Author Topic: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?  (Read 12181 times)

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Offline Barbarella

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Re: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2013, 11:09:47 am »
Progressives are winning, for the most part.  It is just that things are going slow right now.  Part of that is because the baby boomer generation is having its last gasps of power.  We already see that a good number of GOP members have accepted things like gay marriage and immigration reform.

The area's where progressives are losing are in the abortion debate and when it comes to unions.  Abortions, well no one is a fan of abortions.  So the women's right argument can be a tough one when the potential life of child is on the line.  Unions, well unions have made some mistakes and even some progressives see that they have harmed some of the industries they are in.  I'm not saying unions are bad, but they can make bad decisions.

True. In those cases, I think we need to find a way to educate the public. We can tell folks that over 90% percent of abortions are very early in the First Trimester....and show photos of a typical abortion (a petri dish full of specks of meaningless stuff). If schools refuse to teach sex-ed & safer sex practices then independent groups should (for the time being, until we can get the schools to wise up).

We need to admit that much of the Tealiban "plays dumb". They're not as stupid or crazy as they seem. It's a strategy of theirs. They want us to laugh at & dismiss them as a threat.

Finally, many of the common folk of the "Red State" variety are well-meaning, average Janes & Joes who are simply dupes. Perhaps if we reached out to them as friends, fellow citizens & whatnot, many may slowly become open to the truth. Part of why they don't listen to us is that they see us a snotballs who look down on them & compare them to the hillbillies in Deliverance. Sure, there's a number that will never change & a few that are macho deranged types but most are regular people like us.

Offline Her3tiK

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Re: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2013, 12:13:32 pm »
The problem is there is no liberal party in the US. Both dominant parties are bought and paid for, and they're not about to upset the people who bribe them to maintain the status quo. The closest we've got is the Greens, and, like the other 3rd parties, have so little support that they're a joke. The few democrats with backbones since I've started paying attention (Anthony Wiener, Alan Grayson, Elizabeth Warren) have either ruined their careers through pointless scandal, or had to make their case alone, without the support of their colleagues or the "liberal" media.

Yes, liberals win on social issues. And we always will, because we're more willing to accept change and differences between people and lifestyles. That has nothing to do with people in power redefining marriage as a legal contract, or who has a full vote, or who can use the drinking fountain. It has everything to do with us wanting to move forward as a people, instead of holding on to the "good ol' days" because change is scary.
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Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2013, 08:09:37 pm »
I've joked before, the world would be a better place if the death panels were real. The thing is, Democrats do their damndest to be nice, despite that killing them. Bipartisanship can go get fucked by Godzilla. More importantly, though, liberals are individualistic. You ask ten liberals their opinion on something and you'll get eleven opinions. You ask ten conservatives, you'll get the same answer every time. The truth of the matter is, liberals suck at dogma. We are awful at unity, and while there is good from that (creativity, for one), it means we suck at politics. Additionally, intelligence makes that even harder. Idiots can be unified via fear. The intelligent will see right through it.

However, there's hope. This is the death throes of a dying generation, and one I won't mourn. The sixties wounded Conservatism, the 70s and 80s healed it, and the 90s emptied a tommy gun into it. The 1990s was the last time blaming music, video games, film or television was an extremely mainstream thing. That may seem minor, but it's a giant step forward in the culture war. They've failed to convince people that our culture is evil and causes death. They failed to win. In the 1970s, bands like Kiss and musicians like Alice Cooper were seen as horrible by the right wing, and protested violently. In the 1980s, it was bands like Twisted Sister, and Dee Snider actually went and testified to Congress (and mocked Al Gore's wife to his face) in one of the best speeches given to them, and he was in the same clothing that he wore at a concert the night before. In the 1990s, well, Mortal Kombat, Doom and Marilyn Manson (although, protesters have been showing up to his shows again lately). If you told the protesters in the 1970s that Alice Cooper and Kiss would be mainstream, they'd call bullshit. If you told them in the 1980s that Twisted Sister would be mainstream and norma, they'd call bullshit. If you told them in the 1990s that Mortal Kombat and Doom would be outdated and silly, and Marilyn Manson is (intentionally, without changing himself) mainstream, they'd flip out. The fact of the matter is, that which is shocking is mainstream a decade later (and may be mocking the mainstream, like when America's Next Top Model was allowed to use "The Beautiful People" because he knew they obviously didn't know it was insulting them).

The most evil thing Osama ever did was 9/11, not just for the death, but for the fact it delayed America's societal advancement for so long. Had it not been for him, we'd be so much further ahead. Bush would have been the first four year president since Bush. 9/11 wasn't an inside job, but it was the most lucky Bush ever was. Or, really, Dick Cheney. Dicky was running the show, and he set that up himself. Dick Cheney was in charge of selecting Bush's VP, after all. Osama was the hiccough that fucked shit up. We're slowly getting back on track, and advancing as usual. We're a society you can't even shock, at this point. Shock's deader than dead. All you can be is confusing. That's the biggest sign of open-mindedness. Entertainment Tonight did a story a few years back (I swear, it was accidental that I even saw this) where they were talking about the FCC. They proceeded to swear like normal people during it, and during the credits, the hosts went something along the lines of "So, do you think they believe it was real?" with the (obviously bleeped) reply being "They'll never fucking know". It wasn't a scandal or controversy. Imagine them doing that in the 1990s.

As the elderly die, and the oldest generation is Generation X, we'll see the world change. Remember, Generation X is what gave us the 1990s. They gave us Doom, Mortal Kombat, classic MTV, Industrial Metal, South Park and more. Stewart and Colbert are X. Obama is X. So, imagine how things will be when they're the ruling class, with them being the tenured ancient ones in Congress and the Senate, and the majority of voters are X, Y and Z?
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Offline Barbarella

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Re: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2013, 10:52:42 pm »
I've joked before, the world would be a better place if the death panels were real. The thing is, Democrats do their damndest to be nice, despite that killing them. Bipartisanship can go get fucked by Godzilla. More importantly, though, liberals are individualistic. You ask ten liberals their opinion on something and you'll get eleven opinions. You ask ten conservatives, you'll get the same answer every time. The truth of the matter is, liberals suck at dogma. We are awful at unity, and while there is good from that (creativity, for one), it means we suck at politics. Additionally, intelligence makes that even harder. Idiots can be unified via fear. The intelligent will see right through it.

However, there's hope. This is the death throes of a dying generation, and one I won't mourn. The sixties wounded Conservatism, the 70s and 80s healed it, and the 90s emptied a tommy gun into it. The 1990s was the last time blaming music, video games, film or television was an extremely mainstream thing. That may seem minor, but it's a giant step forward in the culture war. They've failed to convince people that our culture is evil and causes death. They failed to win. In the 1970s, bands like Kiss and musicians like Alice Cooper were seen as horrible by the right wing, and protested violently. In the 1980s, it was bands like Twisted Sister, and Dee Snider actually went and testified to Congress (and mocked Al Gore's wife to his face) in one of the best speeches given to them, and he was in the same clothing that he wore at a concert the night before. In the 1990s, well, Mortal Kombat, Doom and Marilyn Manson (although, protesters have been showing up to his shows again lately). If you told the protesters in the 1970s that Alice Cooper and Kiss would be mainstream, they'd call bullshit. If you told them in the 1980s that Twisted Sister would be mainstream and norma, they'd call bullshit. If you told them in the 1990s that Mortal Kombat and Doom would be outdated and silly, and Marilyn Manson is (intentionally, without changing himself) mainstream, they'd flip out. The fact of the matter is, that which is shocking is mainstream a decade later (and may be mocking the mainstream, like when America's Next Top Model was allowed to use "The Beautiful People" because he knew they obviously didn't know it was insulting them).

The most evil thing Osama ever did was 9/11, not just for the death, but for the fact it delayed America's societal advancement for so long. Had it not been for him, we'd be so much further ahead. Bush would have been the first four year president since Bush. 9/11 wasn't an inside job, but it was the most lucky Bush ever was. Or, really, Dick Cheney. Dicky was running the show, and he set that up himself. Dick Cheney was in charge of selecting Bush's VP, after all. Osama was the hiccough that fucked shit up. We're slowly getting back on track, and advancing as usual. We're a society you can't even shock, at this point. Shock's deader than dead. All you can be is confusing. That's the biggest sign of open-mindedness. Entertainment Tonight did a story a few years back (I swear, it was accidental that I even saw this) where they were talking about the FCC. They proceeded to swear like normal people during it, and during the credits, the hosts went something along the lines of "So, do you think they believe it was real?" with the (obviously bleeped) reply being "They'll never fucking know". It wasn't a scandal or controversy. Imagine them doing that in the 1990s.

As the elderly die, and the oldest generation is Generation X, we'll see the world change. Remember, Generation X is what gave us the 1990s. They gave us Doom, Mortal Kombat, classic MTV, Industrial Metal, South Park and more. Stewart and Colbert are X. Obama is X. So, imagine how things will be when they're the ruling class, with them being the tenured ancient ones in Congress and the Senate, and the majority of voters are X, Y and Z?

And I'm more than happy to be part of that Generation. To share the same Generation as Stewart, Colbert & the President Of The United States, himself is an honor. And the younger generations are even more forward.

It started with a few Boomers but truly began to grow with the Busters (Baby Busters - Gen X) but it's the Buster's younger siblings & children who will bring it to fruition.

As for the Dems, I agree they can be corporate-owned, too. However, most usually are better folks than the GOP & I think the most spineless, ineffective ones are the Blue Dogs, that is, the GOP-lite Pseudo-Democrats (Democratic in name but GOP in practice). I think it's the Blue Dogs we should blame & make sure not to elect more in the future.

What we need are Green Dogs! Greens in Democratic clothing! No one will vote in a Green but they will vote a Democrat. Heck, if the Republican Party can go Far-Right crazy until they're no loner Republican then I can't see why the Greens can't just all become Democrats & Liberalize the Dems.

I think someone should create a bright, colorful, to-the-point, short-attention-span-friendly guide to candidates, their stats, their positions, their history, etc. so folks will be able to tell who they are REALLY voting for (thus preventing Blue Dogs & Tealibans from gaining office). Perhaps I can create something. Everyone's like "Why don't you do something" and I should do something.


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Re: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2013, 11:14:05 pm »
Agreed. Actually, to make the Greens point simpler: STOP WITH THE THIRD PARTY SHIT! You idiots that make new parties and the people even more foolish to actually vote for them, stop it. Instead, swarm into the party you like more.
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Offline Barbarella

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Re: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2013, 11:52:07 pm »
Agreed. Actually, to make the Greens point simpler: STOP WITH THE THIRD PARTY SHIT! You idiots that make new parties and the people even more foolish to actually vote for them, stop it. Instead, swarm into the party you like more.

I think we should petition the Green Party headquarters & tell them that. Join the Dems & make the Dems Green! The Greens have the right ideas but they're so non-mainstream that voting for them would be a proxy vote for the Tealiban.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2013, 12:05:05 am »
Quote from: m52nickerson link=topic=4727.msg182900#msg182900
Unions, well unions have made some mistakes and even some progressives see that they have harmed some of the industries they are in.  I'm not saying unions are bad, but they can make bad decisions.
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Re: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2013, 12:16:22 am »
On the subject of generational differences, I feel I should point out that people tend to get more conservative as they age. The baby boomer generation, those supposedly evil arch-conservatives who're the last obstacle between us and a youth-led progressive golden age? They're the Woodstock generation. They're the people who were hippies back in the 60's, fucking anything with a pulse, smoking whatever'll burn, not showering and singing about peace and love. They're the people behind the anti-Vietnam war movement for god's sake.

If any of you think the same thing that happened to every other generation won't happen to ours, once we get a bit older and wealthier, well, then you're incredibly naive to say the least.

Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2013, 12:16:58 am »
. More importantly, though, liberals are individualistic. You ask ten liberals their opinion on something and you'll get eleven opinions.

The joke goes: What do four left-wing activists do inside an elevator? Start four political parties. No, it's not a very good joke. However, it gets across the idea of how the left wing works here (I understand the US is different, but the basic notion remains).

Some of it is a memetic problem. Corporatism, 'the party, right or wrong', etc. tend to  be right-wing ideals, which have their own failings (namely, they silence constructive criticism). The left, observing this in the right, set themselves apart by encouraging individualism, which is great until you're dissenting for the sake of it and can't properly organise worth crap.

It's great to say " I won't stand with group X, because they are getting A, B and C wrong", until you realise that you have six different groups that are 95% identical on their general beliefs fighting among themselves, while the group they disagree with on most things is winning the presidential elections. At some point, you have to tolerate some principled disagreements for the sake of effectiveness.

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Re: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2013, 12:17:22 am »
Agreed. Actually, to make the Greens point simpler: STOP WITH THE THIRD PARTY SHIT! You idiots that make new parties and the people even more foolish to actually vote for them, stop it. Instead, swarm into the party you like more.

I think we should petition the Green Party headquarters & tell them that. Join the Dems & make the Dems Green! The Greens have the right ideas but they're so non-mainstream that voting for them would be a proxy vote for the Tealiban.

And here we go with voting 3rd-party is a sin stuff again. The Democrats hate the progressives within their own party and marginalize them as much as they can. If there is going to be any change, one needs to get money out of politics, and to fix the electoral system.

Also a big problem is that we a lot of people live in a fairytale land that "the American Dream" is real. It's not, and never has been. Not to mention they believe this "Rugged Individual" bs, and think they can make it on their own, forgetting that everyone are interconneted to each other.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 12:24:16 am by Empress Nicki »

Offline Askold

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Re: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2013, 12:33:55 am »
Starting new parties would not be such a bad idea in a different country but the US system is built on stopping any new parties from gaining power. In Finland getting 10% of the votes would get you seats in the parliament and even if they end up in the opposition they would still be able to vote on the parliament and affect things. In USA 10% of votes gets you nothing at all.
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Offline Barbarella

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Re: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2013, 12:43:05 am »
On the subject of generational differences, I feel I should point out that people tend to get more conservative as they age. The baby boomer generation, those supposedly evil arch-conservatives who're the last obstacle between us and a youth-led progressive golden age? They're the Woodstock generation. They're the people who were hippies back in the 60's, fucking anything with a pulse, smoking whatever'll burn, not showering and singing about peace and love. They're the people behind the anti-Vietnam war movement for god's sake.

If any of you think the same thing that happened to every other generation won't happen to ours, once we get a bit older and wealthier, well, then you're incredibly naive to say the least.

First off, not all Baby Boomers were hippies, most were average schmoes who were either moderate, apolitical or conservative. Also, many of the ex-hippie sellouts probably just saw the hippie thing as a matter of rebellion rather than something meaningful or deeper.

Do people tend to get more straight-laced as they get older, sure but keep in mind that many ultra-Liberals of the Sixties are actually fairly open-minded elders of today who look upon their past wilder Flowerkid days with wistful fondness.

Sure, a minority may make a 180 but nonetheless, each generation AS A WHOLE...IN GENERAL...tends to be more Progressive than the next.

Offline dpareja

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Re: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2013, 12:45:47 am »
Starting new parties would not be such a bad idea in a different country but the US system is built on stopping any new parties from gaining power. In Finland getting 10% of the votes would get you seats in the parliament and even if they end up in the opposition they would still be able to vote on the parliament and affect things. In USA 10% of votes gets you nothing at all.

In Canada we have the same screwed-up electoral system as the US (though we don't gerrymander ridings), but we have more than two reasonably competitive parties, since the smaller ones worked to build up a regional power base.
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Re: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2013, 01:15:14 am »
First off, not all Baby Boomers were hippies, most were average schmoes who were either moderate, apolitical or conservative. Also, many of the ex-hippie sellouts probably just saw the hippie thing as a matter of rebellion rather than something meaningful or deeper.

Do people tend to get more straight-laced as they get older, sure but keep in mind that many ultra-Liberals of the Sixties are actually fairly open-minded elders of today who look upon their past wilder Flowerkid days with wistful fondness.

Sure, a minority may make a 180 but nonetheless, each generation AS A WHOLE...IN GENERAL...tends to be more Progressive than the next.

My point is the most conservative generation by far today were in fact overwhelmingly liberal in their youth. Of course they all weren't, it's just silly to say an entire generation has the same political beliefs, but, much like the 20-30 year olds of today, the majority of them were quite liberal and indeed they were far more liberal than any of the older generations of the time. As I said, these are the people that fought tooth and nail to end the Vietnam war, yet provided the majority of political support for Afghanistan and Iraq.

True, each generation is overall a touch less conservative than the last, however that does not mean that there will be some sort of progressive revolution as soon as the old folks retire. Rather, things will continue as normal, progress will occur at a slow and steady pace, some but not all of it being offset by conservative actions and by the time the current crop of young-in's are the old and rich politicians and businessmen of the future, they'll be fighting just as hard for corporate interests over things like consumer rights and the environment and maintaining the general status quo in their favour like every other generation before them. Then when they retire, the cycle will begin afresh.

So yeah, you probably shouldn't expect any "BIG VICTORIES" as you put it anytime soon. You'll only end up disappointed.

Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2013, 02:35:49 am »
I don't know. Things seem different. The Internet is changing things, and it's never going to be the same.
What I used to think was me is just a fading memory. I looked him right in the eye and said "Goodbye".
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Together as one, against all others.
- Marilyn Manson, Running To The Edge of The World

Humanity does learn from history,
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