Anders Brevick insane according to prosecution

[Witchyjoshy]

Actually Zach in Norway many prisons especially the min to mid level ones do have the prisoners go through actual rehab and job training.  Like there is this Island with Ipods pay phones where they teach them actual skills

That's good.  Teaching people who do not fit into society to, well, fit into society is always a good thing.

Norway's judicial system seems to have a good head on their shoulders.  Seems to.

That's not quite the same thing as slavery, where prisoners are exploited for hard labor to the point where their physical health suffers, not to mention their mental health.

[Auri-El]

There's a difference between saying Breivik is a monster and saying all Christians are monsters because Breivik is Christian. Anyone who deliberately hurts children is a monster and deserves to rot in prison. I don't give a damn what happens to him. I have absolutely no sympathy for people who hurt children. That doesn't mean I'm going to become like him, hating entire groups of people for the actions of a few.

I wasn't talking about Christians as a group, I was talking about Breivik.


Dehumanizing people, especially criminals, is dangerous.  It leads to situations like privatized prisons where humans are exploited for slave labor -- and that's okay with the civilians because "they're just criminals after all"


Oh, sure, he's an extremely dangerous man who needs to be locked away for the rest of his life.  That much is certain.  But remember that he is human.  A potentially insane human, but a human nonetheless.

I know you meant just Breivik. I was arguing that calling one person a monster does not lead to dehumanizing an entire group. I do get the problem with seeing criminals as lesser. I hadn't considered that. But I do want to say, in my defense, I don't see all criminals as being the same, either.

Anyway, I only meant that I'm not going to care too much if he experiences boredom-induced depression or gets himself in trouble with a rival gang or something. He's brought all that on himself. Someone in jail for something ridiculous, like a minor drug offense or libel, they shouldn't go through any of that.


Edit: adding quotes for clarification.

[Witchyjoshy]

Fair enough, then.

Personally, I don't care what happens to him, just as long as what rights he maintains aren't violated.

I doubt he'll ever be able to fit into society, so indefinite imprisonment sounds like the best option.

[sandman]

  I know if I were to go to prison, I would pick AdSeg over GenPop any fucking day of the week.

Amen to that, my brother.

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

At this point I'm seriously scratching my head, how did a discussion on this guy lead to people suggesting that his "cause" was tarnished by his actions? The guy was a xenophobic bigot, his "cause" is the cause that threw Europe into the second world war.

I mean this was the creep that wept, not for his victims but for his stupid anti-Muslim propaganda screed film. That's his cause, piss on that cause!

Frankly I don't want this asshole raped in jail, shanked, tortured, bashed or anything else. I'm not lowering myself to his level and I don't like the idea of that happening to anybody. That said I DO think the option where he gets put away in perpetuity is the best one. Can't shoot any more kids that way!

[The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist]

Frankly I don't want this asshole raped in jail, shanked, tortured, bashed or anything else. I'm not lowering myself to his level and I don't like the idea of that happening to anybody. That said I DO think the option where he gets put away in perpetuity is the best one. Can't shoot any more kids that way!

This. Lock the bastard away, throw away the key, and move on with life, without letting him hold anyone back.

[Søren]

Honestly. It doesn't matter to me if he is tortured and his "human rights" are violated. Kill 77 people, your life and everything about you is forfeit

S'all I have to say on this matter

[Keiro Dreamwalker]

I'm impressed.  I'm actually at a loss for words from your abject idiocy.  I'm tired of you.  Go away.

AdminHat On

This is your Official Warning. Knock it off. Stop antagonizing people. I wasn't sure if you were unintentionally antagonizing people... but now, I'm pretty sure. And it's pissing me off.

Knock It Off.

[DrFishcake]

The jaded cynic in me wonders: Is Breivik bullshitting everyone? I mean, he's making grandstanding statements that he's not insane, rather he's ideologically driven (as if the latter precludes the former), while at the same time coming out with the most ludicrous statements about Sex and the City and Eurovision. He says that to be ruled insane and committed for the rest of his life would be the worst thing ever then acts in a way that makes just such a thing inevitable.

[Sylvana]

The jaded cynic in me wonders: Is Breivik bullshitting everyone? I mean, he's making grandstanding statements that he's not insane, rather he's ideologically driven (as if the latter precludes the former), while at the same time coming out with the most ludicrous statements about Sex and the City and Eurovision. He says that to be ruled insane and committed for the rest of his life would be the worst thing ever then acts in a way that makes just such a thing inevitable.

Given his actions, and his lack of any remorse or empathy it is a reasonably easy call to say that he is insane. While we all find his actions to be that of a terrorist and despicable. I cannot help but feel that Breivik is well and truly crazy. After all, this is a man who honestly believes that killing a bunch of children will somehow stop Islamic immigrants from entering the country, and he further believes that history will remember him as a hero. He is clearly delusional, and probably sociopathic.

While the sane and insane pleas may be grounded in judicial tactics, the pleas themselves do not seem to be wrong. If he was to be sent to prison even with the knowledge that he would be considered a threat and kept beyond 22 years, wouldn't it be the same as saying someone like him is a perfectly sane and normal member of society?

While we all want him to rot away in some small corner isn't the most correct thing to do is actually treat him for his psychosis?

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

Given his actions, and his lack of any remorse or empathy it is a reasonably easy call to say that he is insane. While we all find his actions to be that of a terrorist and despicable. I cannot help but feel that Breivik is well and truly crazy. After all, this is a man who honestly believes that killing a bunch of children will somehow stop Islamic immigrants from entering the country, and he further believes that history will remember him as a hero. He is clearly delusional, and probably sociopathic. While the sane and insane pleas may be grounded in judicial tactics, the pleas themselves do not seem to be wrong. If he was to be sent to prison even with the knowledge that he would be considered a threat and kept beyond 22 years, wouldn't it be the same as saying someone like him is a perfectly sane and normal member of society?

While we all want him to rot away in some small corner isn't the most correct thing to do is actually treat him for his psychosis?

Where do you draw the line between a toxic ideology and a psychosis? Do you declare it to be psychosis if only one idiot is doing it and an ideology of there are ten or more? Plenty of people do things in the name of "causes" that can seem completely psychotic, setting themselves on fire, strapping bombs to themselves and letting them off near men, women and children, raping and torturing people during wartime. What's the line of delineation between a mad act and a bad act for a "cause"?

[Cerim Treascair]

A quote from my Norwegian friend that was personally affected by this, via her LJ:

"The prosecution has asked for psychiatric care. From their closing argument it is clear that they are not certain he was/is psychotic, that they are very much in doubt, but that the doubt should be in favour of the accused. This of course is a very important principle of the law in terms of guilt, but others have argued that while guilt demands beyond a reasonable doubt, the demand to prove sanity is much lower and should be based on probability. What the judges decide, we shall see. He'll be put away for good in any case.

Of course, Breivik did his sanity claim no favours in his final remarks, which included going off on how Sex and the City represents a disease of sexual liberation, how sending Eurovision entries with contestants that had other ethnic backgrounds in addition to Norwegian is a mockery of all Norwegians, how he's not a child murderer because the average age of those he killed was over 18 (nevermind that he murdered two 14-year-old and a lot of others that were below 18), that calling him so is an act of treason, how the best solution would have been to give him and people of similar opinion their own country to rule but if they don't get it they will have to take over other countris, how history and his 'brothers' will judge and how another attack can come from his 'brothers' (the implied threat if we find him guilty) and kill as many as 40.000. All of this of course is to him defense of his murder of 77 people."

For those interested in my friend's posts, she's misscam on LJ.

[Sylvana]

Where do you draw the line between a toxic ideology and a psychosis? Do you declare it to be psychosis if only one idiot is doing it and an ideology of there are ten or more? Plenty of people do things in the name of "causes" that can seem completely psychotic, setting themselves on fire, strapping bombs to themselves and letting them off near men, women and children, raping and torturing people during wartime. What's the line of delineation between a mad act and a bad act for a "cause"?

Much for the same reason that listening to heavy metal music does not cause kids to go on killing sprees at school, having a toxic ideology does not mean that a person will go on a killing rampage. As has been pointed out, he was regularly conversing online with a group of others who shared his ideology. The point is that they shared his ideals but did not go on a rampage that killed 77 people.

The point you make about people doing bad things during times of war is a good one though, and I agree that during times of duress people do bad things. There are a number of factors involved including group think, social stigma and prestige as well as plain base survivalist instincts.

The point I am trying to make with Brevick is that despite having a toxic ideology and actually acting out in such a horrific manner (also note, you cant really call his actions a result of acting under external stresses, Norway is a peaceful country.) His cold pride and guilt free belief that what he did was right is what sets him apart. It shows a remarkable lack of empathy on his part which is a pretty good sign of sociopathy. Further his belief that he will be remembered as a hero despite the fact that even if his attack somehow did manage to stop all immigration he would still be seen as a murderer is a clear indication of personal delusion.

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

I guess no one can say that this particular nasty was acting under any kind of duress.