Author Topic: Dangerous Idea: Democracy is Overrated  (Read 15748 times)

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Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: Dangerous Idea: Democracy is Overrated
« Reply #45 on: August 27, 2013, 11:02:35 pm »
I'm kinda curious as to what sort of test that upper class people would have a harder time passing than lower class people?

You know, the reverse of the typical expectations.
Daily living expenses, time/multi-job management.
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Offline davedan

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Re: Dangerous Idea: Democracy is Overrated
« Reply #46 on: August 27, 2013, 11:19:50 pm »
I'm kinda curious as to what sort of test that upper class people would have a harder time passing than lower class people?

You know, the reverse of the typical expectations.

Simply have more difficult tests depending on your tax bracket, for every beneficiary of a trust distribution or person with capital gains/losses over a certain amount.

Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: Dangerous Idea: Democracy is Overrated
« Reply #47 on: August 27, 2013, 11:30:09 pm »
I'm kinda curious as to what sort of test that upper class people would have a harder time passing than lower class people?

You know, the reverse of the typical expectations.
Daily living expenses, time/multi-job management.

An empathy test.

/semi-joking
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Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: Dangerous Idea: Democracy is Overrated
« Reply #48 on: August 28, 2013, 12:54:15 am »
I'm kinda curious as to what sort of test that upper class people would have a harder time passing than lower class people?

You know, the reverse of the typical expectations.
Daily living expenses, time/multi-job management.

An empathy test.

/semi-joking
How about daily living expenses, time/multi-job management, basic morality, literacy to a middle school level (I don't care who that excludes, I don't feel okay with people being able to vote while unable to read better than a 10 year old), some knowledge of the opinions of the two main parties, basic USA history (including knowing we are officially NOT a Christian nation), and a make or break question: Does the Soviet Union still exist?
What I used to think was me is just a fading memory. I looked him right in the eye and said "Goodbye".
 - Trent Reznor, Down In It

Together as one, against all others.
- Marilyn Manson, Running To The Edge of The World

Humanity does learn from history,
sadly, they're rarely the ones in power.

Quote from: Ben Kuchera
Life is too damned short for the concept of “guilty” pleasures to have any meaning.

Offline Sylvana

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Re: Dangerous Idea: Democracy is Overrated
« Reply #49 on: August 28, 2013, 05:46:52 am »
They wouldn't take the form of literacy tests, nowadays. It'd be, say, civics tests, where people who went to private schools and expensive universities would have a significant advantage. People who can afford an education tend to do better in academic settings, if only because they are more used to them. So you'd end up with wealthier being overrepresented in the allowed voter population. Democracy as-is is already heavily biased towards people with money, there's no need to make it more so.

And that's in the ideal case where everything runs properly and the tests are administered fairly and so on. In practice, it's going to add yet another layer of bureaucracy that can be manipulated in favour of the desired result.

The thing is, a civics test that people have trouble passing would be a good thing.
Yes, people with a better education and who are wealthier are more likely to pass the test, but at the same time, they are also people who are more likely to actually know things like the difference between capitalism and communism and how they apply to government styles.
Right now the wealthy have undue influence in politics because they can easily manipulate the majority of low information voters. An electorate that actually is knowledgeable about the issues being voted on would be significantly less likely to be manipulated and would be able to formulate their own opinions more readily.

Lastly, I am strongly in favor of international intervention with regards to elections. A committee of different foreign nations should become the independent electoral commission, handling voter registration and vote counting. It is far too easy for current local governments and organizations to influence voting patterns and rules.

Short version is that I strongly do not trust democracy. Government positions should require aptitude tests to make sure that the person applying for the position actually understands their job and is capable of doing the job. After they pass the test can you then perhaps have people in the field vote to get the final candidate. Far too often people who have no idea about anything are given government positions and other times people unrelated to an issue and without any real understanding of an issue vote. Limiting options to ensure relevancy is a good thing.

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Dangerous Idea: Democracy is Overrated
« Reply #50 on: August 28, 2013, 07:13:26 am »
You also have to make sure that everyone gets the same test. The White Australia Policy went on for years on the basis of English tests. If you were of an undesirable subcutaneous melanin concentration you got harder tests. English being the language that it is, it is basically possible to make a question that no one will get right.

On the basis of a dictation test in whatever language we goddamn please. You're German? How about doing a dictation test in Ancient Greek?

Shut up Darkie and recite the first 4 lines of Gilgamesh in the original Sumerian.

And you, recite the entirety of Beowulf in Old English! And then the entire Canterbury Tales in Middle English!

(What? You didn't finish? Why didn't you finish? Chaucer never finishing it is no excuse for you not finishing it! Application denied!)

A dude (Egon Kisch) was once asked to do his dictation test in a bunch of different languages- Ancient Greek and such. He was an academic linguist, so he could do it. So they asked him to do it again. Again, he could do (say) Latin. And again. And again. And again. Finally they nailed him; Celtic.

He still won in court.
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Offline whitewater

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Re: Dangerous Idea: Democracy is Overrated
« Reply #51 on: August 28, 2013, 07:15:32 am »
In the current U.S. context, democracy cannot be improved by an eligibility test. It would only eliminate minority voters, and would be patently unfair.One person, one vote is, after all, the essence of democracy. People have a right to be stupid and uneducated, and still have opinions and be allowed to express them by voting in elections.

First, eliminate the so-called PACs, financed by special interests, from running TV/radio ads.
Second, establish a truth in advertising law, prohibiting the broadcast of untrue or misleading political ads, and give it some teeth.
Third, severely limit the lobbyists.
Fourth, enact legislation barring formerly elected representatives from becoming lobbyists.

One of the things that has occurred with the advent of corporate media, and the concentration of news sources is that there are few voices in the media speaking bluntly about our democracy. The only media person I have observed that attempts to educate the public about our growing oligarchy is BIll Moyers, tucked away on PBS on Sunday afternoons. The public is uniniformed because our media corporations are more concerned with ratings and maintaining the status quo, than keeping the voters truly informed. The job of the fourth estate is just that, and it is failing badly.

Voter apathy, not uniformed voters are the biggest problem. Barely half of the electorate even bother to vote, and for those under 25, it drops significantly lower than that. This apathy is tied in to the entire corporate media issue of not actually informing the public about politics, focusing instead on the personalities and conflicts, rather than discussing the real issues at hand. I have never seen a CNN or FOX, ABC, NBC or CBS discussion about the growing oligarchy that infects U.S. democracy.


Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: Dangerous Idea: Democracy is Overrated
« Reply #52 on: August 28, 2013, 09:25:30 am »
Actually, these kind of tests would not just eliminate minorities. While it is true that it would likely disqualify some, there would be an equal number of white trash eliminated. It would remove both sides' uneducated voters, leaving us with voters who are informed on the issues, and more likely to vote based off logic and reason, rather than fear. This would also force politicians to be smarter with how they do things, knowing that the voter base is made of people who know better. Both parties get away with being horrible because they know that their base will never turn on them. Minorities will never vote for the racist cockwagons, and white trash will never vote for those hippie gay Nazi Commies.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 09:27:11 am by PosthumanHeresy »
What I used to think was me is just a fading memory. I looked him right in the eye and said "Goodbye".
 - Trent Reznor, Down In It

Together as one, against all others.
- Marilyn Manson, Running To The Edge of The World

Humanity does learn from history,
sadly, they're rarely the ones in power.

Quote from: Ben Kuchera
Life is too damned short for the concept of “guilty” pleasures to have any meaning.

Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Dangerous Idea: Democracy is Overrated
« Reply #53 on: August 28, 2013, 10:17:04 am »
I'm kinda curious as to what sort of test that upper class people would have a harder time passing than lower class people?

You know, the reverse of the typical expectations.
1)list three things you can add to make KD more interesting?
2)what is the cooking time of raman?
3)multiple choice: who is Ayn Rand? a) a philosopher god
                                                 b) a delusional fuckwit
                                                 c) who?
(b,c are correct)

Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Dangerous Idea: Democracy is Overrated
« Reply #54 on: August 28, 2013, 12:19:51 pm »
And I failed at #1 because I don't know what KD is.

As for 2 and 3...


3 minutes, and a delusional fuckwit.
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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Dangerous Idea: Democracy is Overrated
« Reply #55 on: August 28, 2013, 07:48:43 pm »
They wouldn't take the form of literacy tests, nowadays. It'd be, say, civics tests, where people who went to private schools and expensive universities would have a significant advantage. People who can afford an education tend to do better in academic settings, if only because they are more used to them. So you'd end up with wealthier being overrepresented in the allowed voter population. Democracy as-is is already heavily biased towards people with money, there's no need to make it more so.

And that's in the ideal case where everything runs properly and the tests are administered fairly and so on. In practice, it's going to add yet another layer of bureaucracy that can be manipulated in favour of the desired result.

The thing is, a civics test that people have trouble passing would be a good thing.
Yes, people with a better education and who are wealthier are more likely to pass the test, but at the same time, they are also people who are more likely to actually know things like the difference between capitalism and communism and how they apply to government styles.

People who can pass civics tests are still heavily biased humans, and politics is the place where bias shines the brightest The fundamental problem with the idea of voting to determine the best candidates and policies is that the sort of abilities that favour winning an election are not strongly correlated with the sort of abilities that help in running a country or writing good laws or whatever else. To win an election, being charismatic and a good public speaker will help you quite a bit purely due to the halo effect, even among better educated people. I don't think these help too much in determining when to start a war, or how much should privacy and freedom be sacrificed in the name of security. In fact, I don't think there's any easy way to determine who has the skills to be a good president/senator/governor/etc. until after you give them the job and see how they did. And even then, it might jut be that their particular skill set was suited for the specific problems that arose when they were in charge, and they'd fail miserably if faced with the problems that might arise in some other time period.

So if I'm so sceptical about the ability of educated people to determine good candidates, why do I think uneducated people will do better? I don't. I do, however, think that democracy has the very useful feature that you don't need a popular revolt to change who is in power, which creates a stronger incentive against the government fucking the people over too badly. This useful feature of democracies, though, fails if there is some particular class of people who are under-represented in the voting pool, because policy will default into decisions that harm them and benefit the rest.

Democracy also has the useful property of letting people think they have some control over the future of the country. Removing this (in large part illusionary) feeling from a segment of the population is bound to piss them off, cause social friction, etc.

Do note that I don't mean you should only vote to oust people you dislike or getting informed is pointless. A more informed public is better, if perhaps only weakly so. (A very well-informed public might have a strong advantage, here, but to get that you need to remove a lot of people from the voting pool, exacerbating the problem of the unrepresented groups getting fucked over). I have no strong argument for why the exact level of removing bad voters most democracies implement now (i.e. people under 18 can't vote and so on) is the ideal for the balance between informed voters vs. represented groups, but it seems strongly the case that a test-based system goes too far into removing representation.

All that being said, it might be interesting to see if anyone has done a study of the voting habits of better educated people, see if there are any interesting trends.

Quote
Right now the wealthy have undue influence in politics because they can easily manipulate the majority of low information voters. An electorate that actually is knowledgeable about the issues being voted on would be significantly less likely to be manipulated and would be able to formulate their own opinions more readily.

I strongly disagree. People at all levels in education are more or less equally influenced by advertising campaigns, which is the major advantage money can buy. If nothing else, you can't vote for someone you've never heard of.

The easiest solution for this is to make it so all politicians have equal, state-granted campaign funds. Far more efficient than disenfranchising part of the population, though it's probably not trivial to enforce.


Quote
Lastly, I am strongly in favor of international intervention with regards to elections. A committee of different foreign nations should become the independent electoral commission, handling voter registration and vote counting. It is far too easy for current local governments and organizations to influence voting patterns and rules.

That mostly shifts the problem to foreign nations influencing elections, which means they can end up favouring candidates based on foreign policy rather than what's good for the actual citizens of the country.

There's also sovereignty issues, and people-pissed-off-at-them-damn-foreigners issues. It seems far more trouble than it's worth.

Quote
Short version is that I strongly do not trust democracy.

Neither do I. But I trust most alternatives significantly less.

Quote
Government positions should require aptitude tests to make sure that the person applying for the position actually understands their job and is capable of doing the job. After they pass the test can you then perhaps have people in the field vote to get the final candidate. Far too often people who have no idea about anything are given government positions and other times people unrelated to an issue and without any real understanding of an issue vote. Limiting options to ensure relevancy is a good thing.

I would actually agree with aptitude tests for some government positions, but it still brings up the problems of who decides what goes on the test.
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Offline Igor

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Re: Dangerous Idea: Democracy is Overrated
« Reply #56 on: August 28, 2013, 08:52:35 pm »
And I failed at #1 because I don't know what KD is.

As for 2 and 3...


3 minutes, and a delusional fuckwit.
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Offline Cerim Treascair

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Re: Dangerous Idea: Democracy is Overrated
« Reply #57 on: August 28, 2013, 09:46:39 pm »
And I failed at #1 because I don't know what KD is.

As for 2 and 3...


3 minutes, and a delusional fuckwit.
Kraft Dinner, and the answers are real cheese (albeit the cheap stuff), ketchup, and sliced up hot dogs.

Alternatively, tuna, peas, and smoked sausage.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Dangerous Idea: Democracy is Overrated
« Reply #58 on: August 28, 2013, 09:55:18 pm »
And I failed at #1 because I don't know what KD is.

As for 2 and 3...


3 minutes, and a delusional fuckwit.
Kraft Dinner, and the answers are real cheese (albeit the cheap stuff), ketchup, and sliced up hot dogs.

I actually don't like sliced up hot dogs in my Kraft Macaroni and cheese.

Or ketchup.

Real cheese, sure.

Alternatively, tuna, peas, and smoked sausage.

...I think I might become physically sick from imagining the result.
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Offline Igor

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Re: Dangerous Idea: Democracy is Overrated
« Reply #59 on: August 28, 2013, 10:02:17 pm »
Well, the question was how to make it more interesting, not better. KD is hard to salvage at the best of times. Though I will agree, macaroni and peas is gross. As for smoked sausage.. think cheaper, that's why I said hot dogs.


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The logical response to getting that tingle in his dingle is turning into an asshat, of course.

Les ananas ne parlent pas!