Man arrested for tricking girlfriend into taking abortion pill

[Sigmaleph]

He could be charged with attempted murder on the girlfriend. While the abortion pill is relatively safe, there are a few side effects that can result in maternal mortality.

Where's the mens rea?

True. It would have been more manslaughter if something had happened to her.

Even then the case is thin. A reasonable person would not be concerned that serious harm could be done by an FDA-approved drug.

This is a drug that is administered in a specific way, in combination with other drugs, and has a number of contraindications that should be checked for. [link]. It has the possibility for serious complications, with a risk that is much diminished if the person knows that she's taken the drug and can look for them.

This is not terribly relevant at this point, since it's not what actually happened. But in the hypothetical case that she suffered fatal complications that could've been prevented by administering the drug in the recommended way, or performing the appropriate checks, or medical attention at the right time that she missed because she didn't know to look for symptoms, then I think a manslaughter charge isn't a stretch.

[PosthumanHeresy]

Note though, his crimes are all linked to the fetus. The mail fraud was for getting it and the witness tampering is only because he's being charged with this. So, he's not in trouble for tricking her into taking it. He's in trouble because the fetus died.

[wrightway]

Note though, his crimes are all linked to the fetus. The mail fraud was for getting it and the witness tampering is only because he's being charged with this. So, he's not in trouble for tricking her into taking it. He's in trouble because the fetus died.

He at least needs an assault charge for what he did to her.

[PosthumanHeresy]

Note though, his crimes are all linked to the fetus. The mail fraud was for getting it and the witness tampering is only because he's being charged with this. So, he's not in trouble for tricking her into taking it. He's in trouble because the fetus died.

He at least needs an assault charge for what he did to her.

I certainly agree, but I don't think they're going to bother with it.

[ScrappyB]

The guy is a sack of shit, but I'm against legally treating a fetus as a separate person because it gives the anti-abortion advocates ammunition. "How can it be murder when someone else kills a fetus, but not when an abortion doctor does it?" It also opens the mother up to charges for harming the fetus through her actions. Should mothers who smoke or drink be charged with poisoning the fetus? What about if they do it before they know they're pregnant and stop afterward?

I don't support abortion up until the moment of birth, but IMHO a fetus should not be a legal person until it's actually born.

[PosthumanHeresy]

The guy is a sack of shit, but I'm against legally treating a fetus as a separate person because it gives the anti-abortion advocates ammunition. "How can it be murder when someone else kills a fetus, but not when an abortion doctor does it?" It also opens the mother up to charges for harming the fetus through her actions. Should mothers who smoke or drink be charged with poisoning the fetus? What about if they do it before they know they're pregnant and stop afterward?

I don't support abortion up until the moment of birth, but IMHO a fetus should not be a legal person until it's actually born.

I agree, but I do believe if it is born and has fetal alcohol syndrome or damage from smoking, it should be taken away immediately.

[Barbarella]

The guy is a sack of shit, but I'm against legally treating a fetus as a separate person because it gives the anti-abortion advocates ammunition. "How can it be murder when someone else kills a fetus, but not when an abortion doctor does it?" It also opens the mother up to charges for harming the fetus through her actions. Should mothers who smoke or drink be charged with poisoning the fetus? What about if they do it before they know they're pregnant and stop afterward?

I don't support abortion up until the moment of birth, but IMHO a fetus should not be a legal person until it's actually born.

I know how to answer that conundrum.....what Mr. Slimy McMenowantbaby did was as anti-choice as banning abortion. The woman wanted to keep the baby but this turkey didn't. It goes both ways. If a woman wants an abortion, that's her right. If a woman want's to go through with the pregnancy & birth the little one, that's her right too. This guy violated this woman's rights (and hurt her in the process).

[anti-nonsense]

I agree, right to choose goes both ways,  women have exactly as much right to choose to keep a baby as they do to abort, and ultimately nobody, not even the father has the right to gainsay them (baring possible severe medical complications with the pregnancy).

Ideally of course, women will listen to their boyfriend/husband's opinion and take it into account when making decisions, but once she decides that should be that.

The fact that the woman in question in this stituation is a fundie idiot ALSO has no bearing on the matter, it doesn't matter if they want to keep the kid for stupid reasons, some people get abortions for stupid reasons too.

[ScrappyB]

The guy is a sack of shit, but I'm against legally treating a fetus as a separate person because it gives the anti-abortion advocates ammunition. "How can it be murder when someone else kills a fetus, but not when an abortion doctor does it?" It also opens the mother up to charges for harming the fetus through her actions. Should mothers who smoke or drink be charged with poisoning the fetus? What about if they do it before they know they're pregnant and stop afterward?

I don't support abortion up until the moment of birth, but IMHO a fetus should not be a legal person until it's actually born.

I know how to answer that conundrum.....what Mr. Slimy McMenowantbaby did was as anti-choice as banning abortion. The woman wanted to keep the baby but this turkey didn't. It goes both ways. If a woman wants an abortion, that's her right. If a woman want's to go through with the pregnancy & birth the little one, that's her right too. This guy violated this woman's rights (and hurt her in the process).

He definitely took her choice away, and he should be charged for harming her. But he should not be charged with murder. Treating a fetus as a legal person under any circumstances opens up a can of worms and gives fuel to the antis.

[Meshakhad]

I think felony assault charges should be appropriate, as if he'd beaten her to a pulp.

[Yla]

The guy is a sack of shit, but I'm against legally treating a fetus as a separate person because it gives the anti-abortion advocates ammunition. "How can it be murder when someone else kills a fetus, but not when an abortion doctor does it?" It also opens the mother up to charges for harming the fetus through her actions. Should mothers who smoke or drink be charged with poisoning the fetus? What about if they do it before they know they're pregnant and stop afterward?

I don't support abortion up until the moment of birth, but IMHO a fetus should not be a legal person until it's actually born.

I agree, but I do believe if it is born and has fetal alcohol syndrome or damage from smoking, it should be taken away immediately.

Taken away... to where, exactly? And why?
From what I know, the most probable fate of a child with FAS in the foster system is so bad that if all the mother did was smoke and drink during pregnancy(knowingly or unknowingly? you didn't specify) I think it'd have better odds staying with her.

[PosthumanHeresy]

The guy is a sack of shit, but I'm against legally treating a fetus as a separate person because it gives the anti-abortion advocates ammunition. "How can it be murder when someone else kills a fetus, but not when an abortion doctor does it?" It also opens the mother up to charges for harming the fetus through her actions. Should mothers who smoke or drink be charged with poisoning the fetus? What about if they do it before they know they're pregnant and stop afterward?

I don't support abortion up until the moment of birth, but IMHO a fetus should not be a legal person until it's actually born.

I agree, but I do believe if it is born and has fetal alcohol syndrome or damage from smoking, it should be taken away immediately.

Taken away... to where, exactly? And why?
From what I know, the most probable fate of a child with FAS in the foster system is so bad that if all the mother did was smoke and drink during pregnancy(knowingly or unknowingly? you didn't specify) I think it'd have better odds staying with her.

I mean, if the infant is born with FAS, it should be in the foster system. There's also birth defects caused by smoking, and those should also get the kid taken from the parents.

[Canadian Mojo]

The guy is a sack of shit, but I'm against legally treating a fetus as a separate person because it gives the anti-abortion advocates ammunition. "How can it be murder when someone else kills a fetus, but not when an abortion doctor does it?" It also opens the mother up to charges for harming the fetus through her actions. Should mothers who smoke or drink be charged with poisoning the fetus? What about if they do it before they know they're pregnant and stop afterward?

I don't support abortion up until the moment of birth, but IMHO a fetus should not be a legal person until it's actually born.

I know how to answer that conundrum.....what Mr. Slimy McMenowantbaby did was as anti-choice as banning abortion. The woman wanted to keep the baby but this turkey didn't. It goes both ways. If a woman wants an abortion, that's her right. If a woman want's to go through with the pregnancy & birth the little one, that's her right too. This guy violated this woman's rights (and hurt her in the process).

He definitely took her choice away, and he should be charged for harming her. But he should not be charged with murder. Treating a fetus as a legal person under any circumstances opens up a can of worms and gives fuel to the antis.

Eh, fuck the anti's, they will never understand the subtleties and nuances of a complex issue anyway. Some of them are so black and white in their thinking that rape and incest are gifts from god and that ending needless and ultimately fatal pain and suffering of a fetus or self preservation of the mother is simply selfish. The reality is that a  fetus has as much or as little value as its mother ascribes to it. If she wants it, it is a baby, and killing it is murder to her. If she doesn't want it, it is an invasive clump of cells growing in her body that she is free to dispose of. Of course, understanding and accepting that a fetus can be two things simultaneously depending on where you are looking at it from is far too complex for these people.

Personally, I have no problem with a murder charge -- if that is what the mother wants because that is what the loss is to her.

[Witchyjoshy]

The guy is a sack of shit, but I'm against legally treating a fetus as a separate person because it gives the anti-abortion advocates ammunition. "How can it be murder when someone else kills a fetus, but not when an abortion doctor does it?" It also opens the mother up to charges for harming the fetus through her actions. Should mothers who smoke or drink be charged with poisoning the fetus? What about if they do it before they know they're pregnant and stop afterward?

I don't support abortion up until the moment of birth, but IMHO a fetus should not be a legal person until it's actually born.

I agree, but I do believe if it is born and has fetal alcohol syndrome or damage from smoking, it should be taken away immediately.

Taken away... to where, exactly? And why?
From what I know, the most probable fate of a child with FAS in the foster system is so bad that if all the mother did was smoke and drink during pregnancy(knowingly or unknowingly? you didn't specify) I think it'd have better odds staying with her.

I mean, if the infant is born with FAS, it should be in the foster system. There's also birth defects caused by smoking, and those should also get the kid taken from the parents.

So that they can basically grow up never getting adopted and then getting booted out of the system when they hit 18?

[PosthumanHeresy]

The guy is a sack of shit, but I'm against legally treating a fetus as a separate person because it gives the anti-abortion advocates ammunition. "How can it be murder when someone else kills a fetus, but not when an abortion doctor does it?" It also opens the mother up to charges for harming the fetus through her actions. Should mothers who smoke or drink be charged with poisoning the fetus? What about if they do it before they know they're pregnant and stop afterward?

I don't support abortion up until the moment of birth, but IMHO a fetus should not be a legal person until it's actually born.

I agree, but I do believe if it is born and has fetal alcohol syndrome or damage from smoking, it should be taken away immediately.

Taken away... to where, exactly? And why?
From what I know, the most probable fate of a child with FAS in the foster system is so bad that if all the mother did was smoke and drink during pregnancy(knowingly or unknowingly? you didn't specify) I think it'd have better odds staying with her.

I mean, if the infant is born with FAS, it should be in the foster system. There's also birth defects caused by smoking, and those should also get the kid taken from the parents.

So that they can basically grow up never getting adopted and then getting booted out of the system when they hit 18?

Or, alternatively, grow up in a household that clearly does not give a single solitary flying shit about them, as proven by the fact that their mother chose to drink. I'd obviously want them to aim to place the child with family that isn't idiots, though. But, if the options are abusive family or system kid, I'd prefer system kid, because there's a chance for hope. It's not like we can just kill FAS babies. That would likely be considered unethical and evil. So, our options are to leave them with a mom who gives not a fuck, or try to find family or a loving alternative family.