastically different from Obama's?

Not much different. That's why I didn't vote for Obama in 2012.

Well I don't see how it's causing this much hand wringing because even with that neither Obama nor Clinton will be as bellicose as the Republicans nor will they be actively looking for wars for profit like their predecessor.
Libya and Honduras.

Offline Skybison

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #469 on: May 31, 2016, 02:52:53 am »
^Neither of which were started by Obama and Hillary, not were profits their motive.

There's plenty to criticize about the handling of those situations, but if they had stayed out of it bad shit would have happened anyway.

Libya was already in the middle of a civil war and it was Britain and France that started western intervention, not the US.  And I don't see what profits the US stood to gain from the situation.  Honduras I don't know as much about but it appears to have been a local power struggle that spiraled out of control.

Offline dpareja

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #470 on: May 31, 2016, 04:38:56 am »
Here's a question: with Republicans potentially splitting between pro-Trump and anti-Trump camps, and Democrats potentially splitting between pro-Clinton and anti-Clinton camps, does this election mark the beginning of the end for the sixth party system (or fifth if you think that one still continues)? And if it does, given the pressure toward a two-party system imposed by Duverger's Law and the first-past-the-post electoral system, what will the new coalitions look like when the dust settles?
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Offline mellenORL

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #471 on: May 31, 2016, 01:23:11 pm »
Has she re-thought the idea of imposing a no fly zone in Syria? I hope so. That would give cheeky ship and plane buzzing Russia a great opportunity to start potentially serious shit with the anti-ISIS coalition and directly with the U.S. over there.
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Offline The_Queen

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #472 on: May 31, 2016, 04:42:23 pm »
Libya and Honduras.
^Neither of which were started by Obama and Hillary, not were profits their motive.

There's plenty to criticize about the handling of those situations, but if they had stayed out of it bad shit would have happened anyway.

Libya was already in the middle of a civil war and it was Britain and France that started western intervention, not the US.  And I don't see what profits the US stood to gain from the situation.  Honduras I don't know as much about but it appears to have been a local power struggle that spiraled out of control.
I meant we got militarily involved in them.

Lizard, I'm really confused as to what you think we should've done regarding Libya and Honduras. Instead of having a coherent foreign policy, you simply appear to be taking a contrarian stance of opposition to anything Hillary. She says "A" you say "B," she say "B" you counter with "A." I say this because you criticize our involvement in Libya (a NATO led intervention supported by Clinton, Trump, and Bernie), but then bring up Honduras to criticize Clinton, a country in which the State department did nothing to stop a military coup and was too quick to recognize the new regime, casting the country into a military dictatorship complete with government assassinations. In essence, there was no military intervention in Honduras, which is thing you suggest we should've done regarding Libya. And yet, somehow, Clinton is still at fault. That is, unless we're talking about different situations regarding Honduras.
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Offline davedan

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #473 on: May 31, 2016, 11:19:23 pm »
Does anyone really think Hillary's foreign policy is going to be drastically different from Obama's?

Not much different. That's why I didn't vote for Obama in 2012.

Well I don't see how it's causing this much hand wringing because even with that neither Obama nor Clinton will be as bellicose as the Republicans nor will they be actively looking for wars for profit like their predecessor.
Upon analyzing bullshit I've realized my stance on Libya was flawed, and isn't a good platform to attack Hillary on.

A better example would be her position on Iran. She's stated she would use "Massive retaliation" if Iran were to attack Israel. Just saying something like that is pretty fucked up. Places like Iran or Pakistan will immediantly use that kind of sound bites to stir up fear, and considering what we've done to them  recently I wouldn't blame them.

As for an actual policy, that just 11 kinds of disturbing. Is she saying any attack on Israel would prompt massive retaliation? So if Iran kills one person we kill 50 times that? Your first reaction to an attack on Israel should be trying to negotiate with them or finding out the reasons for the attack. Use military force to prevent attacks not get revenge for them! And before you say "well America needs to respond to our enemies or risk appearing weak!" allow me to point out she wasn't provinging war a an option, she was saying she would go to war over an attack.

In addition to that she was involved in creating the 1929 sanctions (as well as a few more in congress). While the bills contained lots of restrictions on nuclear material and such (which is fine) they also contained sanctions on Irans economy, something which no doubt caused countless suffering to Iranian citizens.

You don't like Hillary, I get it. I also get that you aren't quite well informed enough or sufficiently articulate to properly express why you don't like Hillary.

That's fine I don't really give a toss. But please tell me how you think her Foreign Policy will be vastly different from the policy of the last 8 years?

One of the things that has surprised me recently is how little credit Obama has gotten for quietly making significant changes in the face of the shrill opposition of the Republican party. He reaches a treaty with Iran which will delay their having Nuclear Weapons. At the same time it lifts sanctions that have been in place since the 70s. He's reached out to Cuba. Free trade is going to be far more effective in changing Cuba and Iran than sanctions were. He did all this over the GOP suggesting that he was selling out the US. Yet for those who should be supporting him it isn't enough. And it's not as if the US isn't used to being at war anyway. How many years of the 20th century were there that the US was not at war at anyway.

Quite frankly US foreign relations are more complicated than 'looking into bullshit'. The US will always be criticised for either being too isolationist or too interventionist. There are things that Obama has done which I disagree with but they aren't really new things. Drone Strikes for instance are a problem but no more of a problem than extra-judicial killing of non-combatants outside of warzones by helicopter. The yanks blowing up people they don't like with missiles is not new. Drones just mean that there is less risk to the Americans performing the killings. Maybe that has made them more triggerhappy than they were previously. I don't know. But what I do know is that while Obama has not been perfect (he never did close Guantanamo bay) he has been a vast improvement on the years 2000-2008. This is bearing in mind that Jimmy Carter was probably your last peaceable president.

Offline rookie

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #474 on: May 31, 2016, 11:26:59 pm »
No probably about it. Since Carter, we've had Reagan (hawk), Bush (Reagan 1.5), Clinton (who had no compunction about bombing Iraq), Bush (that chicken hawk from the old Looney Tunes cartoons), and Obama (who I'll credit for being the first to understand the modern battlefield).
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Offline davedan

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #475 on: May 31, 2016, 11:30:05 pm »
And it's not like Carter's predecessors were known for their restraint in getting into armed conflicts. Obama apparently greatly admired Lincoln and to an extent modeled himself on Lincoln. You have to remember Lincoln went to war to hold together the union. Now personally I think there is no doubt Lincoln was on the right side of history but he didn't have to go to war.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 11:32:13 pm by davedan »

Offline davedan

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #476 on: May 31, 2016, 11:57:49 pm »
That's extremely British of you.

Offline The_Queen

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #477 on: June 01, 2016, 12:11:41 am »
Free trade is going to be far more effective in changing Cuba and Iran than sanctions were.

This is quite true. There is proof that free trade makes nations less likely to go to war. First, protectionist policies, tariffs, dumping, and the like can create retaliatory protectionist policies by other nations. Nation A then retaliates trade wise with Nation B, who then retaliates back, diplomacy and negotiation break down and cooler heads may not prevail. Indeed, World War One, and many other wars that preceded it, could be traced back to hostility that arose from tariffs and other trade barriers.

Second, free trade creates an intermingling of economies and a (to quote Keohane and Nye) "complex interdependence." To illustrate this, pretend that nation A relies on nation B for its cars, on nation C for its computers, one nation D for its steel, and on nation E for its wheat (and nations B,C,D, and E on one another for various goods). As a result, Nation A is not likely to bomb the shit out of any of these states as it will then have to spend more money to buy the goods/resources from another country, or settle for a lower quality good/resources. Not to mention the fact that if, say, country E got the shit bombed out of it, then it won't produce wheat. Thus, the price of wheat will go up on the international market, exacerbating negative effect to Country A (it has to buy from a more expensive nation and with decreased supply and similar demand, the price will naturally skyrocket). The end result is that it's a form of mutually assured destruction (or mutually assured inconvenience) for Nation A to bomb the shit out of one of these Nations since Nation A and its citizens will then lose access to the cheaper and higher-quality goods/resources that nation produced.

Quite frankly US foreign relations are more complicated than 'looking into bullshit'. The US will always be criticised for either being too isolationist or too interventionist.

This is also an astute observation. America is the single superpower militaristically in the world and the most powerful economy in the world. As such, when shit goes down in a random country, there are often cries among that country and the international community for us to step in and do something (either through money or through military). The Honduran situation that I brought up is a good example: America did its best to sit its happy ass out of it, and one person in Honduras literally and specifically called out Hillary for not stepping into protect the democratically elected government (before the new military-government assassinated her). On some level, I think humans have a moral obligation to step up and prevent genocide--especially after what we witnessed during the genocide-happy 20th century. But that doesn't mean we should get involved in every conflict, nor does that justify any action we take, nor does it give us a pass to Bush style nation building. International policies are a complex situation and easy, correct answers are very hard to come by.
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Offline Dakota Bob

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #478 on: June 01, 2016, 02:51:05 am »
Trump goes ballistic on judge related to the Trump University case

Hillary's email shenigans continue | Also turns out she is "uncomfortable using a PC"

Fuck this election is gonna be amazing, the 2012 American election cycle was so fucking boring. I imagine on Election Night I'll be too busy furiously masturbating myself to actually stay up and wait for the results to come in.

Also, your goof of the day:
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Offline dpareja

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Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #479 on: June 05, 2016, 06:35:23 pm »
http://tinyurl.com/prematureelection

In the realm of media malpractice:

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Earlier this week on MSNBC, host Chris Matthews, speaking to Jeff Weaver, campaign manager for Bernie Sanders, said and did something absolutely despicable. He knew it was problematic when he said it. He told us as much when he prefaced his comments with these words, "This is what I call trouble...I'm about to start here."

When a grown man tells you he is about to start trouble, believe him.

What followed, if Matthews is to be taken at his word, is clear evidence that television networks are colluding together to call the primary for Hillary Clinton before she reaches the delegates needed to claim victory. By doing so, they will absolutely suppress the vote in the final states that will be cast ballots in the Democratic primary. Even by mentioning it now, that the networks have already set the date and time they are calling the race for Hillary, what Matthews has done runs the very real risk of suppressing voter turnout. It's disgusting.

Matthews, having already made it clear that he was about to wade into dangerous territory with his comments, said “I’m told by the experts on numbers around here at NBC and elsewhere that come June 7, the day of the California primary, which your candidate, I totally understand wants to get to, and maybe has a chance of knocking off Hillary at that event, a big last hoorah, that at 8 o'clock that night, Eastern time, the networks will be prepared, including this one, to announce that Hillary Clinton has now gotten over the top, that she will have won the nomination in numbers, it's done. What will that do to voter turnout if that's 5 o'clock Pacific time, with three more hours to vote in California?"

How do they get to those numbers? By counting the votes from superdelegates who have said they'll support Clinton.

This isn't a knock on Clinton or her campaign; they have nothing to do with when the media decides to declare her the presumptive nominee. But this is media malpractice, because, since the superdelegates haven't voted, and won't until the convention, she will almost certainly not have the delegate votes necessary to become the nominee until then.
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