Reactions to an anti-bullying facebook thingamajig

[Dan]

To the crowd that thinks bullying can be stopped by fighting back: what happens when the bullies outnumber their victim(s)?

[ironbite]

I'd also like to point out that girls bullying girls is usually either ignored by these campaigns entirely or just considered less of a problem.

Because girl on girl is hot.

[shykid]

Ignoring the fact that "bullies won't bully you if you bully them" treads perilously close to victim-blaming, this is the kind of attitude that brings us things like Columbine.

Also, if "just fighting back" were that easy for those who are bullied, then bullying wouldn't fucking exist. I mean, fucking seriously, do these people honestly believe that the victims of bullying are so gotdamn stupid that they would never, ever consider the notion of "just fighting back" if you didn't suggest it (what, with your being ever the wise one by virtue of your physical strength and social privilege alone because, as we all know, might makes right)? How arrogant and presumptuous can you get? Faking the courage, confidence, self-esteem, and sheer physical strength necessary to defend yourself is difficult bordering on impossible (as I well know from personal experience), and either way, it doesn't address the actual problems:

• The underlying issues that lead to the victim having a lack of those things, which cannot be provided by the power of their fists alone, save for the "sheer physical strength" part. And, that technicality aside, things like courage, confidence, self-esteem should be acquired well before physical strength, because the formula for a bully is essentially:
  
  Bully = ±(Physical Strength − Social Privilege) − (Courage + Confidence + Self-Esteem)
  
  
• The environment and/or culture that creates bullies and provides them with potential victims.

/rant.

[rageaholic]

On another forum I'm on, there was a thread on bullying.  One member who was bullied a lot said he got in trouble for pulling out a toy gun to scare away the bullies.  One person said that was an out of proportion response even though (a), he wouldn't have really shot the guy, and (b), he was too physically weak to fight back.  What did Mr genious suggest for those who couldn't fight back?

"Grow stronger"

Sadly, this attitude is too common. 

[Osama bin Bambi]

In my school, if someone hits you and then you hit back to defend yourself, the bully is suspended for "fighting" but you are suspended for "escalating the conflict." You see, the dumbfucks who think they know the most realistic solution for all kids in all situations are too lazy to distinguish between disproportionate retribution and just kicking the bully in the crotch long enough for you to run away.

[Kit Walker]

Ignoring the fact that "bullies won't bully you if you bully them" treads perilously close to victim-blaming, this is the kind of attitude that brings us things like Columbine.

No it doesn't. Klebold and Harris were bullied, yes, but they were also assholes who wanted to emulate the likes of Tim McVeigh. I think that the disturbed nature was the chicken in this case, the bullying the egg.

In my school, if someone hits you and then you hit back to defend yourself, the bully is suspended for "fighting" but you are suspended for "escalating the conflict." You see, the dumbfucks who think they know the most realistic solution for all kids in all situations are too lazy to distinguish between disproportionate retribution and just kicking the bully in the crotch long enough for you to run away.

My high school had the same policy, but a teacher I was friends with explained it in a way that made some sense: Teachers can not know who started any given altercation unless they witness it. There is always a chance that the person who threw the first punch was subjected to a litany of verbal abuse first, that witnesses are simply lying to protect their friend who was involved, that the fight in school is an outgrowth of a personal conflict that began at home, that the teacher who wrote up the incident is playing favorites, etc. Punishing both parties involved in altercation was the quickest, cleanest, and even (he argued) fairest way of dealing with the situation while disrupting the school's core goal of educating students. He also admitted that it wasn't perfect and that it was more about creating a disincentive to fighting than preventing bullying.

Needless to say, when I was 16 and therefore the smartest person in the world, I thought he was full of shit. An incident in my senior year softened me on the issue a little. Involves three seniors (We'll call them Matt, Ethan, and Carly, because those were their names) in the lunchroom. Carly used to date Matt, now she's dating Ethan, all three of them have the same lunch period. One day, Matt walks up to where Ethan and Carly are eating together, says hi, and asks Carly if she remembers the time she let him give her a facial (not in the cosmetic sense). Ethan promptly stands up and socks Matt right in the mouth, defending his lady's honor. Imagine you're the school administrator with these boys in your office - how do you handle it? There are rules against sexual harassment, general harassment, and fighting. Technically, Ethan started the fight - he threw the first punch and Matt acted to defend himself. However, Ethan was only reacting to Matt's clear bullying - that question was clearly intended to humiliate both Carly and her new boyfriend and it is reasonable to predict that fisticuffs would ensue. Of course, Matt's claiming he never said what Carly and Ethan say he did...who do you believe? The only witnesses are people who sit with Ethan and Carly at lunch, who may have personal issues with Carly's ex-boyfriend. Let's imagine that Matt alleges Ethan was previously taunting him about his sex life with Carly and his friends can back him up on that. Who started it then? How many people are going to pull out of class to give their statement? How much of your time are you going to devote to this one incident? Why not just suspend both of them for fighting, warning Ethan that reporting harassment to school officials is the better way to handle the situation and warning Matt that if they get another sexual harassment complaint against him that he's going to have a much longer suspension?

That's hardly representative of every fight scenario or every bullying incident, but fuck me if it didn't make me see where administrators were coming from with zero tolerance.

[tempus]

It doesn't help when those who fight back usually end up in worse trouble than the bullies.

When I was in school, someone I knew who was a repeated, long-term bullying victim well took the advice in the first post, and decided to confront his tormentor with violence.

The teacher decided to punish him by having two students hold him while the kid he "attacked" got to do exactly the same thing to him, in front of the rest of the class, and was then suspended for a week for fighting.  To be sure, the teacher wasn't supposed to do that, but administration turned a blind eye to it, always, and nothing happened. Nor was he the only one who this happened to. 

On other occasions when he tried to report it, he was punished for "tattling," then the bullies were told, and he was also punished for "being a trouble magnet" and "provocation."  He was once again suspended, and later, when he returned to school, his tormentors sought him out for more retribution.  Once again, administration turned a blind eye.  Again, he wasn't the only one this happened to, either.  When he asked why, the teacher merely told him, "This is the way things work.  Grow up," and subsequently ignored him.

Sometimes standing up for yourself means you just get bludgeoned down even harder. 

[Art Vandelay]

Sometimes standing up for yourself means you just get bludgeoned down even harder. 

The solution there would be to take them down outside of school hours. Follow them home after school and when the opportunity presents itself, break their kneecaps and leave them to crawl the rest of the way home.

[Cloud3514]

One of the kids I went to school with (we'll call him D) was actually killed by his bullies when a fight (that he was provoked into for an amount of time that no one knows except the bully) lead to him having complications with his heart condition. The bullies would always challenge him to fights, which he would turn down until the one time he finally got fed up with it and accepted their challenge. They met up, it was him against 5 or 6 guys, one was "fighting" (really, it was just D standing there taking taunts) while the others circled them, one of whom was recording this on his phone. When the bully finally punched him in the chest, it caused him to have a heart attack and collapse. At this point, the bully just kicked him while he was down a couple times. As soon as he realized what happened, instead of doing the right thing and CALLING THE FUCKING POLICE, they panicked and ran. A few hours later, D's body was found.

The school's reaction was a single announcement about what happened the next day and then sweep the incident under the damn rug (though admittedly some good came out of it when the amount of bullying went down). The bully got six months of house arrest and two years of probation. The local news was also happy to run a quote where he said that he looked forward to playing soccer the next year when he got back into school (and as a journalism student, I find this part to be disgusting).

This is bad enough on its own, but here's another incident from the same year that was far less embarrassing to the school:

Skip forward several months. When one of the school jocks (we'll call him G) killed himself in a drunk driving incident (drinking at a party, driving 30 over the speed limit in a 35 zone, running off the road and flipping the car, all without wearing a seat belt), the school's reaction was to spend a fucking week mourning one of their star soccer players, hailing him as a hero. The school excused students that went to his funeral (which they didn't do for D's funeral). Some of his friends got the school's backing to print off window stickers that said "In memory of G, buckle up." I wouldn't have a problem with this if not for the fact that wearing his seat belt wasn't the issue, but the school can't let their "hero" be known to be an underage drinker! Oh, but they'll sweep a case of bullying so bad that someone fucking died under the rug and do what they can to pretend it never happened.

Need I also add that this school thought (and likely still thinks) that No Child Left Behind was a great idea and the fact that they laid off three math teachers to HIRE A FOOTBALL COACH?

[Witchyjoshy]

@Kit Walker

It may have a basis in reason, but in practice, it's done little more than punish victims of bullying for doing anything other than sitting and taking it.

And in some cases, they get punished anyways because the bullies can come up with any lie and they're believed for whatever reason.  I remember reading one person's story of how he was bullied stepping off of the bus.  And by bullied, I mean they got him to the ground and kicked him.  When he went to school next, he was suspended.  Why?  The bullies told the principal that he shoved one of them.

One case of it going as planned does not excuse hundreds of cases where it punishes the victim of bullying for being bullied.

So, excuse me, but it's still a vile thing that needs to be abolished and replaced with something better.

[StallChaser]

@Kit Walker

It may have a basis in reason, but in practice, it's done little more than punish victims of bullying for doing anything other than sitting and taking it.

And in some cases, they get punished anyways because the bullies can come up with any lie and they're believed for whatever reason.  I remember reading one person's story of how he was bullied stepping off of the bus.  And by bullied, I mean they got him to the ground and kicked him.  When he went to school next, he was suspended.  Why?  The bullies told the principal that he shoved one of them.

One case of it going as planned does not excuse hundreds of cases where it punishes the victim of bullying for being bullied.

So, excuse me, but it's still a vile thing that needs to be abolished and replaced with something better.

This, and a history of bullying should be obvious, unless the teachers have their heads completely up their asses.  I can understand the neutrality issue, but it's a total cop out, and gives the faculty an excuse not to do anything until there's violence.

[Kit Walker]

And in some cases, they get punished anyways because the bullies can come up with any lie and they're believed for whatever reason.  I remember reading one person's story of how he was bullied stepping off of the bus.  And by bullied, I mean they got him to the ground and kicked him.  When he went to school next, he was suspended.  Why?  The bullies told the principal that he shoved one of them

What should the principal have done? A student comes to the administration, says "hey, this guy picked a fight with me and my friends saw it". The friends back him up. There are no witnesses. There is no evidence beyond the circumstantial either way (even if the picked on kid had bruises, there's absolutely no way of discerning where they came from).  In this case, he chose the story he was told first (which would turn out great if the roles were reversed) and probably chose wrong. Under zero tolerance, detentions for everybody. There isn't a perfect solution to this, not from where I'm sitting.

And yes, there have been numerous instances where zero tolerance policies have been misused, abused, or involved zero reasoning. I don't dispute that. But there are close to 99,000 public schools in this country, each (roughly) independently controlled, so I would be inclined to give the majority of them the benefit of the doubt.

This, and a history of bullying should be obvious, unless the teachers have their heads completely up their asses.  I can understand the neutrality issue, but it's a total cop out, and gives the faculty an excuse not to do anything until there's violence.

In elementary school? Yes, yes it should be obvious. In high school? My high school had 2,200 students in it. Teachers dealt with around 100-150 students a day. With the sole exception of their one hour planning period, their breaks and free time throughout the day were equal to that of the students. There were five VPs, one principal, and one cop. I definitely agree that there are cruel teachers, indifferent administrators, and everything in-between, the fact is that it can be hard to see whole pictures when you're dealing with hundreds of unconnected puzzle pieces.

I do not think that zero tolerance is the best solution, the fairest solution, or any kind of "great" solution. I think that it is the best a lot of schools can do, based on the size of their student bodies and the lack of available staff resources. Attacking the policy doesn't do any good if there's no way to implement a proper replacement.

[Witchyjoshy]

Except he shouldn't have believed the first story just because it was the first story.  That's stupid.

I don't know what he should have done, but his decision was flat-out wrong.

The fact of the matter is, the current system is not working and should be dismantled and replaced.  The harm it is causing is more than any benefit it brings.  This means it must be done away with.

Furthermore, it is not my responsibility to come up with a replacement system.  That doesn't mean, however, that I cannot point out that a broken system is broken.

Just like someone can point out that a power line has been severed without having to be the one to climb up and fix it.

[Sylvana]

The fact of the matter is, the current system is not working and should be dismantled and replaced.  The harm it is causing is more than any benefit it brings.  This means it must be done away with.

Furthermore, it is not my responsibility to come up with a replacement system.  That doesn't mean, however, that I cannot point out that a broken system is broken.

The problem is that while the system may be broken, unless someone can actually come up with a real alternative, this is the best system we have at this point in time. You are right that it is broken, but currently the only other alternative is to remove teacher intervention completely which would be even worse.

Bullying is a complex issue. Most of the time there is no evidence and only the conflicting words of the people involved. Any other witnesses are most likely biased one way or the other. Not to mention that seeking out help from adults is strongly discouraged for victims because a bully will often exact harsher measures as punishment for doing so, and that is even when the adult takes the victims side.

Victims of bullying often cannot stand up for themselves, and they also cannot be protected 100% of the time. Bullies will find a time and place where they will be able to do the deed without repercussions. Further, the victim turning to an adult will encourage bullying behavior because the bullies notice that the victim is either unwilling or incapable of defending themselves which makes them more vulnerable. Then comes the whole can of worms that is all the different kinds of bullying from isolationism and verbal taunting. Not all can be addressed, and not all victims have the same thresholds as everyone else.

Honestly, I don't know what the solution is. I don't even think there really is one. If I remember though one teacher tried a revolutionary method of teaching that focused on tolerance for each students differences. It involved some pretty radical changes in teaching style but apparently had some interesting results. I wish I could remember the story properly. If I remember correctly it was triggered by one kid being bullied for the braids in his hair or something.

[Eniliad]

As for the Facebook thing... I don't give a shit about the campaign or the "counter campaign" or whatever it is. It's Facebook, and like every other Facebook campaign, it changes not a damn thing. As for bullying problems in general, the system is frankly fucked. It probably doesn't help that there's no standard for it, so each school kinda just wings it. It's gotten me into quite a bit of trouble. I recall a time when some fuckhead... we were in band class, on a day when we were all just watching a movie instead of playing. We'd just done an event the previous night so we had the day off. Anyway, this jagoff nearby started calling me shit, and I reported to the teacher... what, three times? Fourth time I had enough of his bullshit and punched the motherfucker in the face. That started a brief fight in which nobody got hurt. The teacher let it go for about a minute, then broke it up and suspended the bastard. Well, principal apparently got complaints from his mom, and he was a total pussy (seriously, his face resembled a vagina), so he ended the idiot's suspension early and suspended me for a day. When my mom heard I got suspended, and why... she bought me ice cream and let me play video games all day. Then she had a few choice words for the school, which fell on deaf ears because the school system in the area kinda sucked. But what can you do?