Author Topic: Communist Vietnam May Beat the United States to Legalizing Gay Marriage  (Read 6092 times)

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Art Vandelay

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Re: Communist Vietnam May Beat the United States to Legalizing Gay Marriage
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2012, 03:36:24 am »
*Wall-O-text of only marginal relevance*
Be that as it may, the fact remains that the Vietnamese government is not communist in any of its actual practises, especially economic. As such, calling them communists does nothing to describe what they are in reality, regardless of what they or anyone else says.

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Communist Vietnam May Beat the United States to Legalizing Gay Marriage
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2012, 04:17:23 am »
A) They're not communist.

Their government is run by the Communist Party, therefore they are communist. Notwithstanding the inequality and market-oriented economic policies. Saying that makes them not communist is a no true scottsman fallacy.

Personally I like to think that words have meanings. Otherwise, why have a language?
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

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Offline TheReasonator

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Re: Communist Vietnam May Beat the United States to Legalizing Gay Marriage
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2012, 08:28:23 am »
Popular consensus isn't a good way to decide if something is what it is called. By your logic, evolution isn't what science has shown, but what people think it is.

Seriously, you just said, "Even though this country does almost everything the opposite way of Communism, it still is Communist because people say so".

If you want to get very, very technical all "communism" is is a series of sounds produced by the human mouth and vocal chords.

The point being that first and foremost words are used by human beings to communicate so we can't just treat the way people use words as irrelevant. People need to stop trying to reclaim the word "communism". Sorry it's been tainted by being historically associated with the Soviet Union and is not ever going to mean what it used to mean. Most people I run into defending "communism"(as they put it) and saying the Soviet Union, China, Vietnam, Cuba,... aren't/weren't really communist could describe their political views better within the modern day social context as "social democratic" or "democratic socialist", and none of the meaning pertaining to what they are trying to say about their political views would be lost.

It's the overall concept that is supposed to be expressed by the word that is important though. That people get confused about the little details (such as people who say things like "if evolution is true why are there still monkeys) does not change what the word means. It's the overall way a word is conceptualized that matters.

Vietnam is "communist" because the ruling "Communist Party" still justifies its actions (to its people and I assume, to itself since typically elites are just as brainwashed as the masses) based on the ideal that it is a vanguard party leading its people towards the goal of "communism"(a hypothetical stateless and classless society) through the "dictatorship of the proletariat" which has come to mean a vanguard that thinks it is ruling in the interests of the proletariat whether it works out that way or not. Even the market reforms are justified with plenty of mental gymnastics as a step on the way to "communism".

The other branch of Marxism which was christened "social democracy" could be said to be a continuation more of what Marx meant by "dictatorship of the proletariat", although it has largely abandoned the pretense of ever making it to what Marx termed as the "communist" stage, although personally I do think it will happen just not in the way Marx or anyone else envisioned. When technology reaches the point where human labor becomes unnecessary the rich then has nothing to lose from abandoning its control over the means of production, and couldn't justify itself at that point even if it wanted to because nobody is working anymore in order to "earn" the right to have that control. We would set up a system probably through the internet where people would just put in what ever requests they wanted and then the worldwide computer system would order its robots to get to work building it for us as long as it wasn't too over-the-top (couldn't ask for your own personal fleet of spaceships, at least not at the production capacity we would have at first).

For now and until we can abolish human labor we need capitalism, but not the crazy, unbridled form the right preaches. The government should devote itself to pursuing policies that bring us closer to abolishing the need for human labor.

Offline Mechtaur

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Re: Communist Vietnam May Beat the United States to Legalizing Gay Marriage
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2012, 12:34:46 pm »
Popular consensus isn't a good way to decide if something is what it is called. By your logic, evolution isn't what science has shown, but what people think it is.

Seriously, you just said, "Even though this country does almost everything the opposite way of Communism, it still is Communist because people say so".

Wharrgarble repeating what you orginally said.

Again, I will repeat that saying that Vietnam is a Communist country because the ruling party is the Communist Party, despite it having absolutely jack shit in common with actual Communism is just stupid.

You cannot just go about saying that a word means something other than what it actually means and expect people who actually pay attention in economics classes to just roll over.

Then again, I'm not expecting you to actually pay attention to this post since you showed you'll just repeat yourself, only with a larger post than before.

Offline TheReasonator

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Re: Communist Vietnam May Beat the United States to Legalizing Gay Marriage
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2012, 12:49:13 pm »
Popular consensus isn't a good way to decide if something is what it is called. By your logic, evolution isn't what science has shown, but what people think it is.

Seriously, you just said, "Even though this country does almost everything the opposite way of Communism, it still is Communist because people say so".

Wharrgarble repeating what you orginally said.

Again, I will repeat that saying that Vietnam is a Communist country because the ruling party is the Communist Party, despite it having absolutely jack shit in common with actual Communism is just stupid.

You cannot just go about saying that a word means something other than what it actually means and expect people who actually pay attention in economics classes to just roll over.

Then again, I'm not expecting you to actually pay attention to this post since you showed you'll just repeat yourself, only with a larger post than before.

But that is actual "Communism" according to what the term means now. If you go out into the world and try to sell "Communism" and mean something other than a dictatorial one-party state that has legal supremacy over all property (which Vietnam still does, "market socialism" is largely accomplished by private businesses paying the state rent to use property that it officially owns) people will not understand you and you will get a lot of weird looks, and you will make absolutely zero progress trying to sell your point.

Offline Mechtaur

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Re: Communist Vietnam May Beat the United States to Legalizing Gay Marriage
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2012, 01:32:07 pm »
Popular consensus isn't a good way to decide if something is what it is called. By your logic, evolution isn't what science has shown, but what people think it is.

Seriously, you just said, "Even though this country does almost everything the opposite way of Communism, it still is Communist because people say so".

Wharrgarble repeating what you orginally said.

Again, I will repeat that saying that Vietnam is a Communist country because the ruling party is the Communist Party, despite it having absolutely jack shit in common with actual Communism is just stupid.

You cannot just go about saying that a word means something other than what it actually means and expect people who actually pay attention in economics classes to just roll over.

Then again, I'm not expecting you to actually pay attention to this post since you showed you'll just repeat yourself, only with a larger post than before.

But that is actual "Communism" according to what the term means now. If you go out into the world and try to sell "Communism" and mean something other than a dictatorial one-party state that has legal supremacy over all property (which Vietnam still does, "market socialism" is largely accomplished by private businesses paying the state rent to use property that it officially owns) people will not understand you and you will get a lot of weird looks, and you will make absolutely zero progress trying to sell your point.

Are you really incapable of reading my posts or something? Did you not see that part about how most people don't even really know what Communism means?

Again, your logic postulates that the theory of evolution doesn't mean what science has shown, but what the majority of people think.

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Communist Vietnam May Beat the United States to Legalizing Gay Marriage
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2012, 07:07:27 pm »
The point being that first and foremost words are used by human beings to communicate so we can't just treat the way people use words as irrelevant.

Do words have meanings? If so, some people use words 'wrong' and other people use words 'right'.

Who gets to decide what communism is? People who believe in it. It's hardly fair for people who do not believe an ideology to create a strawman and redefine what their political opponents believe. If most of the people who believe in an ideology change slightly what they believe, the ideology changes.

Quote
"social democratic" or "democratic socialist",

Neither of which are communism. Defining communism isn't hard- it's not like fascism.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
-FDR

Offline TheReasonator

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Re: Communist Vietnam May Beat the United States to Legalizing Gay Marriage
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2012, 08:30:24 pm »
Popular consensus isn't a good way to decide if something is what it is called. By your logic, evolution isn't what science has shown, but what people think it is.

Seriously, you just said, "Even though this country does almost everything the opposite way of Communism, it still is Communist because people say so".

Wharrgarble repeating what you orginally said.

Again, I will repeat that saying that Vietnam is a Communist country because the ruling party is the Communist Party, despite it having absolutely jack shit in common with actual Communism is just stupid.

You cannot just go about saying that a word means something other than what it actually means and expect people who actually pay attention in economics classes to just roll over.

Then again, I'm not expecting you to actually pay attention to this post since you showed you'll just repeat yourself, only with a larger post than before.

But that is actual "Communism" according to what the term means now. If you go out into the world and try to sell "Communism" and mean something other than a dictatorial one-party state that has legal supremacy over all property (which Vietnam still does, "market socialism" is largely accomplished by private businesses paying the state rent to use property that it officially owns) people will not understand you and you will get a lot of weird looks, and you will make absolutely zero progress trying to sell your point.

Are you really incapable of reading my posts or something? Did you not see that part about how most people don't even really know what Communism means?

Again, your logic postulates that the theory of evolution doesn't mean what science has shown, but what the majority of people think.

Apples and oranges. "Evolution" relates to physical phenomenon and "Communism" relates to social phenomenon. When you talk about your beliefs pertaining to social or political things typically you want to convince others. If you are using words in a radically different way than they are then it won't work.

Offline TheReasonator

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Re: Communist Vietnam May Beat the United States to Legalizing Gay Marriage
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2012, 08:31:53 pm »
The point being that first and foremost words are used by human beings to communicate so we can't just treat the way people use words as irrelevant.

Do words have meanings? If so, some people use words 'wrong' and other people use words 'right'.

Who gets to decide what communism is? People who believe in it. It's hardly fair for people who do not believe an ideology to create a strawman and redefine what their political opponents believe. If most of the people who believe in an ideology change slightly what they believe, the ideology changes.

Quote
"social democratic" or "democratic socialist",

Neither of which are communism. Defining communism isn't hard- it's not like fascism.

Most people who believe in it, who label themselves "communist" are people in communist countries so then by your own logic the people of China, Vietnam, etc... get to define it.

Offline largeham

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Re: Communist Vietnam May Beat the United States to Legalizing Gay Marriage
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2012, 08:47:18 pm »
This is mostly a semantics debate. I really can't be fussed answering everything (and others have), but social democracy is not Marxist theory. Marx proposed a revolution, not change through parliament.

In the Manifesto the terms socialism and communism are used interchangeably, it was under and after Lenin that the former became the period during a revolution/the dictatorship of the proletariat and the latter referred to a classless, stateless society. The terms socialist and communist were quite different, the former referring to social democrats and the latter to revolutionaries. I'm not sure when social democrats broke away from the socialist label.

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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Communist Vietnam May Beat the United States to Legalizing Gay Marriage
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2012, 08:55:31 pm »
The point being that first and foremost words are used by human beings to communicate so we can't just treat the way people use words as irrelevant.

Do words have meanings? If so, some people use words 'wrong' and other people use words 'right'.

Who gets to decide what communism is? People who believe in it. It's hardly fair for people who do not believe an ideology to create a strawman and redefine what their political opponents believe. If most of the people who believe in an ideology change slightly what they believe, the ideology changes.

Quote
"social democratic" or "democratic socialist",

Neither of which are communism. Defining communism isn't hard- it's not like fascism.

Most people who believe in it, who label themselves "communist" are people in communist countries so then by your own logic the people of China, Vietnam, etc... get to define it.

And what do they say communism is? Obviously they're Maoists, so they aren't defining Marxism-Leninism. But how do they define Maoism? Largely traditionally. Revolution, inherent contradictions, and all the rest.

By their definition, China's government is not communist.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 09:04:44 pm by Lt. Fred »
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
-FDR

Offline TheReasonator

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Re: Communist Vietnam May Beat the United States to Legalizing Gay Marriage
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2012, 12:28:56 am »
The point being that first and foremost words are used by human beings to communicate so we can't just treat the way people use words as irrelevant.

Do words have meanings? If so, some people use words 'wrong' and other people use words 'right'.

Who gets to decide what communism is? People who believe in it. It's hardly fair for people who do not believe an ideology to create a strawman and redefine what their political opponents believe. If most of the people who believe in an ideology change slightly what they believe, the ideology changes.

Quote
"social democratic" or "democratic socialist",

Neither of which are communism. Defining communism isn't hard- it's not like fascism.

Most people who believe in it, who label themselves "communist" are people in communist countries so then by your own logic the people of China, Vietnam, etc... get to define it.

And what do they say communism is? Obviously they're Maoists, so they aren't defining Marxism-Leninism. But how do they define Maoism? Largely traditionally. Revolution, inherent contradictions, and all the rest.

By their definition, China's government is not communist.

The common denominator is the one party system promising that it is leading the way towards the "communist" stage.

Offline Mechtaur

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Re: Communist Vietnam May Beat the United States to Legalizing Gay Marriage
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2012, 12:32:56 am »
Popular consensus isn't a good way to decide if something is what it is called. By your logic, evolution isn't what science has shown, but what people think it is.

Seriously, you just said, "Even though this country does almost everything the opposite way of Communism, it still is Communist because people say so".

Wharrgarble repeating what you orginally said.

Again, I will repeat that saying that Vietnam is a Communist country because the ruling party is the Communist Party, despite it having absolutely jack shit in common with actual Communism is just stupid.

You cannot just go about saying that a word means something other than what it actually means and expect people who actually pay attention in economics classes to just roll over.

Then again, I'm not expecting you to actually pay attention to this post since you showed you'll just repeat yourself, only with a larger post than before.

But that is actual "Communism" according to what the term means now. If you go out into the world and try to sell "Communism" and mean something other than a dictatorial one-party state that has legal supremacy over all property (which Vietnam still does, "market socialism" is largely accomplished by private businesses paying the state rent to use property that it officially owns) people will not understand you and you will get a lot of weird looks, and you will make absolutely zero progress trying to sell your point.

Are you really incapable of reading my posts or something? Did you not see that part about how most people don't even really know what Communism means?

Again, your logic postulates that the theory of evolution doesn't mean what science has shown, but what the majority of people think.

Apples and oranges. "Evolution" relates to physical phenomenon and "Communism" relates to social phenomenon. When you talk about your beliefs pertaining to social or political things typically you want to convince others. If you are using words in a radically different way than they are then it won't work.

lol no. You're saying that words only mean what large amounts of people say they mean, their actual definitions be damned. If anything, you're the one trying to convince us with radical redefinitions.

If you insist on using the term Communist, as coined by Marx, I'm not in the mood to continue with this since you can't seem to understand how it works.

If you want to continue, but finding the term that actually fits their economics scheme, I might be game.

Out of curiosity, why did the subject of Communism even have to be drug up in this topic? Why couldn't you just say "Vietnam to legalize gay marriage"?

Offline TheReasonator

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Re: Communist Vietnam May Beat the United States to Legalizing Gay Marriage
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2012, 01:34:00 am »
Out of curiosity, why did the subject of Communism even have to be drug up in this topic? Why couldn't you just say "Vietnam to legalize gay marriage"?

My point was that Communist Vietnam (communist or so-called communist which ever you want to call it-God I feel ridiculous having to be this specific to get my point across-and no by "God" I don't mean I literally believe in God I'm an atheist in case it wasn't clear I wasn't being literal) is legalizing gay marriage when communist/'communist' countries aren't exactly famous for being keen on advancing human rights, so it makes us look like a joke for them to have it legal but not us.

You guys are real sticklers over words. When I communicate I try to at least read between the lines and catch the gist of what's being said instead of starting an argument over the OP's semantics.

Offline Mechtaur

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Re: Communist Vietnam May Beat the United States to Legalizing Gay Marriage
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2012, 01:40:29 am »
Out of curiosity, why did the subject of Communism even have to be drug up in this topic? Why couldn't you just say "Vietnam to legalize gay marriage"?

My point was that Communist Vietnam (communist or so-called communist which ever you want to call it-God I feel ridiculous having to be this specific to get my point across-and no by "God" I don't mean I literally believe in God I'm an atheist in case it wasn't clear I wasn't being literal) is legalizing gay marriage when communist/'communist' countries aren't exactly famous for being keen on advancing human rights, so it makes us look like a joke for them to have it legal but not us.

You guys are real sticklers over words. When I communicate I try to at least read between the lines and catch the gist of what's being said instead of starting an argument over the OP's semantics.

This whole argument wouldn't have existed if you had simply said "You're right, they aren't Communist, they are closer to Maoists. My bad, let us get back on the subject". Hell, I only jumped in to correct it when I felt you started to insist. This forum is a bit... Tight on exactness at times, depending on the subject and how much someone likes it.

I also got the whole "God, this was stupid" point. I can be a bit dense but I'm not that bad. ;)

But, back on the original subject. Good on ol' 'Nam.