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Community => Religion and Philosophy => Topic started by: D Laurier on January 07, 2012, 08:56:06 pm

Title: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: D Laurier on January 07, 2012, 08:56:06 pm
I've noticed a tendency among YECs;
They start with an absurd claim.
Then when you demonstrate the absurdity of their claim, they tell that you believe something equaly absurd.
When you point out that you do not in fact believe the nonsense they attribute to you, they resort to ridicule and belittlement.
When you point out the immaturity of their actions, they respond with threats to sick their god on you.

Sometimes they declare that they were "once just like you", and then give a "testamonial" that shows how utterly un-like you they were.

They also tend to not learn from their own mistakes.

So what YEC tactics has everyone here experienced?
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist on January 07, 2012, 10:03:23 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

For a handy list of arguments favoured by YECs.

Argument from design, begging the question, circular reasoning, and ad hom. are, of course, the bread and butter of creationists.
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: JohnE on January 07, 2012, 10:09:25 pm
Each time you refute one of their arguments, they jump to another one. You can shoot down 10 "proofs" of a young earth, and they'll give you an 11th without missing a beat, like THAT's the one that'll convince you for sure.

Similarly, even if you dismantle an argument so hard even THEY admit it's wrong, they'll go on to use the exact same argument with the next person.
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: Vene on January 07, 2012, 11:16:24 pm
The Gish Gallop. Creationists love to throw out so many falsehoods you are unable to adequately address all of them. It is an excellent debate tactic (if dishonest), but horrible for finding out the truth.
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: StallChaser on January 08, 2012, 03:54:39 am
They start with the conclusion (creationism) and try to force the data to fit that conclusion, no matter how ridiculous, poorly thought out, and self-contradictory.  Anything that differers from their conclusion is either flat-out denied, handwaved away (god's intervention) or they deny the physical law they've just contradicted.  If they're caught so deeply in their own bullshit that they can't escape, there's always "we don't understand everything because we're not God" or "God works in mysterious ways."
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: rageaholic on January 08, 2012, 09:58:50 am
They think that if they can point out one flaw with evolution, it's automatically false and the Bible is automatically correct.  I remember VenomfangX doing this when he was on youtube. 
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: D Laurier on January 08, 2012, 10:16:24 am
They think that if they can point out one flaw with evolution, it's automatically false and the Bible is automatically correct.  I remember VenomfangX doing this when he was on youtube.

Ah, I remember him.

Appearantly he's back to his old tricks
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: Auri-El on January 08, 2012, 11:26:18 am
Yeah, that type of fundie thinks the world is black and white. If you can prove one thing wrong with the Bible, they think that invalidates the whole book. That leads to one, they refuse to admit any evidence against the Bible because IT MUST BE SATAN, and two, they think that the other side is the same way: one error invalidates the whole theory. Never mind that science doesn't work that way, and neither does the Bible.

Edited for mistake.
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: TheL on January 08, 2012, 12:07:31 pm
Yeah, that type of fundie thinks the world is black and white. If you can prove one thing wrong with the Bible, they think that invalidates the whole book. That leads to one, they refuse to admit any evidence against the Bible because IT MUST BE SATAN, and two, they think that the other side is the same way: one error invalidates the whole theory. Never mind that science doesn't work that way, and neither does the Bible.

Edited for mistake.

Slacktivist worded it very well here (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2010/10/15/hold-on-to-the-good/): "The all-or-nothing bill of goods she sold you when you were younger really is evil. It invites a crisis of its own making. It batters a child with a series of cruel non-sequiturs: If the earth is more than 6,000 years old, it says, then Jesus doesn't love you. If there weren't dinosaurs in Noah's flood, it says, then life is meaningless. If Isaiah was anything other than a carnival fortune-teller, whispering secrets to be decoded millennia later by the magic formula, then all hope is illusion."
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: JohnE on January 08, 2012, 12:48:51 pm
I once saw on YouTube a clip from The Atheist Experience where a caller was trying to prove creationism by disproving evolution. The host said, "For the sake of argument, let's say evolution has been disproven. It's a bunk theory. Now prove biblical creation." But the caller just when on pointing out "flaws" in evolution.

He didn't realize that you need to more than disprove evolution to prove biblical creation.
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: Random Gal on January 08, 2012, 01:54:53 pm
Creationists frequently bring up Galileo as an example of how the scientific establishment hates theories that don't agree with the orthodox view (like what evolutionists are doing to creationists now, hurp durp). When I've tried to argue that it was the Church that was attacking Galileo for disagreeing with their interpretation of Scripture, their response varies from "The Church was listening too much to bad science" to some variation on "Catholics aren't True Christians."

I've met some Christians who do admit that evolution is the best explanation for the evidence. However, many of these people phrase it as "At this point, evolution is the best explanation for the evidence." or "Well, science favors evolution now and it seems to make sense." It's like there's this assumption that eventually, scientists will discover that creationism is true.

Also, a common argument among creationists is "Since the Bible is the Word of God, it's automatically right about everything regardless of what the evidence says. Therefore, no matter how much sense evolution makes, it cannot be true if it contradicts the Bible." When I've discussed creationism with people, they take advantage of the fact that I'm a Christian and try to block out scientific evidence from the discussion and keep it entirely about what the Bible says on this basis.
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: Sigmaleph on January 08, 2012, 03:03:41 pm
The Gish Gallop. Creationists love to throw out so many falsehoods you are unable to adequately address all of them. It is an excellent debate tactic (if dishonest), but horrible for finding out the truth.
Funny example of that: Creationist joins forum and complains about evolution. I invite creationist to take it to the appropriate section and make his case. Creationist composes a long post of tired creationist clichés, including such classics as "The theory of evolution covers everything from star formation to abiogenesis to 'microevolution'" and "Evolution is synonymous with the materialistic worldview"

I do the typical point-by-point rebuttal of every one of his claims (I had a lot of free time), point out that one can discuss the Theory of Evolution in biology without talking about everything that could possibly have the word evolution appended to it, and suggest we narrow down the scope of the argument.

Creationist replies, says that he doesn't like the point-by-point style because it makes for long threads, then spews forth some more tired bullshit and refuses to narrow down the argument.

I counter his arguments yet again, this time in topically-organized section style, and remind him that if he dislikes long threads, then maybe we should just talk about biology and leave stellar formation and philosophy outside the thread.

Creationist points out another poster is still using point-by-point style, and uses that as an excuse not to reply while complaining again about long threads. Creationist vanishes and never shows up again.
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: D Laurier on January 08, 2012, 03:11:10 pm
The Gish Gallop. Creationists love to throw out so many falsehoods you are unable to adequately address all of them. It is an excellent debate tactic (if dishonest), but horrible for finding out the truth.
Funny example of that: Creationist joins forum and complains about evolution. I invite creationist to take it to the appropriate section and make his case. Creationist composes a long post of tired creationist clichés, including such classics as "The theory of evolution covers everything from star formation to abiogenesis to 'microevolution'" and "Evolution is synonymous with the materialistic worldview"

I do the typical point-by-point rebuttal of every one of his claims (I had a lot of free time), point out that one can discuss the Theory of Evolution in biology without talking about everything that could possibly have the word evolution appended to it, and suggest we narrow down the scope of the argument.

Creationist replies, says that he doesn't like the point-by-point style because it makes for long threads, then spews forth some more tired bullshit and refuses to narrow down the argument.

I counter his arguments yet again, this time in topically-organized section style, and remind him that if he dislikes long threads, then maybe we should just talk about biology and leave stellar formation and philosophy outside the thread.

Creationist points out another poster is still using point-by-point style, and uses that as an excuse not to reply while complaining again about long threads. Creationist vanishes and never shows up again.
Sounds about right.
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: rookie on January 08, 2012, 09:46:14 pm
A very long time ago, I just gave up trying to do anything with YECs. They are immune to logic and reason. I finally got tired of the squishy sound of my head hitting the same brick wall. Now, I find it much more satisfying to laugh at them. And not quietly behind their backs either. The more arguments I hear, the louder and longer the laughter gets.
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: Lithp on January 08, 2012, 09:53:05 pm
I was kind of hoping VenomFangX had an aneuryism.
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist on January 08, 2012, 10:16:31 pm
The Gish Gallop. Creationists love to throw out so many falsehoods you are unable to adequately address all of them. It is an excellent debate tactic (if dishonest), but horrible for finding out the truth.

Ah, yes. Particularly when they throw out the straw man versions of the big bang, the formation of various bodies in the universe, abiogenesis, etc.
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: Vene on January 08, 2012, 10:38:36 pm
That reminds me of another one. If a creationist is talking to a biology, they will ask a physics question. If it's to a physicist, a geology question. And who knows what they'll ask a geologist. They rarely focus on their field of expertise.
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: Ranger_Joe on January 08, 2012, 10:40:51 pm
I really don't understand how people can maintain this level of thinking. Even the idea that the earth is only 6000 years old is just....hilarious. I can't even consider the idea..There have been so many reports, so much evidence..everything showing that our earth is billions of years old. Our universe is MASSIVE.

It's just intellectually dishonest to even pursue the idea. The fact that there are so many people who truly do believe this way makes me just stare in disbelief. It honestly makes me a bit sad and disappointed of my species as a whole.

They use so many different tactics, and all of them are equally hilarious. When you laugh and shrug it off, they just get smug and self righteous. So many people put so much effort into refuting these idiots...it just feeds their desire to continue the research. They don't deserve to be acknowledged in the scientific community because they don't have scientific information.

If there is one thing I absolutely cannot stand, it's willful ignorance and stupidity. YECs take the idea of the God of the Bible and then find information to support their ideas. True researchers will examine the data and then compile it and show exactly what it said, as opposed to filling the gaps in their backward ass theories. :P
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: StallChaser on January 09, 2012, 04:58:16 am
They think that if they can point out one flaw with evolution, it's automatically false and the Bible is automatically correct.  I remember VenomfangX doing this when he was on youtube.

Ah, I remember him.

Appearantly he's back to his old tricks

He's still around?  I thought he was gone (from youtube, at least) after making all those false DMCA claims.
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: Star Cluster on January 09, 2012, 09:08:58 am
Arguing with these people is useless.  You'll never convince them they are wrong since they have the Buybull on their side.

I found out recently that one of my best friends, who I knew was Christian, was also a YEC.  We were discussing the new lineup of TV shows from last fall and I mentioned Terra Nova.  He was unfamiliar with it so I was giving him a quick synopsis.  When I finished, he looked at me and asked "You don't believe that shit do you?"  I asked, "Believe what?"  He replied, "That the earth is that old."  When I said I did he said, "Well, I sure don't.  I don't think it's but 6000 years old, like it says in the Bible."

I was stunned and quite surprised he believed this way because here's the kicker;  this man is president of a company in an oil related business.  I just left it alone because I knew there was no sense in arguing about it.  But then, I've often wondered about the depth of his real faith.  In case you haven't noticed, the first quote above is verbatim. While he doesn't "curse like a sailor,' he doesn't mind throwing a few around from time to time.  He also likes to drink (he and I have tied some on together more than a few times,) and he loves making references to sex and how sexy some women are (he is married to a gorgeous woman.)  And while I know to which church he is a member, I don't know if he goes on a regular basis.  I really get the feeling he doesn't.

It is behavior like his that really makes me question a lot of people's commitment to religion.  While they talk a good faith, they sure don't put it into a noticeable practice.
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist on January 09, 2012, 10:36:44 am
That reminds me of another one. If a creationist is talking to a biology, they will ask a physics question. If it's to a physicist, a geology question. And who knows what they'll ask a geologist. They rarely focus on their field of expertise.

Or when they demand that every atheist be an expert in physics, biology, theology, and everything else under the sun, declaring evolution (which is, of course, synonymous with atheism in YEC-land) null and void if one single atheist is unable to answer a particular question dealing with a highly esoteric element of any of these fields.
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: Lithp on January 09, 2012, 03:15:56 pm
You're also wrong if you have any deficiency of knowledge about religion.

They get to decide what counts for that.
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: Old Viking on January 09, 2012, 04:26:45 pm
Just smile and say, "You may be right."  Then turn the conversation to something a Young Earther can understand.  Coloring books is a good place to start.
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: TheL on January 09, 2012, 09:30:23 pm
I really don't understand how people can maintain this level of thinking. Even the idea that the earth is only 6000 years old is just....hilarious. I can't even consider the idea..There have been so many reports, so much evidence..everything showing that our earth is billions of years old. Our universe is MASSIVE.

It's just intellectually dishonest to even pursue the idea. The fact that there are so many people who truly do believe this way makes me just stare in disbelief. It honestly makes me a bit sad and disappointed of my species as a whole.

I bought into it when I was 10.  See, Dad figured I wouldn't just automatically believe everything my teachers told me (despite there being no reason as yet for me to ever think teachers were wrong about things they mentioned in school), so he heard me talking about how sad it was that I couldn't like dinosaurs anymore because the earth was 6000 years old and therefore my dinosaur books had to be lying.  He asked me about the fossils.  I thought for a minute and said they must be fakes.  (Remember, the concept of fictional books was familiar to me, but the concept of teachers misinforming students was not.)  Dad then tried to talk to me about how I should be more openminded, but I was too young to really understand what he was trying to get at.

As a college freshman, I finally realized creationism was bunk.  If you've never read any of AiG's materials, I recommend that you do, just to see how slick they are.  Basically, if you have a high school education and no exposure to actual scientific evidence, it all sounds perfectly reasonable.

I am still very angry at that elementary school.
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: Auri-El on January 09, 2012, 09:52:30 pm
Encountered a new one today.

I'm in my last semester of college and I'm taking a course called "geology and dinosaurs." I've been looking forward to it, I love rocks and fossils and things. Except the first class was today, and I looked at the book (which Dr C wrote) that's supposedly about dinosaurs, and the book says things like "Your teachers told you evolution was a fact. That's wishful thinking. "Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools..."," and, concerning the "change" in the age of the Earth as it went from religious leaders' guesses to scientific theories, "This rapid upgrade of the Earth's age makes you wonder if it got caught in some strange time-warp." What's more, in the preface he claims that he "tried to cover subjects such as evolution fairly and objectively."
I have to admit, this is an entirely new experience for me. I knew there were plenty of fundies in my area, but to find one teaching science at the best junior college in the state was something I never expected. And the thing is, most people don't know enough about science to realize that he's being an ass.

Sadly, I have no way out of the class. I need a science course to graduate, and my only other option would be to go another semester which is not really an option.

*quietly seethes in the back of the classroom for 15 weeks*
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: Lithp on January 09, 2012, 10:15:36 pm
If it's "the best junior college in the state," can't you just point out to the administration that he's teaching total bullshit?
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: Auri-El on January 09, 2012, 10:23:43 pm
Well, I'm not really going to keep quiet. We've only had one period, and he didn't say anything definitely wrong. But since I'm stuck with him, I'm going to speak up as much as I can without affecting my grade. And there's always teacher evaluations at the end. But as for making a formal complaint with the higher-ups, I'm not sure how it works or if it would be worth the bother, and I'm generally shy and don't like making a fuss. I just can't abide idiots.
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: TenfoldMaquette on January 09, 2012, 10:58:48 pm
Well, I'm not really going to keep quiet. We've only had one period, and he didn't say anything definitely wrong. But since I'm stuck with him, I'm going to speak up as much as I can without affecting my grade. And there's always teacher evaluations at the end. But as for making a formal complaint with the higher-ups, I'm not sure how it works or if it would be worth the bother, and I'm generally shy and don't like making a fuss. I just can't abide idiots.

If you don't like to abide idiots, then don't. Talk to someone in the administration about his bullshit; if they have academic standards they'll put the kibosh on him pretty quick. And if they don't, well then at least you know where they stand and you can have as much fun as you can wring out of that class.
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: Vene on January 09, 2012, 11:46:17 pm
Well, I'm not really going to keep quiet. We've only had one period, and he didn't say anything definitely wrong. But since I'm stuck with him, I'm going to speak up as much as I can without affecting my grade. And there's always teacher evaluations at the end. But as for making a formal complaint with the higher-ups, I'm not sure how it works or if it would be worth the bother, and I'm generally shy and don't like making a fuss. I just can't abide idiots.

If you don't like to abide idiots, then don't. Talk to someone in the administration about his bullshit; if they have academic standards they'll put the kibosh on him pretty quick. And if they don't, well then at least you know where they stand and you can have as much fun as you can wring out of that class.
Pretty much this. That professor is doing a disservice to you and everybody else taking the class. Also, evaluations go to the professor, not the department chair* so it wouldn't really accomplish much. It shouldn't take more than an email for a phone call to get a complaint process started. It could help to state it as you being concerned rather than an outright attack on him (which could be seen as a student bitching for a better grade).

Also, it cannot have any impact on your grade as long as you do the material your professor assigns. If it does affect your grade, document it and present it to the department chair.

*At the least, this is how the colleges and universities I've been to have handled it
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: Random Gal on January 09, 2012, 11:49:27 pm
If all else fails, contact the local chapter of the ACLU or a similar organization.
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: Lithp on January 10, 2012, 12:04:21 am
Best advice seems to be an anonymous tip. And quote/screenshot suspect portions of the book. That is probably your best evidence.
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: Auri-El on January 10, 2012, 07:25:24 am
Well, I'm going to talk to one of my other professors about it. I don't know what will happen if I make a complaint, and like I said, there are no other science classes available and I have to have a science class this semester. I appreciate your advice.
Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: D Laurier on January 10, 2012, 05:36:34 pm
Of course there are the internet YECs who use  "run and hide behind the mods" as a tactic to silence anyone who makes them look foolish, or who holds them accountable for their antics.
And YEC mods are only too eager to co-operate.

Title: Re: YEC (Young Earth Creationist) tactics
Post by: TheL on January 10, 2012, 07:49:00 pm
If you don't like to abide idiots, then don't. Talk to someone in the administration about his bullshit; if they have academic standards they'll put the kibosh on him pretty quick. And if they don't, well then at least you know where they stand and you can have as much fun as you can wring out of that class.
Pretty much this. That professor is doing a disservice to you and everybody else taking the class. Also, evaluations go to the professor, not the department chair* so it wouldn't really accomplish much. It shouldn't take more than an email for a phone call to get a complaint process started. It could help to state it as you being concerned rather than an outright attack on him (which could be seen as a student bitching for a better grade).

Also, it cannot have any impact on your grade as long as you do the material your professor assigns. If it does affect your grade, document it and present it to the department chair.

*At the least, this is how the colleges and universities I've been to have handled it

At my school, we get our evaluations from the assistant dean, so there is a chance that Kali could make some serious waves with that teacher evaluation.  Depends on the school.