Author Topic: SCOTUS to Take Up Gay Marriage  (Read 10723 times)

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Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: SCOTUS to Take Up Gay Marriage
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2012, 07:41:46 pm »
Antonin Scalia's still on the Supreme Court, so unless by some miracle he dies I doubt this is going to turn out particularly awesome.
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Offline cheese007

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Re: SCOTUS to Take Up Gay Marriage
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2012, 07:50:34 pm »
If this court can uphold the healthcare law, then I'm confident about same-sex marriage.

Offline dpareja

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Re: SCOTUS to Take Up Gay Marriage
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2012, 08:00:51 pm »
If this court can uphold the healthcare law, then I'm confident about same-sex marriage.

But they didn't, not really.

Roberts, in my view, gave Obama the worst possible outcome.

First, he could have struck it down. What happens then? Obama goes to the people, points out that he needs a Democratic majority in the House (and a Senate supermajority) to get all the goodies promised in the bill, then he gets it and passes the thing again with a few minor changes--not the same law, thing gets re-litigated, possibly after Scalia or Thomas passes away.

Second, he could have found it constitutional under the Commerce Clause. This would have given the federal government a lot of power to enforce it--for instance, the federally subsidised plans are (AFAIK) only available through the state exchanges, and so if a state chooses not to set one up its citizens can't get those plans. If the federal government has Commerce Clause authority, they can do a lot, plus it would mean that Commerce extends to individual mandates.

But he did neither of these things. He found it constitutional under the Taxation Clause. That means that there's little incentive for the government to tinker to try to get it to be constitutional under Commerce--they might just strike it down outright next time--but that they can't do much if a state chooses not to set up an exchange, meaning all its citizens have to get expensive private plans or pay a tax.

So basically the government is stuck being seen as taxing people and can't do much to get the states to do what the feds want, so the states can turn around and blame the federal government for that new tax you've got to pay.

The Progressive has a nice article on why the Supreme Court will legalize same-sex marriage. Worth the read.

I dispute points 4 and 5 in this article.

For point 4, I've noted my objections above--Kennedy did write Romer and Lawrence, but that's because Stevens, as senior associate justice, let him write them. Rehnquist probably would have given them to Scalia, leaving Kennedy with the choice of writing the majority opinion or signing onto Scalia's.

For point 5, see above. Roberts didn't let the health-care law prevail the way the federal government wanted it to prevail. He gave them a Pyrrhic victory.
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Offline Rabbit of Caerbannog

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Re: SCOTUS to Take Up Gay Marriage
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2012, 09:09:18 pm »
Antonin Scalia's still on the Supreme Court, so unless by some miracle he dies I doubt this is going to turn out particularly awesome.
Scalia would have to be in the majority for his opinion to even matter. Kennedy would have to somehow be persuaded to go against his own previous opinions in order to uphold bans on gay marriage.

Offline Rabbit of Caerbannog

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Re: SCOTUS to Take Up Gay Marriage
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2012, 09:14:27 pm »
I dispute points 4 and 5 in this article.

For point 4, I've noted my objections above--Kennedy did write Romer and Lawrence, but that's because Stevens, as senior associate justice, let him write them. Rehnquist probably would have given them to Scalia, leaving Kennedy with the choice of writing the majority opinion or signing onto Scalia's.
If Rehnquist were in the majority then he could have dictated who would write the opinion, but he wasn't. The same applies now. If Roberts is not in the majority and Kennedy is, then guess who the most senior member in the majority is? That would be Justice Kennedy who could then write the opinion himself.

Offline dpareja

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Re: SCOTUS to Take Up Gay Marriage
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2012, 09:22:06 pm »
I dispute points 4 and 5 in this article.

For point 4, I've noted my objections above--Kennedy did write Romer and Lawrence, but that's because Stevens, as senior associate justice, let him write them. Rehnquist probably would have given them to Scalia, leaving Kennedy with the choice of writing the majority opinion or signing onto Scalia's.
If Rehnquist were in the majority then he could have dictated who would write the opinion, but he wasn't. The same applies now. If Roberts is not in the majority and Kennedy is, then guess who the most senior member in the majority is? That would be Justice Kennedy who could then write the opinion himself.

That's my point: Kennedy sided with Stevens because Stevens let him write the opinions, where Rehnquist wouldn't have. The other one noted above (where he didn't write the opinion) he might well have been in the majority because he realized it would look bad if he wasn't given Romer and Lawrence. I still wouldn't be surprised if he stopped short of gay marriage and just pulled the usual "marriage is a special term with a special meaning" card.
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It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Rabbit of Caerbannog

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Re: SCOTUS to Take Up Gay Marriage
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2012, 09:28:22 pm »
I dispute points 4 and 5 in this article.

For point 4, I've noted my objections above--Kennedy did write Romer and Lawrence, but that's because Stevens, as senior associate justice, let him write them. Rehnquist probably would have given them to Scalia, leaving Kennedy with the choice of writing the majority opinion or signing onto Scalia's.
If Rehnquist were in the majority then he could have dictated who would write the opinion, but he wasn't. The same applies now. If Roberts is not in the majority and Kennedy is, then guess who the most senior member in the majority is? That would be Justice Kennedy who could then write the opinion himself.

That's my point: Kennedy sided with Stevens because Stevens let him write the opinions, where Rehnquist wouldn't have. The other one noted above (where he didn't write the opinion) he might well have been in the majority because he realized it would look bad if he wasn't given Romer and Lawrence. I still wouldn't be surprised if he stopped short of gay marriage and just pulled the usual "marriage is a special term with a special meaning" card.
I'm afraid I don't understand the point you're trying to get across. Are you saying the only reason Kennedy voted as he did was because Stevens said he could write the opinions? Kennedy is more or less a staunch libertarian who doesn't believe the government should be able to restrict one's private, consensual conduct. I think his views on the subject of LGBT rights are genuine. I would be surprised if all of the sudden he abandoned logic and fell for the "traditional marriage" argument. And you also leave Christian Legal Society out of the equation wherein he sided with the liberal voting bloc and didn't write the opinion.

EDIT: I liked this quote from a SCOTUS clerk from the Romer term: "Kennedy definitely wanted the case. … His big shtick was this was an exceptional case, this was an outrage. He wanted to sock it to the people of Colorado. The emphasis on motive, bad guys is very much Kennedy."

I think he's really an ally.

Offline dpareja

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Re: SCOTUS to Take Up Gay Marriage
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2012, 11:42:43 pm »
I'm afraid I don't understand the point you're trying to get across. Are you saying the only reason Kennedy voted as he did was because Stevens said he could write the opinions? Kennedy is more or less a staunch libertarian who doesn't believe the government should be able to restrict one's private, consensual conduct. I think his views on the subject of LGBT rights are genuine. I would be surprised if all of the sudden he abandoned logic and fell for the "traditional marriage" argument. And you also leave Christian Legal Society out of the equation wherein he sided with the liberal voting bloc and didn't write the opinion.

EDIT: I liked this quote from a SCOTUS clerk from the Romer term: "Kennedy definitely wanted the case. … His big shtick was this was an exceptional case, this was an outrage. He wanted to sock it to the people of Colorado. The emphasis on motive, bad guys is very much Kennedy."

I think he's really an ally.

I did mention Christian Legal Society indirectly--I mentioned that it could well have been that he was in the majority not because he got to write the opinion but because he realized he had to be to be consistent with where he sided in Lawrence and Romer. (I just couldn't recall the name of the case.)

However, I was unaware of that quote regarding Kennedy's view on Romer.

It still wouldn't surprise me to see him stop short of marriage, given the firestorm that surrounds that particular term, but I take your point.
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It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Veras

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Re: SCOTUS to Take Up Gay Marriage
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2012, 07:01:05 pm »
The Onion has an interesting take on the case.  I don't find it funny, and I'm not even sure that it's supposed to be a joke.  It seems to be a serious critique of Clarence Thomas (with a nice little potshot at Scalia).  What do you guys think?
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Offline Rabbit of Caerbannog

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Re: SCOTUS to Take Up Gay Marriage
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2012, 10:37:02 pm »
The Onion has an interesting take on the case.  I don't find it funny, and I'm not even sure that it's supposed to be a joke.  It seems to be a serious critique of Clarence Thomas (with a nice little potshot at Scalia).  What do you guys think?
I love The Onion but that wasn't one of their better pieces. If anything it should have been aimed at Scalia, who cannot stop shooting his mouth off about homosexuality being wrong.

Offline dpareja

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Re: SCOTUS to Take Up Gay Marriage
« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2012, 10:53:18 pm »
The Onion has an interesting take on the case.  I don't find it funny, and I'm not even sure that it's supposed to be a joke.  It seems to be a serious critique of Clarence Thomas (with a nice little potshot at Scalia).  What do you guys think?
I love The Onion but that wasn't one of their better pieces. If anything it should have been aimed at Scalia, who cannot stop shooting his mouth off about homosexuality being wrong.

I think they aimed it at Thomas (with a shot at Scalia) because Thomas, previously just a clone of Scalia, has become Scalia, only wackier. If that's what Scalia thinks, I shudder to think what Thomas thinks.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Rabbit of Caerbannog

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Re: SCOTUS to Take Up Gay Marriage
« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2012, 11:08:40 pm »
The Onion has an interesting take on the case.  I don't find it funny, and I'm not even sure that it's supposed to be a joke.  It seems to be a serious critique of Clarence Thomas (with a nice little potshot at Scalia).  What do you guys think?
I love The Onion but that wasn't one of their better pieces. If anything it should have been aimed at Scalia, who cannot stop shooting his mouth off about homosexuality being wrong.

I think they aimed it at Thomas (with a shot at Scalia) because Thomas, previously just a clone of Scalia, has become Scalia, only wackier. If that's what Scalia thinks, I shudder to think what Thomas thinks.
Oh, Thomas is a reliable yea vote on whether states can ban same-sex marriage. But like I said, I think Kennedy's got this one. Of course we shall have to wait and see, but I sense that this will be a 5-4 ruling with Kennedy writing the opinion--at least in the Perry case. In Windsor I think it will also be 5-4 but perhaps with the opinion written by Ginsberg. I say this because Judge Walker's decision in Perry was written in such a way that it was specifically geared towards Kennedy, so he will probably decide to answer it with an opinion of his own.

Offline kefkaownsall

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Re: SCOTUS to Take Up Gay Marriage
« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2012, 11:27:29 pm »
So apparently Scalia says banning gay people fucking is like banning murder

Offline Rabbit of Caerbannog

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Re: SCOTUS to Take Up Gay Marriage
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2012, 11:33:25 pm »
So apparently Scalia says banning gay people fucking is like banning murder
He was attempting to say that the legislature is allowed to pass laws which govern morality, such as laws which prohibit murder. Therefore, the legislature can pass other laws which govern morality such as bans on sodomy. What he neglects to mention is that, while one can say the prohibition on murder is based in moral condemnation of the act, murder is also an act that violates the fundamental rights of other people. Moreover, murder being allowed would cause lawlessness, with people being able to exact "justice" upon whomever they please and for any reason. Sodomy, on the other hand, does not. So I would say the mere moral disapproval of murder is not a sufficient explanation for laws prohibiting it, that there are practical and rights-centered reasons for such laws. The same cannot be applied to homosexual sex.

Offline Vypernight

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Re: SCOTUS to Take Up Gay Marriage
« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2012, 04:15:24 am »
Gotta love the, 'gay sex = murder' arguments.  As if unnatural sex (by their POV) hurts so many people.  Personally, the only sex I think is wrong is rape, cheating, sex with a child, and anything that could earn you a Darwin Award.
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