Anders Brevick insane according to prosecution

[Fpqxz]

The sad thing here is that there are no winners in a case like this.  Breivik believed he could stop the Islamization of Europe by killing a bunch of kids at a retreat.  Now the kids are dead, Breivik is going away for life, and his cause is irrevocably tarnished by his stupid and violent actions.

So what you're saying is that is he was declared insane it would hurt his cult more than being not insane?

No, just the opposite in fact.  I'm saying that the horrific nature of his offense has already removed whatever legitimacy his political cause may have had, at least in the eyes of the political elite and most of the general public.

Seriously, Breivik killed a bunch of kids.  I see this as little more than the European version of Timothy McVeigh.  McVeigh blew up the Murrah Federal Building in OKC to protest what he felt was an unaccountable Federal government.  And what happened afterwards?  A bunch of civilians (including children) died, the militia movement got a ton of negative publicity, and McVeigh got a shot of the joy juice at Terre Haute Federal Prison.  Nobody won, everybody lost.

I'm not sure what you mean by "cult"; to the best of my knowledge, Breivik acted alone.

[Cerim Treascair]

I swear to Odin's Hammer, Fpqxz, if you start going on about how multiculturalism is bad again...

First of all, I have just as much right to my opinion as you have to yours.  The multiculturalism thing wasn't even the central point of my post.

Secondly, what are you going to do, beat me up over the internet?

If you have an actual objection to anything I've posted, you're welcome to go ahead and refute it.  Otherwise follow your own damn advice.

EDIT:  My spelling sux0rz

I'm impressed.  I'm actually at a loss for words from your abject idiocy.  I'm tired of you.  Go away.

[Fpqxz]

I'm impressed.  I'm actually at a loss for words from your abject idiocy.  I'm tired of you.  Go away.

[kefkaownsall]

The sad thing here is that there are no winners in a case like this.  Breivik believed he could stop the Islamization of Europe by killing a bunch of kids at a retreat.  Now the kids are dead, Breivik is going away for life, and his cause is irrevocably tarnished by his stupid and violent actions.

So what you're saying is that is he was declared insane it would hurt his cult more than being not insane?

Ultimately Brevick being sane hurts his case because he is showing that sometimes Christians are as bad as Muslims

[Cataclysm]

The sad thing here is that there are no winners in a case like this.  Breivik believed he could stop the Islamization of Europe by killing a bunch of kids at a retreat.  Now the kids are dead, Breivik is going away for life, and his cause is irrevocably tarnished by his stupid and violent actions.

So what you're saying is that is he was declared insane it would hurt his cult more than being not insane?

No, just the opposite in fact.  I'm saying that the horrific nature of his offense has already removed whatever legitimacy his political cause may have had, at least in the eyes of the political elite and most of the general public.

Seriously, Breivik killed a bunch of kids.  I see this as little more than the European version of Timothy McVeigh.  McVeigh blew up the Murrah Federal Building in OKC to protest what he felt was an unaccountable Federal government.  And what happened afterwards?  A bunch of civilians (including children) died, the militia movement got a ton of negative publicity, and McVeigh got a shot of the joy juice at Terre Haute Federal Prison.  Nobody won, everybody lost.

I'm not sure what you mean by "cult"; to the best of my knowledge, Breivik acted alone.

I'm sure there are plenty of racist and sectarian groups that view Breivik in a high regard and would be willing to kill more people to advance it.

I'm not sure what legitimacy segregation and bigotry has, but every group has its extremes.

The sad thing here is that there are no winners in a case like this.  Breivik believed he could stop the Islamization of Europe by killing a bunch of kids at a retreat.  Now the kids are dead, Breivik is going away for life, and his cause is irrevocably tarnished by his stupid and violent actions.

So what you're saying is that is he was declared insane it would hurt his cult more than being not insane?

Ultimately Brevick being sane hurts his case because he is showing that sometimes Christians are as bad as Muslims

He was an agnostic and at most a very liberal Christian. I think being insane hurts his cause because it makes the racist sexist, ect people look crazy-and rightfully so.

[Fpqxz]

No, just the opposite in fact.  I'm saying that the horrific nature of his offense has already removed whatever legitimacy his political cause may have had, at least in the eyes of the political elite and most of the general public.

Seriously, Breivik killed a bunch of kids.  I see this as little more than the European version of Timothy McVeigh.  McVeigh blew up the Murrah Federal Building in OKC to protest what he felt was an unaccountable Federal government.  And what happened afterwards?  A bunch of civilians (including children) died, the militia movement got a ton of negative publicity, and McVeigh got a shot of the joy juice at Terre Haute Federal Prison.  Nobody won, everybody lost.

I'm not sure what you mean by "cult"; to the best of my knowledge, Breivik acted alone.

I'm sure there are plenty of racist and sectarian groups that view Breivik in a high regard and would be willing to kill more people to advance it.

I'm not sure what legitimacy segregation and bigotry has, but every group has its extremes.

Sure, there are probably people who sympathize with Breivik, just as there were (and still are) those who sympathize with Timothy McVeigh, or Osama Bin Laden, or {insert name of terrorist/criminal here}.  Hell, here in the NY/NJ metro area, there are people who will get all misty-eyed and nostalgic about the glory days of the Mafia.

You can't really avoid having a few isolated individuals or groups latching onto stuff like this.  But the general population tends not to like these sorts of acts of mass violence, which is why I said what I said about Breivik's legitimacy slipping away long before the insanity decision.

Truth be told, at this point, I think the controversy is less about how the insanity decision will make Breivik look, and more about whether or not the guy was actually mentally ill, or capable of conceiving of the wrongness of his actions.  I know very little about Norwegian criminal law, but I'm sure that their insanity standard is quite different from what the Common Law-based countries use.

EDIT:  clarification

[sandman]

While I would surely agree that the minimum and medium security institutions in Scandinavia are certainly, by US standards, pretty easy time, no maximum security institution is a cake walk, no matter where it is.

Plus, like pretty much all prison systems in the world, there are significant gang issues in the prisons, and of course those gangs all fall along racial/religious boundaries. Brevik gets sent to actual prison and he will have to deal with the Muslim gangs, probably by being welcomed into the Aryan ones. This is a prisoner who will simply have no choice but to get heavily involved in gang activity in prison, which is pretty much a gift-wrapped invitation to extend his sentence indefinitely beyond 22 years. Not that I think for a moment he would actually survive two decades. That's a long time to be watching over your shoulder 24/7 for a shank with your name on it.

[Fpqxz]

While I would surely agree that the minimum and medium security institutions in Scandinavia are certainly, by US standards, pretty easy time, no maximum security institution is a cake walk, no matter where it is.

Plus, like pretty much all prison systems in the world, there are significant gang issues in the prisons, and of course those gangs all fall along racial/religious boundaries. Brevik gets sent to actual prison and he will have to deal with the Muslim gangs, probably by being welcomed into the Aryan ones. This is a prisoner who will simply have no choice but to get heavily involved in gang activity in prison, which is pretty much a gift-wrapped invitation to extend his sentence indefinitely beyond 22 years. Not that I think for a moment he would actually survive two decades. That's a long time to be watching over your shoulder 24/7 for a shank with your name on it.

Unless, of course, he is placed in solitary confinement/administrative segregation or some sort of protective custody.  In which case, his main enemy would be boredom and depression.  I know if I were to go to prison, I would pick AdSeg over GenPop any fucking day of the week.

Given the politically sensitive nature of this case, I wouldn't be surprised if this is the treatment he would get if he were to go to prison.

[Auri-El]

As long as he's locked up and can't hurt anyone else, who cares what more happens to him? He's a monster and deserves whatever shit he gets.

[ironbite]

The sad thing here is that there are no winners in a case like this.  Breivik believed he could stop the Islamization of Europe by killing a bunch of kids at a retreat.  Now the kids are dead, Breivik is going away for life, and his cause is irrevocably tarnished by his stupid and violent actions.

So what you're saying is that is he was declared insane it would hurt his cult more than being not insane?

No, just the opposite in fact.  I'm saying that the horrific nature of his offense has already removed whatever legitimacy his political cause may have had, at least in the eyes of the political elite and most of the general public.

Point to make...there is no legitimacy in this or any other cause protesting what is essentially the political destiny of the world.  It's change for the better and I for one welcome it with open arms.

Ironbite-arms that will crush out any stupidity.

[Witchyjoshy]

He's a monster and deserves whatever shit he gets.

I would be careful not to dehumanize him to the point where you become like him.

[kefkaownsall]

Point of reference he called himself a templar and other Christian terms.   So I dunno not putting him in prison could hurt Norway's image abroad.

[Auri-El]

He's a monster and deserves whatever shit he gets.

I would be careful not to dehumanize him to the point where you become like him.

There's a difference between saying Breivik is a monster and saying all Christians are monsters because Breivik is Christian. Anyone who deliberately hurts children is a monster and deserves to rot in prison. I don't give a damn what happens to him. I have absolutely no sympathy for people who hurt children. That doesn't mean I'm going to become like him, hating entire groups of people for the actions of a few.

[Witchyjoshy]

He's a monster and deserves whatever shit he gets.

I would be careful not to dehumanize him to the point where you become like him.

There's a difference between saying Breivik is a monster and saying all Christians are monsters because Breivik is Christian. Anyone who deliberately hurts children is a monster and deserves to rot in prison. I don't give a damn what happens to him. I have absolutely no sympathy for people who hurt children. That doesn't mean I'm going to become like him, hating entire groups of people for the actions of a few.

I wasn't talking about Christians as a group, I was talking about Breivik.

Dehumanizing people, especially criminals, is dangerous.  It leads to situations like privatized prisons where humans are exploited for slave labor -- and that's okay with the civilians because "they're just criminals after all"

Oh, sure, he's an extremely dangerous man who needs to be locked away for the rest of his life.  That much is certain.  But remember that he is human.  A potentially insane human, but a human nonetheless.

[kefkaownsall]

Actually Zach in Norway many prisons especially the min to mid level ones do have the prisoners go through actual rehab and job training.  Like there is this Island with Ipods pay phones where they teach them actual skills