Miss Universe allows trans contestants

[Her3tiK]

All I said was I don't understand the desire to undergo gender reassignment procedures, and that I can usually tell the difference between pre- and post-op (at least when they started male biologically) because of certain features like more defined jawlines. However that got warped into some kind of bigotry on my end is beyond me, but others have already pointed out that you're wrong, so I've got no reason to even debate this with you.

[Diamandahagan]

no, i read all their posts.

Then did you read this part?

Her3tik didn't say anything about thinking they looked weird -- just that the idea of surgery was weird.

Because seriously, you're going on attack dog mode over someone who wasn't saying what you thought they said.

so thinking that trans related surgery is wird isnt a light form of transphobia?

[Witchyjoshy]

no, i read all their posts.

Then did you read this part?

Her3tik didn't say anything about thinking they looked weird -- just that the idea of surgery was weird.

Because seriously, you're going on attack dog mode over someone who wasn't saying what you thought they said.

so thinking that trans related surgery is wird isnt a light form of transphobia?

No, it isn't.  It simply means that he doesn't understand it.  Because it isn't easy to understand these things.

It's an incredibly complex subject.  Even for allies.

If he called people weird for seeking it, THAT would be transphobia.

[Diamandahagan]

All I said was I don't understand the desire to undergo gender reassignment procedures, and that I can usually tell the difference between pre- and post-op (at least when they started male biologically) because of certain features like more defined jawlines. However that got warped into some kind of bigotry on my end is beyond me, but others have already pointed out that you're wrong, so I've got no reason to even debate this with you.

you THINK you can tell trans people from cis people because you have an prejudicial idea of what each of those groups look like. the trans people who dont fit your idea of trans get sorted under cis by you. you CANNOT claim to usually be able to tell the difference because you are dealign with an unknown amount who dont look obviously trans. your argument is stupid.

and theres a difference between not understanding something and calling it weird. one of those things attempts to belittle the thing your talking bout, the other doesnt.

[Diamandahagan]

no, i read all their posts.

Then did you read this part?

Her3tik didn't say anything about thinking they looked weird -- just that the idea of surgery was weird.

Because seriously, you're going on attack dog mode over someone who wasn't saying what you thought they said.

so thinking that trans related surgery is wird isnt a light form of transphobia?

No, it isn't.  It simply means that he doesn't understand it.  Because it isn't easy to understand these things.

It's an incredibly complex subject.  Even for allies.

If he called people weird for seeking it, THAT would be transphobia.

theres a difference between not understanding something and calling it weird. one involves belittling the thing, one doesnt. its not an important or particularly dangerous form of transphobia but its transphobia. and you dont get a pass from it because you call yourself an ally.

[Witchyjoshy]

Okay, Diamandahagan, forgive me for this, but you're being awfully naive.

The fact of the matter is, for men who transition later in life, YES, there are physical differences in the bones, and sometimes, these things are visible.

Also, usually != always.  He admits that there are times he can't tell the difference with that.

Diamanda, we have MANY trans people on this forum.  And many more allies.  I'm one of these allies.  And so is he.

I'm just going to flat out say it, you're overreacting to him.  Making a mountain out of a molehill.

Calm down.  Take a deep breath.  This isn't worth the energy.

And no, calling something weird isn't an attempt to belittle it.  I'm weird.  I'm strange.  And I'm proud of those things.  Because it makes me who I am.

[ironbite]

Really?  REALLY?  Hagan is being naive?

Ironbite-I'm not minion material but I'll gladly take Zartan level pay for ya.

[Witchyjoshy]

Really?  REALLY?  Hagan is being naive?

Are you denying that she's overreacting?

[Diamandahagan]

Okay, Diamandahagan, forgive me for this, but you're being awfully naive.

The fact of the matter is, for men who transition later in life, YES, there are physical differences in the bones, and sometimes, these things are visible.

Also, usually != always.  He admits that there are times he can't tell the difference with that.

Diamanda, we have MANY trans people on this forum.  And many more allies.  I'm one of these allies.  And so is he.

I'm just going to flat out say it, you're overreacting to him.  Making a mountain out of a molehill.

Calm down.  Take a deep breath.  This isn't worth the energy.

And no, calling something weird isn't an attempt to belittle it.  I'm weird.  I'm strange.  And I'm proud of those things.  Because it makes me who I am.

i am not denying tha\t testosterone causes changes that make a lot of transwomen to be read as trans. im taking issue with his declaration that he can usually tell. no he cant, he just thinks he can because he doesnt think of the trans women he meets that dont 'seem' trans as trans. he has no idea about the amount of trans people he sees and doesnt realise are trans because he doesnt realise their trans. id say its massive bit of confirmation bias on his part but he's not just ignoring his failure, but has no way at all to keep track of them.

Iv heard a lot of horrible things from 'allies' towards the group their meant to be allying with. forgive me if being told that someones as an ally doesnt fill me with confidence. i dont think he's going to go around being horrible to trans people deliberately but i think he has a blindspot of light anti-trans issues.

maybe i am over-reacting but if someone who described themself as a gay ally said homosexuality was weird im pretty sure i wouldnt be the only one complaining about it. yes i know he didnt say transsexuality was weird, but theres no gay equivalent of srs to compare it with.

[Witchyjoshy]

I think heterosexual sex is weird.

That being said, if you want to point out a fault of his, this isn't the way to do it.  You're acting like an attack dog, overreacting, and making a big deal out of it.  People are much less likely to listen to anyone who's flat-out attacking them.

Don't attack.  Inform.  There's a big difference.  One will get you listened to.  The other will not.

If he made a mistake, treating him like an enemy isn't the way to correct his mistake.  And you've been treating him like an enemy.  You've made absolutely no attempt at treating him like someone who made a simple mistake.

[Diamandahagan]

well whether i am actually low-level net personality diamanda hagan and whether i am in real life isnt really the important thing right now. all that matter are the arguments, as loud or badly thought out as mine well be.

[Witchyjoshy]

^ That makes me more inclined to believe you are the real Diamandahagan then, though I'm not 100% convinced simply by default (no offense, it's just how the internet works)

[ironbite]

Really?  REALLY?  Hagan is being naive?

Are you denying that she's overreacting?

Yes I am.  This is an issue that is so near and dear to her heart, I think that you'd be able to offer just a touch of sympathy for her.

Ironbite-people fear what is different and often try to mold them into a shape that's more familier....ususally with a sledgehammer.

[Diamandahagan]

the t community gets shit on a lot by people who see themselves as allies. often people form the lg and b communitys. maybe im being over emotional but i think i have a point. no matter how crap it is.

[Witchyjoshy]

Really?  REALLY?  Hagan is being naive?

Are you denying that she's overreacting?

Yes I am.  This is an issue that is so near and dear to her heart, I think that you'd be able to offer just a touch of sympathy for her.

Ironbite-people fear what is different and often try to mold them into a shape that's more familier....ususally with a sledgehammer.

Um... people are actually MORE likely to overreact about issues near and dear to their heart.

I should know.  I'm the king of overreacting to issues

That being said, I do sympathize with her, actually.  That doesn't mean I can necessarily condone her actions.

The point's moot now, though.