Author Topic: Good Things People Say on the Internet  (Read 111273 times)

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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #75 on: August 30, 2015, 08:10:41 am »
Well, my understanding is that there's a difference between sexual objectification and idealization. Sexual objectification is "this character has been designed this way for you, the consumer, to derive satisfaction from ogling" and idealization is "this character is awesome, look at how awesome they are, you want to be this character". Female characters in games are largely subjected to the former and male ones to the latter. (Not that idealization of male characters doesn't contribute to body issues or that male characters can't be sexually objectified, but you know, in general it's like this.)

Isn't there something of an overlap between the two?

[possibly talking out of my ass but fuck it, nothing ventured nothing gained]
Samus in a catsuit is probably the former. She is put in a catsuit because "hey look, boobs! you like boobs, don't you? let's accent this woman's boobs because boobs are hot!". Kratos is topless to express a sense of power. Look at Kratos, the design decision says. Kratos is powerful. Kratos is the hero. Kratos is in control, the muscles say so.
[/possibly talking out of my ass but fuck it, nothing ventured nothing gained]

But is Samus really sexualized?  She doesn't act even remotely sexual.  Sure, she wears a really tight outfit that leaves little to the imagination, but you know who else does that?



Besides, if anything, he's far more sexualized than Samus is.  Unlike with her Zero Suit, Snake's ass crack is showing.

He's not the only one.  Liquid runs around shirtless in the middle of Alaska.  Raiden (whose character was created to appeal to women, by the way) was forced to go naked.  That's not even getting into Kaz.

But nobody gave a shit about any of that.  You know what raised hackles before the game even came out?  Quiet's outfit.  Double standard, much?

Tangent, but there's also a difference between "this character dresses/acts sexily because they're confident in their sexuality/it's in-character for them/etc." and "this character is sexualized to titillate the viewer". Often, jackasses think the former is happening when really it's the latter.

And on the other hand, there are those who think the latter is happening when it's really the former.  Just look at all the self-righteous outrage about Morrigan and Bayonetta.

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #76 on: August 30, 2015, 08:25:13 am »
Quote from: Ultimate Paragon
Double standard, much?

Not sure if this constitutes a direct question in this context, but just in case I'll address it by saying that I'm really tired right now and thus not at my maximum capacity for discussing the nuances of objectification in vidya. I'll get back to this later.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 08:27:50 am by Even Then »

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #77 on: August 30, 2015, 08:29:35 am »
Quote from: Ultimate Paragon
Double standard, much?

Not sure if this constitutes a direct question in this context, but just in case I'll address it by saying that I'm really tired right now and thus not at my maximum capacity for discussing the nuances of objectification in vidya. I'll get back to this later.

It wasn't a direct question.  But you can answer it if you want to.

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #78 on: August 30, 2015, 09:34:05 pm »
Okay, I'm rested. Let's do this.

- "Isn't there something of an overlap between the two?"

Sure? But these are still fundamentally different concepts.

- "But is Samus really sexualized?  She doesn't act even remotely sexual."

She was put in an outfit that accentuates her boobs and figure while previously, (might be wrong on this) her outfits didn't. The design change is a display of increased sexualization in the design of Samus.

- "Besides, if anything, he's far more sexualized than Samus is.  Unlike with her Zero Suit, Snake's ass crack is showing."

Male ass cracks don't have greater sexual pressure put on them by society than female breasts. I don't think even Japan is that weird.

- "Liquid runs around shirtless in the middle of Alaska."

Another example of idealization, not objectification, at least to me. "Look at this mega-badass who can run around shirtless in the middle of Alaska. Such strong. Very agency. Wow."

- "Raiden (whose character was created to appeal to women, by the way) was forced to go naked.  That's not even getting into Kaz."

Okay, Raiden would be a good example of sexual objectification in that case. And what's this about Kaz? I don't know as much about MGS as I should, and when I googled the guy all I got was a dude in a cool brown jacket.

- "But nobody gave a shit about any of that.  You know what raised hackles before the game even came out?  Quiet's outfit.  Double standard, much?"

It's almost like gaming has a long-ass history of sexualizing women at the cost of depriving them of agency while letting men be fully realized characters without sexualization or something. And no, that doesn't mean that EVERY GAME EVER has done this or that things aren't better in more recent games, but still. Also, the whole "boob doll" thing doesn't help.

- "And on the other hand, there are those who think the latter is happening when it's really the former.  Just look at all the self-righteous outrage about Morrigan and Bayonetta."

Yeah, Bayonetta's a bit of a border case. On one hand, the copious crotch and ass shots, but on the other, Bayonetta's presented as a character who's in control and enjoying her sexuality on her own terms. So it's kind of grey.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #79 on: August 30, 2015, 10:13:55 pm »
Okay, I'm rested. Let's do this.

- "Isn't there something of an overlap between the two?"

Sure? But these are still fundamentally different concepts.

True, but the audience doesn't always say things the way the creator intends.  Case in point, Anno intended for Rei to be creepy, but legions of Otaku the world over consider her their waifu.

- "But is Samus really sexualized?  She doesn't act even remotely sexual."

She was put in an outfit that accentuates her boobs and figure while previously, (might be wrong on this) her outfits didn't. The design change is a display of increased sexualization in the design of Samus.

I meant in terms of behavior.  She doesn't gratuitously twist her spine in such a way that her breasts and butt were both visible. She wears a more revealing outfit, but she still acts pretty much the same.  Now, there is legitimate sexism in Metroid (see: Other M), but I don't think the Zero Suit is all that objectionable.

Besides, in Twilight Princess, Link takes off his shirt.  Does that make him more sexualized? 

- "Besides, if anything, he's far more sexualized than Samus is.  Unlike with her Zero Suit, Snake's ass crack is showing."

Male ass cracks don't have greater sexual pressure put on them by society than female breasts. I don't think even Japan is that weird.

Nevertheless, Solid Snake has legions of fangirls.  Which I'm sure his revealing outfit has nothing to do with.

- "Liquid runs around shirtless in the middle of Alaska."

Another example of idealization, not objectification, at least to me. "Look at this mega-badass who can run around shirtless in the middle of Alaska. Such strong. Very agency. Wow."

Considering the sexualization of other male characters in the franchise, I wouldn't be so sure, especially considering how weird the series can get.

- "Raiden (whose character was created to appeal to women, by the way) was forced to go naked.  That's not even getting into Kaz."

Okay, Raiden would be a good example of sexual objectification in that case. And what's this about Kaz? I don't know as much about MGS as I should, and when I googled the guy all I got was a dude in a cool brown jacket.

Well, feast your eyes on this:



If you think he's not sexualized, I've got an Infinium Phantom to sell you.

- "But nobody gave a shit about any of that.  You know what raised hackles before the game even came out?  Quiet's outfit.  Double standard, much?"

It's almost like gaming has a long-ass history of sexualizing women at the cost of depriving them of agency while letting men be fully realized characters without sexualization or something. And no, that doesn't mean that EVERY GAME EVER has done this or that things aren't better in more recent games, but still. Also, the whole "boob doll" thing doesn't help.

And there's a big problem.  See, there are certain self-proclaimed "culture critics" who focus on the broader cultural context surrounding female characters, rather than judging them on a case-by-case basis.  In my opinion, that's not a good strategy for analysis.  True, the big picture is important, but one shouldn't lose the trees for the forest (to turn an idiom on its head).  That's like lumping Virgil Tibbs, Al Powell, and Alonzo Harris in together.

- "And on the other hand, there are those who think the latter is happening when it's really the former.  Just look at all the self-righteous outrage about Morrigan and Bayonetta."

Yeah, Bayonetta's a bit of a border case. On one hand, the copious crotch and ass shots, but on the other, Bayonetta's presented as a character who's in control and enjoying her sexuality on her own terms. So it's kind of grey.

How exactly is that a "border case"?

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #80 on: August 30, 2015, 10:32:05 pm »
Quote from: UP
True, but the audience doesn't always say things the way the creator intends.  Case in point, Anno intended for Rei to be creepy, but legions of Otaku the world over consider her their waifu.

Fair enough. There's a difference between designer intent and audience reaction, for sure.

Quote from: UP
I meant in terms of behavior.  She doesn't gratuitously twist her spine in such a way that her breasts and butt were both visible. She wears a more revealing outfit, but she still acts pretty much the same.  Now, there is legitimate sexism in Metroid (see: Other M), but I don't think the Zero Suit is all that objectionable.

Besides, in Twilight Princess, Link takes off his shirt.  Does that make him more sexualized? 

In the sense that a shirtless (adult) Link would be more sexualized than a shirt-wearing one? Sure. In the sense that a shirtless Link would be more sexualized than a boob-accentuated Samus? Given the different sexual pressure that is put on male and female chests both by designers (the ones who design with the heterosexual male audience in mind, at least, which is a large chunk of them tbh) and consumers (in most parts of the world), I wouldn't say so.

What's this about Other M, though? I've heard bits and pieces, but not the whole story. (Feel free not to answer that one, just putting it out there.)

Quote from: UP
Nevertheless, Solid Snake has legions of fangirls.  Which I'm sure his revealing outfit has nothing to do with.

Not gonna deny the possibility of that.

Quote from: UP
Considering the sexualization of other male characters in the franchise, I wouldn't be so sure, especially considering how weird the series can get.

Fair enough, the possibility's always there.

Quote from: UP
If you think he's not sexualized, I've got an Infinium Phantom to sell you.

...well, damn:-[

Quote from: UP
How exactly is that a "border case"?

...in the way I just said? The prolonged sexual camera angles (I might be wrong on them even existing, but I remember seeing some) could suggest objectification, but Bayonetta herself is presented as a sexual character instead of a sexualized character. So it's not 100% clear.

Offline mellenORL

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #81 on: August 31, 2015, 09:46:14 am »


That strikes me as parody more than sexualized. He looks like a random nutcase NPC from GTA.
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Offline Cloud3514

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #82 on: August 31, 2015, 03:04:35 pm »
Oh look, Paragon doesn't seem to understand context. I'm SO surprised.
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #83 on: August 31, 2015, 03:46:57 pm »
Oh look, Paragon doesn't seem to understand context. I'm SO surprised.

And Cloud thinks identity politics matter more than objective reality.  I'm also surprised.

ETA: How about some blatant double standards from The Mary Sue?

(click to show/hide)

So, it's okay for them to ogle Ryu, but God forbid a female fighter show some skin.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 10:14:57 pm by Ultimate Paragon »

Offline Cloud3514

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #84 on: August 31, 2015, 11:04:52 pm »
Says the guy pretending that parody sexualization is the same thing as designing characters for the male gaze.
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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #85 on: August 31, 2015, 11:42:56 pm »
Also, in order for "Hot Ryu" to be equivalent to that BDSM clown outfit they're trying to pass off as a character, he'd have to be wearing assless chaps and clothes that are designed to point towards his dick as if to say "we want you to pay attention to Ryu's dick".

Actually, screw the assless chaps, he'd have to go almost full Borat for his outfit to be equivalent to Mika's.

Offline Svata

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #86 on: September 01, 2015, 07:03:31 am »
Ever played MGS 3? Then I have one word. Eva.
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #87 on: September 01, 2015, 07:34:48 am »
Ever played MGS 3? Then I have one word. Eva.

Who was deliberately trying to seduce Naked Snake.

Also, in order for "Hot Ryu" to be equivalent to that BDSM clown outfit they're trying to pass off as a character, he'd have to be wearing assless chaps and clothes that are designed to point towards his dick as if to say "we want you to pay attention to Ryu's dick".

Actually, screw the assless chaps, he'd have to go almost full Borat for his outfit to be equivalent to Mika's.

Oh, the old "it has to be exactly equal" line.

Except it doesn't.  What's (generally) considered attractive for a man isn't the same as what's (generally) considered attractive for a woman.  You want evidence?  "Hot Ryu" was trending on Twitter yesterday.

And that's not the only bit of hypocrisy coming from this particular author:



I have absolutely no problem with Maddy ogling male video game characters.  What I do have a problem with is her shameless hypocrisy.  One standard for thee, another for me.

Says the guy pretending that parody sexualization is the same thing as designing characters for the male gaze.

Then maybe Paz is parodying sexualization too.



But that can't be, because she's a womyn, and making a female character even remotely sexual is immoral problematic.

And I noticed that certain "culture critics" keep asking for examples of men being dressed or posed similarly to typical examples of male-oriented fanservice, but when they're given them, they call it "satire".  Goalpost moving at its finest.

Besides, I have yet to see any of you cite a single source suggesting that the depiction of women in video games has any impact on how women are treated in the real world.

Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #88 on: September 01, 2015, 11:10:36 am »
So 'Hot Ryu' is shirtless to show off his muscles and hyper-masculinity in order to emphasize his combat prowess. Mika is virtually shirtless to show off her tits.

Big strong man punch thing hard vs. I like boobies.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #89 on: September 01, 2015, 11:42:50 am »
So 'Hot Ryu' is shirtless to show off his muscles and hyper-masculinity in order to emphasize his combat prowess. Mika is virtually shirtless to show off her tits.

Big strong man punch thing hard vs. I like boobies.

Ah yes, the "male power fantasy" refrain.  Well, romance novels are intended for women.  But if you see a man on one's cover, chances are he's muscular and shirtless.  Obviously, enough women find that attractive for it to be a viable marketing tactic.