FSTDT Forums
Community => Religion and Philosophy => Topic started by: MadCatTLX on March 05, 2012, 09:30:40 pm
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Not sure if this was posted on the old forums or not. If so here it is again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viV1LsQPMeg
To paraphrase a quote I heard but don't remember who said, "if your a only a good person because of possible consequences in an afterlife your not a good person". (Anyone know the source?)
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”
― Marcus Aurelius
Edit: added second quote.
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Slight problem with that philosophy: How the hell is a kid stealing a candy bar deserving of being burned alive? That's just messed up.
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Slight problem with that philosophy: How the hell is a kid stealing a candy bar deserving of being burned alive? That's just messed up.
Well, it depends on what kind of hell you ascribe to.
Although I'm guessing that this person believes in the fire and torment hell.
Oh my *#$%!
Lol.
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Edited to add second quote.
@Kali- Exactly
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God creates humans.
God instills human nature in humans.
God gets mad when humans obey the very nature he gave them.
God blames humans and sends them to hell.
Yeah, that seems fair.
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Are...are Mario and Luigi going to Hell?...Guys?... :'(
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Are...are Mario and Luigi going to Hell?...Guys?... :'(
I wouldn't be too worried. Just look at all the lava they've dealt with over the years. Hell'll be a walk in the part.
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"So stop living for yourself, turn from your sins, and come to Jesus."
Isn't living your entire life so that you can escape torment and live in paradise living for yourself?
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God creates humans.
God instills human nature in humans.
God gets mad when humans obey the very nature he gave them.
God blames humans and sends them to hell.
Yeah, that seems fair.
God be trollin'.
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Yeah, This shit is so disgusting it actualy makes my teeth hurt.
They want to make people feel worthless and inferior, so they will be more easily manipulated.
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It's the "sin in your heart" part that really gets me. One is tempted. One chooses not to act on that temptation. You've still sinned! So much for free will.
I will not be help responsible for every stray thought that enters my head. I will be responsible for encouraging those thoughts and acting upon them.
I also wonder, why does that only apply to adultery? I've seen/heard people that have gotten me so angry, the thought of shooting them in the face has crossed my mind. Therefore, I have already murdered in my heart!
Gah, this is why I'm studying philosophy and moderate Buddhism. The end goal is to work out aggressive and debilitating thoughts, not give up and start apologizing to Gawd.
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God creates humans.
God instills human nature in humans.
God gets mad when humans obey the very nature he gave them.
God blames humans and sends them to hell.
Yeah, that seems fair.
That's why we have Lucifer:
(http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/blogs/unreasonablefaith/files/2011/12/5.jpg)
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God creates humans.
God instills human nature in humans.
God gets mad when humans obey the very nature he gave them.
God blames humans and sends them to hell.
Yeah, that seems fair.
That's why we have Lucifer:
(http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/blogs/unreasonablefaith/files/2011/12/5.jpg)
He's hot and suave.
I actually tried out Luciferianism for a brief period of time, but when I realized I wasn't even making the effort to find material on it, I decided to let it go.
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Am I the only one who thinks that what Jesus did in the bible wasn't a sacrifice? I mean he was tortured and put to death but then just went up to heaven to be with his sky daddy? Yeah sounds like a huuuge sacrifice. Wouldn't a bigger better sacrifice have been him saying I as the son of God will be put to death and be taken down to hell as a payment to Satan so the rest of the people on earth will be spared from that torment after they die? That to me sounds like a sacrifice.
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If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
Then that kind of worries me on infamy.
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Am I the only one who thinks that what Jesus did in the bible wasn't a sacrifice? I mean he was tortured and put to death but then just went up to heaven to be with his sky daddy? Yeah sounds like a huuuge sacrifice. Wouldn't a bigger better sacrifice have been him saying I as the son of God will be put to death and be taken down to hell as a payment to Satan so the rest of the people on earth will be spared from that torment after they die? That to me sounds like a sacrifice.
Well, he was in Hell for three days, according to what I was taught. Those three days "destroyed the gates of Hell" and now allowed the act of reconciliation and service to allow one entry into heaven, without having to be a saint.
...Meh. He's Gawd. Three days of torment? Come on! ;)
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Yeah, This shit is so disgusting it actualy makes my teeth hurt.
They want to make people feel worthless and inferior, so they will be more easily manipulated.
Yeah. Are you human and make mistakes? Well you're a horrible person and deserves to be endlessly burned alive!
This kind of theology makes me rage so hard. I want to kick Ray Comforts smug, arrogant ass.
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Anyone kind of freak out that you have to be mindraped by jesus in order to go to heaven?
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Anyone kind of freak out that you have to be mindraped by jesus in order to go to heaven?
So much for free will, eh?
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Am I the only one who thinks that what Jesus did in the bible wasn't a sacrifice? I mean he was tortured and put to death but then just went up to heaven to be with his sky daddy? Yeah sounds like a huuuge sacrifice. Wouldn't a bigger better sacrifice have been him saying I as the son of God will be put to death and be taken down to hell as a payment to Satan so the rest of the people on earth will be spared from that torment after they die? That to me sounds like a sacrifice.
Odin tore out his own eye, and made sure it would never heal, as his sacrifice to save us all from the eternal winter of Ragnarok.
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The Odinic pantheon: far more badass than the Christian pantheon. Their heaven also kicks more ass...who wouldn't want to spend the time until Ragnarok feasting, drinking, fucking, and getting into bar fights with Thor?
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The Odinic pantheon: far more badass than the Christian pantheon. Their heaven also kicks more ass...who wouldn't want to spend the time until Ragnarok feasting, drinking, fucking, and getting into bar fights with Thor?
Me. Thor's an ass and dumber then a box of Skyfires.
Ironbite-now Shiva...that's who you wanna hang out with for all eternity.
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The Odinic pantheon: far more badass than the Christian pantheon. Their heaven also kicks more ass...who wouldn't want to spend the time until Ragnarok feasting, drinking, fucking, and getting into bar fights with Thor?
Me. Thor's an ass and dumber then a box of Skyfires.
Ironbite-now Shiva...that's who you wanna hang out with for all eternity.
Shiva is an interesting god. His wife is essentially a manifestation of himself, and she has many manifestation of herself. In some older traditions, Shiva is both male and female. And here's one of his wife:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Kali_lithograph.jpg)
And the Æsirs tend to be jackasses in comparison to the Vanir. Also the old Germanic folks could chose to go to Hel in Nilfheim if they wanted too.
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The Odinic pantheon: far more badass than the Christian pantheon. Their heaven also kicks more ass...who wouldn't want to spend the time until Ragnarok feasting, drinking, fucking, and getting into bar fights with Thor?
Me. Thor's an ass and dumber then a box of Skyfires.
Ironbite-now Shiva...that's who you wanna hang out with for all eternity.
Thor was a bore, but I wouldn't call him an ass. At least not with the mythology I've read. /offtopic
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The Odinic pantheon: far more badass than the Christian pantheon. Their heaven also kicks more ass...who wouldn't want to spend the time until Ragnarok feasting, drinking, fucking, and getting into bar fights with Thor?
On the contrary, that sounds really shitty. Like being stuck in a bar full of frustrated boguns.
I say get rid of the fighting and drinking and replace it with gaming and lightning fast internet. That would be a truly kick ass heaven.
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Isn't the commandment thou shalt not bear false witness, not you shall not lie per se? They don't seem like exactly the same thing to me anyway. Bearing false witness is more something like perjury.
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On that note, "taking the lord's name in vain" applied more to swearing to their god without meaning it; "I swear to God, I didn't know she was your girlfriend", that sort of thing.
Also, am I the only one who expected the video was a parody? The whole time I was waiting for the protagonist to point out how absurd it is to judge someone based on their thoughts which they have no real control over, or that the whole damn thing is a fucking joke. An extremely unfunny, extremely harmful joke.
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Isn't the commandment thou shalt not bear false witness, not you shall not lie per se? They don't seem like exactly the same thing to me anyway. Bearing false witness is more something like perjury.
I thought it depended on the translation.
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Am I the only one who thinks that what Jesus did in the bible wasn't a sacrifice? I mean he was tortured and put to death but then just went up to heaven to be with his sky daddy? Yeah sounds like a huuuge sacrifice. Wouldn't a bigger better sacrifice have been him saying I as the son of God will be put to death and be taken down to hell as a payment to Satan so the rest of the people on earth will be spared from that torment after they die? That to me sounds like a sacrifice.
Well, he was in Hell for three days, according to what I was taught. Those three days "destroyed the gates of Hell" and now allowed the act of reconciliation and service to allow one entry into heaven, without having to be a saint.
...Meh. He's Gawd. Three days of torment? Come on! ;)
I was taught that those three days were his entire punishment for absorbing all the sin in the world. If he was only punished for three days for the sins of every person past and present, then shouldn't humans only be in hell for, like, two seconds?
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Am I the only one who thinks that what Jesus did in the bible wasn't a sacrifice? I mean he was tortured and put to death but then just went up to heaven to be with his sky daddy? Yeah sounds like a huuuge sacrifice. Wouldn't a bigger better sacrifice have been him saying I as the son of God will be put to death and be taken down to hell as a payment to Satan so the rest of the people on earth will be spared from that torment after they die? That to me sounds like a sacrifice.
I think the real sacrifice is the Judas paradox. Jesus had to come to Earth and died for our sins, suffer for a few hours, and die. Were it not for Judas, Jesus would never have died for atonement of our sins. Jesus suffers physically for a few hours, Judas is in hell for almost 2000 years. In spite of this, we worship Jesus for his suffering in the role of our atonement while ignoring the greater suffering on the part of Judas (completely ignoring the fact that the entire series of events was pre-determined and Judas was nothing but a pawn in God's plan for Jesus' crucifixion).
Of course, assuming the Christian interpretation of history is correct.
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Am I the only one who thinks that what Jesus did in the bible wasn't a sacrifice? I mean he was tortured and put to death but then just went up to heaven to be with his sky daddy? Yeah sounds like a huuuge sacrifice. Wouldn't a bigger better sacrifice have been him saying I as the son of God will be put to death and be taken down to hell as a payment to Satan so the rest of the people on earth will be spared from that torment after they die? That to me sounds like a sacrifice.
I think the real sacrifice is the Judas paradox. Jesus had to come to Earth and died for our sins, suffer for a few hours, and die. Were it not for Judas, Jesus would never have died for atonement of our sins. Jesus suffers physically for a few hours, Judas is in hell for almost 2000 years. In spite of this, we worship Jesus for his suffering in the role of our atonement while ignoring the greater suffering on the part of Judas (completely ignoring the fact that the entire series of events was pre-determined and Judas was nothing but a pawn in God's plan for Jesus' crucifixion).
Of course, assuming the Christian interpretation of history is correct.
I always felt bad for Judas. Seriously, always.
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Am I the only one who thinks that what Jesus did in the bible wasn't a sacrifice? I mean he was tortured and put to death but then just went up to heaven to be with his sky daddy? Yeah sounds like a huuuge sacrifice. Wouldn't a bigger better sacrifice have been him saying I as the son of God will be put to death and be taken down to hell as a payment to Satan so the rest of the people on earth will be spared from that torment after they die? That to me sounds like a sacrifice.
I think the real sacrifice is the Judas paradox. Jesus had to come to Earth and died for our sins, suffer for a few hours, and die. Were it not for Judas, Jesus would never have died for atonement of our sins. Jesus suffers physically for a few hours, Judas is in hell for almost 2000 years. In spite of this, we worship Jesus for his suffering in the role of our atonement while ignoring the greater suffering on the part of Judas (completely ignoring the fact that the entire series of events was pre-determined and Judas was nothing but a pawn in God's plan for Jesus' crucifixion).
If Ghandi and Hitler were at the same party in 1937, and I'm a racist who wants to kill Ghandi, but accidentally kills Hitler preventing the holocaust, does that make me a good person since I saved a bunch of lives?
All I'm saying is that we should factor intention when people do their actions.
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Am I the only one who thinks that what Jesus did in the bible wasn't a sacrifice? I mean he was tortured and put to death but then just went up to heaven to be with his sky daddy? Yeah sounds like a huuuge sacrifice. Wouldn't a bigger better sacrifice have been him saying I as the son of God will be put to death and be taken down to hell as a payment to Satan so the rest of the people on earth will be spared from that torment after they die? That to me sounds like a sacrifice.
I think the real sacrifice is the Judas paradox. Jesus had to come to Earth and died for our sins, suffer for a few hours, and die. Were it not for Judas, Jesus would never have died for atonement of our sins. Jesus suffers physically for a few hours, Judas is in hell for almost 2000 years. In spite of this, we worship Jesus for his suffering in the role of our atonement while ignoring the greater suffering on the part of Judas (completely ignoring the fact that the entire series of events was pre-determined and Judas was nothing but a pawn in God's plan for Jesus' crucifixion).
If Ghandi and Hitler were at the same party in 1937, and I'm a racist who wants to kill Ghandi, but accidentally kills Hitler preventing the holocaust, does that make me a good person since I saved a bunch of lives?
All I'm saying is that we should factor intention when people do their actions.
Depending on translation and what Bible one reads, Judas was simply trying to provoke Jesus into action or doing as requested.
Or, in my favorite interpretation, singing out his frustrations that he doesn't know how to love him!
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This is just epic in its faggotry
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Am I the only one who thinks that what Jesus did in the bible wasn't a sacrifice? I mean he was tortured and put to death but then just went up to heaven to be with his sky daddy? Yeah sounds like a huuuge sacrifice. Wouldn't a bigger better sacrifice have been him saying I as the son of God will be put to death and be taken down to hell as a payment to Satan so the rest of the people on earth will be spared from that torment after they die? That to me sounds like a sacrifice.
I think the real sacrifice is the Judas paradox. Jesus had to come to Earth and died for our sins, suffer for a few hours, and die. Were it not for Judas, Jesus would never have died for atonement of our sins. Jesus suffers physically for a few hours, Judas is in hell for almost 2000 years. In spite of this, we worship Jesus for his suffering in the role of our atonement while ignoring the greater suffering on the part of Judas (completely ignoring the fact that the entire series of events was pre-determined and Judas was nothing but a pawn in God's plan for Jesus' crucifixion).
If Ghandi and Hitler were at the same party in 1937, and I'm a racist who wants to kill Ghandi, but accidentally kills Hitler preventing the holocaust, does that make me a good person since I saved a bunch of lives?
All I'm saying is that we should factor intention when people do their actions.
Depending on translation and what Bible one reads, Judas was simply trying to provoke Jesus into action or doing as requested.
Or, in my favorite interpretation, singing out his frustrations that he doesn't know how to love him!
Every interpretation I have read basically has it that Judas was as loyal and great as all the other disciples, but after being singled out by Jesus at the feast he is possessed by god (not a demon or satan or something god does this, just like how the pharo of egypt wanted to release the jews during moses time but god hardened his heart so that more suffering could befall egypt.) to go and betray Jesus to the temple priests.
So from what I can see he was not coerced he was downright mind controlled into doing his part in the sacrifice of Jesus yet always comes out in religious classes as the bad guy because he betrayed Jesus.
Of course this all assumes the story told in the bible has any kind of actual validity. What I just mentioned I got when I was bored and reading the bible properly during a bible study where the others were arguing in circles again. Its amazing how much reading the bible properly gives one an insight into how full of crap Christianity really is.
Seriously though, Jesus was gay. The regular references to 'the disciple that Jesus loved' give it away. Not to mention how the other disciples speak to 'the disciple that Jesus loved' because they think he knows something that Jesus told him in private that he hadn't shared with them.
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Am I the only one who thinks that what Jesus did in the bible wasn't a sacrifice? I mean he was tortured and put to death but then just went up to heaven to be with his sky daddy? Yeah sounds like a huuuge sacrifice. Wouldn't a bigger better sacrifice have been him saying I as the son of God will be put to death and be taken down to hell as a payment to Satan so the rest of the people on earth will be spared from that torment after they die? That to me sounds like a sacrifice.
I think the real sacrifice is the Judas paradox. Jesus had to come to Earth and died for our sins, suffer for a few hours, and die. Were it not for Judas, Jesus would never have died for atonement of our sins. Jesus suffers physically for a few hours, Judas is in hell for almost 2000 years. In spite of this, we worship Jesus for his suffering in the role of our atonement while ignoring the greater suffering on the part of Judas (completely ignoring the fact that the entire series of events was pre-determined and Judas was nothing but a pawn in God's plan for Jesus' crucifixion).
If Ghandi and Hitler were at the same party in 1937, and I'm a racist who wants to kill Ghandi, but accidentally kills Hitler preventing the holocaust, does that make me a good person since I saved a bunch of lives?
All I'm saying is that we should factor intention when people do their actions.
Depending on translation and what Bible one reads, Judas was simply trying to provoke Jesus into action or doing as requested.
Or, in my favorite interpretation, singing out his frustrations that he doesn't know how to love him!
Every interpretation I have read basically has it that Judas was as loyal and great as all the other disciples, but after being singled out by Jesus at the feast he is possessed by god (not a demon or satan or something god does this, just like how the pharo of egypt wanted to release the jews during moses time but god hardened his heart so that more suffering could befall egypt.) to go and betray Jesus to the temple priests.
So from what I can see he was not coerced he was downright mind controlled into doing his part in the sacrifice of Jesus yet always comes out in religious classes as the bad guy because he betrayed Jesus.
Of course this all assumes the story told in the bible has any kind of actual validity. What I just mentioned I got when I was bored and reading the bible properly during a bible study where the others were arguing in circles again. Its amazing how much reading the bible properly gives one an insight into how full of crap Christianity really is.
Seriously though, Jesus was gay. The regular references to 'the disciple that Jesus loved' give it away. Not to mention how the other disciples speak to 'the disciple that Jesus loved' because they think he knows something that Jesus told him in private that he hadn't shared with them.
"Love" does not necessarily mean you want to fuck someone or marry them. Not that I'd care either way, just saying that I love my friends a lot, but not romantically.
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And you can love people romantically without wanting to have sex with them.
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And you can love people romantically without wanting to have sex with them.
Which I never contradicted. So we can agree that simply using the english word "love" is not sufficient means for declaring a person's preference for long term relationships.
Many languages have different words for "love" to signify the different levels. English is sadly lacking.
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Depending on translation and what Bible one reads, Judas was simply trying to provoke Jesus into action or doing as requested.
I have never really seen that outside of Last Temptation of Christ or that Gospel of Judas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas) thing that made news a few years back. Maybe also a few other comments from non-religious folks, too. But nothing that was supposed to be treated as canon.
I know I heard from at least one Catholic source, can’t recall where exactly, that we shouldn’t assume Judas was hell-bound, because only God gets the final say. But this source stopped short of making Judas out to be sympathetic in any way.
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Depending on translation and what Bible one reads, Judas was simply trying to provoke Jesus into action or doing as requested.
I have never really seen that outside of Last Temptation of Christ or that Gospel of Judas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas) thing that made news a few years back. Maybe also a few other comments from non-religious folks, too. But nothing that was supposed to be treated as canon.
I know I heard from at least one Catholic source, can’t recall where exactly, that we shouldn’t assume Judas was hell-bound, because only God gets the final say. But this source stopped short of making Judas out to be sympathetic in any way.
I think I read once that Judas is in Hell, but unlike everyone else trapped down there, he gets vacation off.
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I think I read once that Judas is in Hell, but unlike everyone else trapped down there, he gets vacation off.
Well, that would be thoughtful.
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I think I read once that Judas is in Hell, but unlike everyone else trapped down there, he gets vacation off.
Well, that would be thoughtful.
I based my knowledge on talks with a Bible study group in college. *shrug*
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I don't know why. But I would totally fuck Mr Nice Guy
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Actually, my understanding of Judas was that he was trying to save Jesus from himself.
He saw Jesus going far and was worried for his life, so he more or less tried to report him when the things he was saying were just imprisonment worthy rather than death worthy.
He didn't realize that the Pharisees were going to have him executed anyways, and when he realized what he had done, that's when he went insane with grief.
A god that would send that man to hell is a dick and unworthy of worship.
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"So stop living for yourself, turn from your sins, and come to Jesus."
Isn't living your entire life so that you can escape torment and live in paradise living for yourself?
And in some cases it's so obvious that it makes me want to vomit. Seriously though, I think the attitude can be found on a Bell curve where the extremely humble folks are on one end and the condescending selfish fundies can be found on the other.
Am I the only one who thinks that what Jesus did in the bible wasn't a sacrifice? I mean he was tortured and put to death but then just went up to heaven to be with his sky daddy? Yeah sounds like a huuuge sacrifice. Wouldn't a bigger better sacrifice have been him saying I as the son of God will be put to death and be taken down to hell as a payment to Satan so the rest of the people on earth will be spared from that torment after they die? That to me sounds like a sacrifice.
I think the real sacrifice is the Judas paradox. Jesus had to come to Earth and died for our sins, suffer for a few hours, and die. Were it not for Judas, Jesus would never have died for atonement of our sins. Jesus suffers physically for a few hours, Judas is in hell for almost 2000 years. In spite of this, we worship Jesus for his suffering in the role of our atonement while ignoring the greater suffering on the part of Judas (completely ignoring the fact that the entire series of events was pre-determined and Judas was nothing but a pawn in God's plan for Jesus' crucifixion).
Of course, assuming the Christian interpretation of history is correct.
Many are now making a tidy explanation that he endured "the second death" as a payment for the redeeming those who accepted Christ so they wouldn't have to (and there are apparently Scriptures that back this up). I had heard an explanation once that Jesus spent 3 days in Hell rescuing the wrongly condemned.
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How to tell if you're damned according to Living Waters: a flowchart:
Are you alive? --------> yes ---------------------------------------> no
^ | |
| | |
| V V
| You're Hosed. Bullshit. Can't answer if you're dead, dingus.
| | ^==========================================<
I think it pretty well goes something like this.
| <
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I think I read once that Judas is in Hell, but unlike everyone else trapped down there, he gets vacation off.
Well, that would be thoughtful.
I based my knowledge on talks with a Bible study group in college. *shrug*
Shoulda known that crap was from a librul edjucashun!
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I think I read once that Judas is in Hell, but unlike everyone else trapped down there, he gets vacation off.
Well, that would be thoughtful.
I based my knowledge on talks with a Bible study group in college. *shrug*
Shoulda known that crap was from a librul edjucashun!
You know how those public schools work against religion - allowing multiple religous clubs, having a church on campus, allowing public Bible study and street preachers... Man, do they hate religion. Especially that religious studies department!
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Honestly, while a bit on the preachy side, there isn't anything in that video that is really very controversial. It was a rather accurate depiction of basic Christian philosophy. One of the things to remember is that, at least in the example of a kid stealing a candy bar being a "thief" deserving of eternal damnation, standard Christian doctrine teaches that there is really only one sin; disobeying God. In that example, the child is condemned not because they stole the candy bar, but rather because they disobeyed God when he specifically said not to steal. I know it's kind of a technicality, but that's the way the reasoning goes.
But in the end, all religion is an attempt to put an undefinable and inconceivable concept into limited human terms. No matter how you spin it, any "god" defined in human terms in the context of the reality we live in is going to end up coming across as either a total douchebag or an unbelievable hypocrite, so the religious are faced with a choice of trying to insist that this is not the case, or admitting that, in the end, they are really just guessing.
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How to tell if you're damned according to Living Waters: a flowchart:
Are you alive? --------> yes ---------------------------------------> no
^ | |
| | |
| V V
| You're Hosed. Bullshit. Can't answer if you're dead, dingus.
| | ^==========================================<
I think it pretty well goes something like this.
| <
What if I'm a ghost who's possessing somebody?
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Bullshit. Ghosts can only possess inanimate objects.
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shows what you fucking know.
Ironbite-never ever challenge me on bullshit science. I WILL FUCKING OWN YOUR VERY SOUL AND WEAR IT LIKE A SCARF!
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Won't last, I'm like a boa constrictor .
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You both owe me a new keyboard. I sprayed Mountain Dew laughing.
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Do robots count as inanimate objects, for purposes of possession?
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If it can move, it is animate.